FanchesterCity

Fans don't have the money they used to have, and if the team aren't playing too well, AND there's question marks over the running of the club it can be no surprise that attendances are down. Aston Villa have the same issue. I know fans (of other teams) like to point the finger etc, but in truth, this can (and does) happen to all clubs. Everton fans are no different than Villa or United, or City etc. It should be telling a story though, that a fair number of the fans simply aren't finding Everton 'attractive' at the moment. How much that will influence matters on the pitch, I don't know. I suspect not very much. Finally, and no disrespect to Everton fans..... but possibly they expect too much (at the moment). Everton fans have generally had it good for a long time, good teams, high league positions, winners more often than not. Now times are harder for the team, some fans don't like it one bit. That's more a statement about your past successes, but the current team appears to be a little below Everton's usual par. Norwich's attendance is up - for them they are on a roll! Everton's is down - for them they are below par. In the grand scheme of things, Everton fans are right to expect great things from the club. I just think at the moment, they're going to have to be very patient and accept they are unlikely to see such great things until the boardroom changes AND come to terms with the possibility that the footballing world is changing (for better or for worse) and some teams are likely to lose out... quite possibly Everton being one of them. :-(

Think I agree with that... at the prices you can afford, you're not going to be getting the quality you're previously used to (unless you get very lucky with an up and coming star!). All in all, it seems like catch 22 to me. I just think there has to be a limit to Moyes talents. It's asking too much of him to keep turning up decent players. It still feels like he's swimming against the tide, and Everton are slowly slipping. Maybe he can do his usual trick and get a string of good performances together and get back in the 7 - 10th position.... which is still not really where you'd expect Everton to be (5-7th). Sadly, I fear Everton will be in the 10-15th range this year which for Everton isn't good.

But the way the transfer system works, you only have a window of opportunity to decide. It's a gamble... hope you can make something from what you have, or opt to buy in a known quantity (whoever that may be). That said a 'known quantity' is a bit questionable, since there's no guarantee really. IF Moyes was thinking along the same lines (using what you have), then he probably should have given the lads a fair run prior to the window in order to be in a better position to judge. A playmaker would be great, but realistically, who's out there and available. You have to be realistic.... you're likely to be able to get an 'out of favour' type player, or a rising star from a lower league (if you buy). Or, there's always the option of a loan deal... which might make some sense if it's a quality player needing games. I just think it's way too risky NOT to bring in one or two players... the winter is hard on players, you'll get injuries, and the squad's not deep enough. It would be great if Moyes COULD muster up something from the existing squad, but really, can you keep letting key players go and not expect to slip backwards? I'm not convinced.

Feel it? I can SMELL it! Everton have had far better performances than yesterday's game and not gone on to progress from there. So I fail to see why an enthused Drenthe appearance in an otherwise lacklustre team performance should be considered a catalyst / turning a corner. I DO think it's something to be upbeat about though... knowing he can show some spirit. Sadly, Everton currently seem very inconsistent. Capable of some solid resolute performances against the better teams, and then complacency against the lesser teams. I suppose virtually all teams suffer from that to some extent, but with Everton at the moment it's a bit exaggerated.... which in part is possibly why some weeks Everton fans can be (rightly) very optimistic, then the next week (also rightly) see that you're not that things aren't as they should be.

wE doNt drInK alCohOL tO exCeSS hiC!

