FanchesterCity

That's so hard to say really.... because of the ground move too... that changed a lot of the atmosphere, probably for the worse (initially) but it was necessary looking back now. Right move really. It's the same fans I suppose, deep down, but now more families are coming which is nice to see, and there's a much nicer family atmosphere in general. However.... there ARE a few younger lads (not the kids, but the early 20s lot I'd say) who are simply young lads.... they are getting a taste of success (relatively) and acting like morons. I don't think it's unique to City, I just think it's the nature of young cocky lads supporting a decent team for a change and bragging - without any sense of history or respect. They'll slag off United (like many Evertonians will do with Liverpool and vice versa) which irritates me. You have to give respect to a quality team and just applaud what they've done. Don't have to LIKE them, but you should at least be honest and acknowledge them etc. And, I'm 10 years older too... so I have changed. 90% of City fans are pessimists.... because it's how we've always lived. Time and again, we've messed up. So it's very very hard to change our mentality. In the last year (and only the last year) I think City are finally starting to believe it doesn't HAVE to be that way, and we're gaining in confidence. It's a very new situation for all of us. And this makes me think of Everton, who, for the large part have had a fairly good team for years, and thus Everton fans (generally) have had a more positive mindset and belief in the team. I know there have been iffy patches, but across the last 40 years, Everton have been a 'best of the rest' team. Just outside the very top (4) and loitering in the top 6. For the first time in a long time, I'm sensing Everton fans losing a little belief (with fair reason), and teams being a little less afraid of Everton than they used to be. It takes years to lose your stoic reputation, but it does look to be slipping a bit of late. I'm sure I'll get stick for this, and I accept that the gulf between United and City is bigger then between Liverpool and Everton, BUT I still think there's a lot of commonality between the fans... in the shadow of another club too often, fans that clearly don't choose the team just because they are the winning the league every year etc. Everton have been a better run club than City in the last 40 years, but now it seems City have had some luck and Everton some back luck. It's a new situation for us both. It will take decades for Everton to lose their stature (if ever) and the same for City to (re)gain it (if ever). But underneath it all, it's just a decent sent of football loving fans on both sides, who are subject to the slings and arrows of fortune. Same as it ever was eh?

I don't think he will be at Everton in a year or two. His dad appears to have quite high hopes for him, and I suspect if Everton don't turn things around soon, he'll be off. I know he's signed a contract but that counts for little these days, but helps Everton get a bit more money. There was talk of Arsenal liking him, but that was all mixed up with the 'not interest in Arteta' story from Wenger.... so might have been a smokescreen, or Wenger settled for second best with Arteta.

Still plenty of good players around, but until Everton's future is more clearly defined I don't think they are as attractive as they could be. Once that's sorted, and Everton are seen to be buying again, many players would want to play for Everton. But Baines to Stoke - no disrespect to Stoke, but Baines is a local lad, best player at the club (imo), looks totally settled.... it would have to be a real fire sale from Everton for it to happen, and there'd be more clubs chomping at the bit for him. It'll take probably another 5 years of Stoke doing well before they get taken seriously as a club to head for when your career is on the 'up' (talking Prem to Prem transfers) - unfair I know, but their reputation is still largely negative (unfairly) and seen as a 'aren't they doing well!' type team, in my opinion.

Wish I'd not bothered trying to do the maths now!... OK, so you paid 12 million (15 million Euro) for Fell, he's been good, but he's not set the world alight. it's 4 years on - you believe he's gone up in value. 30Million is taking the piss too. Lets say you get 20million then? the whole point wasn't to be rating players really... it was 'how much could you get if you sold all 4'... 50 - 60 million? more? less? I suppose there's a couple of ways of looking at it... You either believe there's over 60 million on the pitch with just those 4 (feasible), or you look at it the other way and say "how much for 4 players from a mid table team?".... one who is without doubt pure class (Baines), one that has a lot of potential and COULD be a great, but too early to be sure (Rodwell), a fairly decent defender that's hardly set the world alight (Jags) and a 'rising star' that you paid a record fee for, who has been good at Everton and has generally been very good, but again, hasn't set the world on fire... As for City's buys... massively paid over the odds for most of them. We'd not get anywhere near our money back on 90% of the buys. Some served a purpose quite well, a fair few were total flops and one or two possibly went up in value. The only clubs who (theoretically) are going to be splashing silly money for players would be Chelsea and City, and Fellaini won't be on their list. So who IS going to be forking out 30 million for him? nobody. Maybe I'm totally wrong. As you say, it's very different when you see your own team week in week out and see players that aren't headline makers but are pure class for your team. So, if someone came in with 20 million for him - you'd all say no?

only 4 million workin' on Avin's strategy... sell the best, but get more players (less quality, but more of them). Not saying it would work!!!... just doing the maths regarding the wages and how it theoretically would all work out!

Clearly a decent player, but come on, 30 million? bonkers... pure bonkers. That's Baines @ 30 and Fell @ 30 60 million quids worth of talent.... when you put it like that, THEY have some explaining to do as to why you're where you are. It's not realistic, it's just not. IF someone really really wanted them, then of course you could hold out for a bit and get more, but you're not in a strong selling position really, and he's just not in the 30 million bracket. I do accept plenty of others have been over priced in the past, and you may well be right, that he's so good he's worth it. Surely then, surely, they'll be knocking at the door for him soon?

Let say, and trying to be realistic Baines for 23million Fellaini for 12 million Rodwell for 10 million Jags for 5 million That would be 50 million... a fine amount. Spend 30 million on 8 players (leave 20 million for wages) makes 4 million quid a player (thereabouts) Now, we've saved the wages of the 4 outgoing players, so we're just paying for 4 extra players wages.... 2 players on 50K a week = 200K a week = 0.8 million a month, therefore you'd get 18 months of their services for no additional cost (give or take) 4 good players out, 8 'hopefuls' in.... interesting, very interesting Mr Avin....

You drive a hard bargain sir

Lack of money (fans), poor performances (by Everton's standards), crap weather, issues with the board and general disillusion with the state of football probably all take their toll. Crowds are down in general too. I'm still a bit surprised at how much they've fallen, but can't believe it's all just about team performances

I can see your thinking. Quite radical though and might be seen as the nail in the coffin by some fans (selling the remaining few players of serious quality / potential). Even then, what would Moyes see of the money? He'd have to have 100% of it, but I suspect it might not be so simple... some of the debtors MIGHT have claims on any transfer money before it gets to Moyes (pure speculation, no evidence for that). Rodwell I can see going, Baines is trickier.... not that he isn't great - he is, but who'd buy? if you want big money, it's only going to be coming from a handful of clubs... Spurs, City, Liverpool, United, Chelsea.... which of those would be in the market? Can't see Jag going for 'big' money. I think folks would be interested though, just not for mega bucks.

Baines is a fantastic player, would probably make left back for any team in the country, barring Chelsea, and possibly City - arguable point, but I think he'd get games at City too, just not every week thanks to rotation and formation. 30 million for him? no. 20 million yes. As a selling club (i.e. if he was in your team, I think you could ask for 25, if you were the buying team, you'd be reluctant to pay that for a 27 year old left back). I could see him going for about 23 million though. In my opinion, like others have said, he's probably one of the best left backs in the country, and on his day THE best. Not comparable with Cliche - who's a different sort of player. For 90% of teams Baines would be the better player. Only the very top teams 'might' (and I use that word cautiously) opt to take a slightly less capable defender but one with more pace. He won't go to Stoke. If you want to compare silly prices like Andy Carroll, then sure, he's worth more than Carroll, without any doubt, but the market seems to be settling down again now and the price hikes less frequent.

Maybe a few loan players could be the answer. I'm not a huge fan of the loan system, but it might be just the ticket with money being tight and the future uncertain. Still needs money, I know, but it's usually only the wages (as far as I'm aware) - accepting it's usually out of favour players.

I can see some logic to that, but I think Everton's been diluted enough. This league is a fine league and 12 players of '7/10' might well end up putting Everton in the bottom third. Just can't think a team would willingly sell their better assets for a greater number of weaker ones... but maybe it could work, I dunno!

I can see his point (the bloke saying Liverpool should be punished for disrepute) but let sleeping dogs lie now I think. Let Liverpool climb down as best they can. I'm more saddened that I STILL hear some lousy comments and the odd chant on the terraces that simply shouldn't be happening... all the obvious sexuality and race comments, plus that awful jibe about Wenger (doesn't deserve to be spelled out). Prejudice is alive and kicking on our terraces still, it's up to us all to say "knock it off mate, there's a limit".

The Premier League and the Football League both got greedy in their own ways when they there offered money from TV rights. Some of the Prem Boys (old 1st division) (5 or 6 including Everton) wanted a breakaway league for themselves and to take ALL the money. The rest wanted a Premier League and share the money (which is more or less what happened) The Football League (now Championship and below) had the chance to take a fixed percentage of Premier money but decided against that and to negotiate their 'own' tv deal (foolishly in retrospect). It was predicted that the rich would get richer and the poor, poorer, and that's what's happened - with a twist.... All the money went to the players and not the clubs (thanks to market forces and sharp agents, and stupid club owners / fans). Now we have the LUDICROUS situation where a club (e.g. Everton and others) are pretty much some of our very best clubs and still struggling to break even, whilst players are on crazy wages and revenues sky high. If this wasn't football, a lot more 'businesses' (clubs) would have been shut down years ago. Leeds and City to name but two, but plenty of others too. We have the best football league in the world, and the greatest traditional from large to small club all over the country, and it's tragic that football has become a commercial venture where dog eats dog, club eats club. We NEED smaller clubs, we NEED large clubs, we NEED Leeds, and City and Everton and Liverpool.... and clubs / fans should do a lot more to help save the game, but more than anything, those running the game need to see that the Premier League is our showcase, but the 'backroom' is all the other divisions and clubs. Sensible club ownership is the only way forwards, be they super rich clubs spending a bit too much (even though it's putting money back into the game), or smaller clubs spending more than they can afford, or clubs literally being asset stripped by dodgy owners. It needs sorting!

There's no connection other than the fans themselves who've endured it all. That's true for any club really. An Everton fan being born today won't be the same as one who can remember the great 80s side (who were robbed of a chance to prove themselves in Europe). The players come and go, the owners come and go, the managers come and go, and to some extent a proportion of the fans come and go. All any fan really has is a love of their club, that, if truth be told, gets taken advantage of time and time again. Fans are a captive audience unable to switch to another brand, and ALL clubs milk us for our money. For most City fans, we've watched great Liverpool and United teams do amazing things and 'dreamed' of one day experience just some of that. To play Barcelona, or Bayern, or Madrid etc, to lift a trophy, to go to Wembley etc etc. 90% of fans NEVER get to experience it in a lifetime. So that makes City and Everton fans (of a certain age) very lucky indeed. It's very unlikely City would ever surpass United, nothing is impossible, but it's unlikely, but all we want is a moment in the sun... to know what it's like. Other fans can take the piss and say "it's only an FA cup" or "you didn't last long in Europe", but at least my son can say "I watched City win a cup with my dad" etc. That's damn lucky if you ask me. I'm not into 'big club' 'little club' crap... Everton have more often than not, been a better team that City. We've had our moments, but generally, Everton have been much better. That makes Everton fans lucky (fortunate) in my eyes. You've have a lot of success over the years, and even now, it's hardly 'tragic' - just a dip by your standards. It's a shame that money plays such an influential role in it all. There's no denying that, but that's not City's fault, that's the fault of ALL the premier league clubs who WANTED this. They all wanted to go to Vegas and win big bucks, it's unfair to complain later when some lose and some get lucky. The fault was 'going to Vegas' in the first place. I miss aspects of the 'old' City... the perennial underdogs, the atmospheric Maine Rd etc... but I don't miss the gross mismanagement, 3rd division, relegation, inept players, losing more than winning etc. All I can do is enjoy the ride - I have no say in what the club does (as per any fan). I try to remind my son that once upon a time, Liverpool were magnificent, United were quite bad, and 'things change'. I try to remind him that the City he knows is a new thing, and it won't always be this way. He's youngish (19) and doesn't fully understand what I tell him, but he will in good time. If all fans were honest, really honest, they'd realise the great paradox of football... We would all love to be the club we currently are, but enjoy the successes of United and Liverpool etc, but in reality, to have such success will turn you into those clubs.

The problem is.... if Suarez had been holding out his hand to pick Evra up off the floor and used that term he did, he MIGHT have a case for saying he was establishing rapport with the term... Just as you might say to a friend "get up you silly b'stard!" and laugh together. When you're embroiled in an argument, it's much harder to put that case forward. Also, Suarez changed his testimony over time, and it changes in accordance with new evidence as it arrived. He changed it in the light of new video evidence that wasn't aired, but existed (and was disclosed to his counsel), and he changed it to user terminology that the language experts used in their report, thus giving the impression he 'cottoned on' to trying to get the language evidence to tally with his account. Also, Liverpool FC, including Mr Dalglish and Mr Cammioli changed their account of the words used. The panel didn't believe this to be pure chance, since Liverpool FC had already begun to act in a 'formal' manner by getting Suarez' testimony minutes after the allegation was made, and giving specific words to the referee who documented them. Then over time, and despite numerous documents that had been approved and signed, kept modifying the words used. Evra's testimony tallied with video evidence he wasn't even aware of, and whilst there were a couple of inconsistencies from Evra too, they were relatively minor. He's done for, and the right verdict given. I don't think he's a racist, I think he was winding Evra up, and vice versa, and he resorted to the obvious insult (in his eyes) with a provocative comment about Evra being black. I'm no fan of Evra or Suarez, but have to side with Evra. I just look forward to seeing Suarez PLAY because he's damn good, and stop with the antics (because those aren't good).

Lots has changed... a) Better players have left Current players have got older c) Other teams have improved, some significantly d) The club's 'state' has started to become a genuine issue - making it a less attractive place to come, and less able to afford the quality Everton would normally expect. e) The fans are losing patience, partly due to performances, and partly in frustration at the club in general f) At some point, Everton and Moyes' lack of spending (and I don't mean mega bucks spending) was going to come home to roost. You can get away with it for a couple of years, but not forever. At least two former competitors (Spurs and City) have really moved forwards (forget about how / why), and that's had a knock on effect of nudging Villa and Everton out of the top 6. Teams like Stoke have started to establish a brand of football that's not pretty but is effective and are now candidates for nudging better footballing sides, like Villa and Everton even further into mid-tabledom. The situation of 3-4 years ago simply isn't the situation now. Everton fans don't seem to be the type to welcome negative football, and prefer to see a bit of skill, positive thinking and entertainment (but not gung-ho craziness). Sadly, without a decent forward lineup, that's not happening and it's upsetting so see (for Everton fans). If folks accept that the situation's changed for Everton, all that's left is to say "ok, we're now a club in mid-tabledom BUT..." and start looking at the positives from there... 1) Whilst you're unlikely to magically become a top 6 side again without investment, you ARE a club that is normally associated with being at the top, so once the investment comes in, there's every hope you'll get back there. 2) Whilst crowd numbers are down, you're not alone (Villa) in this, and STILL, you're a very well supported club. Most clubs don't get the crowds Everton do, even when a lot of the fans are voting with their feet. They'll be back once the 'feeling' around the club improves. 3) Moyes' got an incredible track record for getting the most out of players. A few recent performances aside, and in the knowledge that you don't have money to spend, isn't Moyes just about the best man to have in such a situation? You just have to (sadly) lower the expectation a little and be thankful you're not in freefall like City, Newcastle, Leeds etc once were. 4) There are younger players at the club coming through that show a lot of promise, and a few more established players that are still the envy of many clubs. Maybe not littered with them as you once were, but you do still have 3-4 that fit the description. It gives you options that other clubs don't have - to sell for a fair whack, or keep. 5) You have a chairman that appears to accept he can't give Everton what they need and is attempting to find a new owner for the club. If you put the issues with BK to one side and just work on the basic premise of selling to a better equipped owner, this is a positive (as opposed to a chairman who just won't accept it's time to go and takes you down with him). Is it truly THAT bad? Yes it's bad for Everton by their usual standards, but it's not THAT bad in the grand scheme of things. It's just mid-table blues (pardon the pun), inconsistent performances and players that aren't really the usual Everton standard. My honest gut feeling is that the BK situation / lack of money is simply a cancer in the club that spreads negativity and sooner or later starts affecting club and fan morale, and ultimately player/team performances. When the club looks to be making no real effort to progress on the pitch, then the players will eventually lost motivation. Imagine Moyes as your manager at work, telling you that you won't be promoted or given a pay rise this time, but 'soon'.... for a while, if he's good, he can still fill you with hope... and you work even harder to secure that promotion / pay rise. Eventually though, after a couple of years, those talks stop working. You know the money's not there. He explains that the money isn't there, and you accept it's not HIS fault, it's the club. After another two years of THAT, you no longer care whose fault it is, the fact remains, you're stuck in a dead end job. Maybe, just maybe, that's what happens at clubs when there's no significant investment for 4/5 years?

Anyone who loves their club will eventually come to a point where they look at the manager and wonder if it's time (or a leading star player of the past). I suppose it's like divorce. It's not a question of not being a loyal fan, or not offering the 'right' support to the team / manager, it's simply trying to look at the best interests of the club, and casting your eye over EVERY aspect, and in once in a while, that will include the manager. Having such a good record with Everton buys him a lot of respect and a fair amount of leeway, but it doesn't make anybody bigger than the club and exempt from scrutiny. And, if time and again you find yourselves having to resort to past achievements rather than current ones, then it's time. Usually because of the emotional attachment, the decision is prolonged 2 years more than it should be.... rather like divorce again. Folks (afterwards) end up saying ... we went too long with them, the signs were there... etc

I agree.... not this season, but it's NEXT season I worry about. The rot has to be stopped soon. The problem is, most fans never see it until it's too late.... the old "we're not playing well, but too good to go down"... next thing you know, you're down. It can happen to ANY club. Everton's great name isn't going to be enough to attract good players, you're having to work with the leftovers from other teams or take a punt on players that might come good. It's tragic, because I truly think Moyes COULD do something with 15-20 million (which isn't that much by today's standards and certainly not for a club of Everton's stature).

The Liverpool lads are usually great on football matters (generally speaking), but on THIS subject, they're mad at the club for not fighting the FA!!!... deluded. The report says it all (for those that bother to read it.... it's quite lengthy). There's no PROOF of intent, merely common sense. Liverpool made a balls up of their story not least in part, due to a small change in a foreign language having a significant change of meaning, and having been aware of how important it was to get the wording EXACTLY right, Liverpool failed to do so... with a couple of variations about what was actually said. The panel concluded - that Liverpool are either stupid (unlikely), and that a ref is a liar (unlikely), or Liverpool simply aren't sure what was said (in which case stop pretending they ARE sure), or they have adjusted the story to suit. But at the end of the day, Evra got his story fairly straight and it tallied with the video evidence. Suarez told one story, discovered new video evidence against him and changed the story, THEN amended his story to use phrases that fitted better with the language advisors reports. The panel essentially concluded that Suarez's team were twisting every which way to make the facts fitted, whilst Evra told a simple story and it all tallied. The nail in the coffin was 'you can use the negro word' as a friend... it's normal..... which is TRUE. You can also piss on a close friend (IF that's your thing).... but in the middle of a slanging match between two blokes not getting along, then it ONLY has one meaning... Liverpool have backed the wrong horse, Dalglish is embarrassed, but hasn't the balls to hold his hands up, and this new little 'we could say a lot more if we wanted to' stunt is just digging a deeper hole. Liverpool are a fantastic club (don't say a word!!!), but this one is a bad mistake for them.

Didn't look a pen, but I've seen them given (harshly) Just lost control and went down... don't think it was a dive either.

Any truth to the rumour Steve Keene showed up tonight to show support for Moyes and walked out at half time in disgust?

Maybe some of the players DON'T give a (as suggested) - why would they? the club's not spending, no pay rises on the cards, no clear chance of winning much, fans voting with their feet and an uncertain future in the management (and therefore their own positions). It doesn't take long before even those players who adore Everton start looking at other clubs and wondering if the grass might be greener. There was a time when a move from Everton to Spurs would be a sideways move (at best), now it would be a no brainer. There was a time when a move from Newcastle to Everton would have been a no brainer, now it would be seen as backward. The sooner the ownership issue is resolved the better, followed by just a little spending (a modest amount would be enough) and a 'settled' feel to the club. As long as it's unsettled, it will slowly decay the club :-(

I thought Moyes at least had the decency to tell it how it was. Everton didn't deserve anything tonight. At least he was up front about that.