I think at the moment, the table is still a bit misleading... it flatters a few teams (City being one) and it gives a bad impression of others (Everton for example) BUT it's a fairly decent 'ballpark' indication at the moment. I think the +/- 4 places is about right. To me, Everton are still one of the teams nobody wants to play. Capable of beating anyone, and anybody who comes away from a game with Everton with a point (or more) will feel pretty happy. Although I say that, I do think a great deal of that 'fear' is based on past performance and a reputation for hard work / dogged performances. I'm not sure about Drenthe. Part of me keeps feeling he only looks decent because he's in a side that's not really looking very threatening up front, and so anybody prepared to go forward with enthusiasm, and a bit of ability looks good!). I do agree though, that that's a real positive thing for Everton - more of it required please! Norwich's goal today was hard to blame on anybody really. Just one of those 'jammy' goals that squeezed through (although you could argue he shouldn't have been able to turn and get a shot in). Norwich are not a bad team - but truth be told there not 'bad' teams in this league. Only Bolton are looking shocking and they can play well when they have confidence. I'm more worried about next season for Everton... that the ownership won't be resolved, players will get frustrated (and poached) and you'll slip back even further (into genuine 'worry zone'). That's why I think something has to happen ASAP in the boardroom, or some money found for Mr Moyes. That top 6-8 is looking harder and harder for Everton, and I'm not at all confident you're up to it this year, and look (from the outside) to be going the same way as Villa - another great club having to settle for mid table for a few years. Perhaps I'm being a pessimist. After all, it's the DNA of a City fan!.... but still, for me, this current Everton team are not really of the standard Everton traditionally commands. I'm convinced with (say) 20 - 30 million, Moyes could secure a fairly decent team for the next 3-4 years (and make damn sure Everton stay in the Prem). It's a crying shame he's not going to get anywhere near that, and in all likelihood will be asked to let even more players go (Rodwell, Baines?) in the summer. I know 20-30 million sounds a lot, but it's not when compared with the money other clubs are spending. I think Everton and Moyes luck is running out. p.s. by 'luck' I don't mean you've been lucky so far per se, I just mean that you can't keep going forever without spending and replacing the talent you keep losing. Sooner or later it will catch up with you, it just has to. Let's just hope you can get new owners with a good attitude (and not a Venky's !)... Then Everton can get back in the mix at the top where they belong.

Defoe (loan) or Zamora (move) ? I know Zamora's not a leading light, marquee name etc, but he could do a job for a year or two. Seems sad to even suggest him for Everton, but needs must etc. Defoe of course is quite decent... just not sure he's made for Northern climates. Even a punt on Santa Cruz (and I do mean a punt!!!... he wasn't good for us, we could do with offloading him)

I'm sure I'll get stick for this and 'not right for Everton' or 'we aren't that desperate' etc.... but still.... Bobby Zamora? Yes he's 30, but I'm thinking 'cheap', and capable. It's unlikely you'll be getting Adebayor or similar etc, so worth a punt ?

aye, then there's lies... damn lies.... and statistics. 1 goal from 1 shot = hardly any attack = 100% hit ratio = can't score 2 = whatever you want it to equal 3 goals from 30 shots = lots of attack = struggling to hit the target = scoring for fun = anything you like

I hope they've secured model releases for the people in the photos, or they could be in trouble! Everton should be getting a cut (if they've done their work properly).

Always makes for a good read - stats like this. Quite what use they are is another matter! The only stat that matters.... points ;-) I'm not sure if you've salvaged a point or lost two of them, but once you're losing with 10 mins left, it does tend to feel like you've salvaged something (but with the pressure at the end... who knows?) I'm glad I'm not a betting man... Everton are a total lottery at the moment. On a good day you could beat anybody, but even Bolton at home could be a tricky fixture :-(

No player can go on forever, and Cahill's been a fine player (and still is in my opinion), but he's in the twilight of his career now. IF Everton are to continue with him, Everton have to adapt to his current ability. It's no use expecting him to play the same way at 32 as he did at 28. I don't think he's lost any ability per se (as in lack of confidence), but he might have lost a yard of pace, and missing a lot of service too. Everton's future is not with Cahill - that's just a fact (just as Liverpool's is without Gerrard). Playing with Cahill should now be seen as an interim measure until he can be replaced full time. That's not a slight on Cahill, just a harsh fact of footballing life. Beckham's been through it Lampard's going through it Gerrard's going through it but doesn't know he is! I'd lke to think of Cahill as 'doing his very best to help Everton despite his age' rather than 'no longer good enough'. Can't blame the player.

We'd be in a total mess financially (highly probably because we were before!), and quite possibly in the Championship (hard to know for sure). But that's not my point... my point is, it's easy to say "we should beat so and so", but the tables don't lie in the end. In this league, any team can beat any team, which is partly what makes it so good. At the moment, the season's not even half way through, so it can be a bit misleading, but it's starting to reflect the truth.... Let's say 4 places in either direction as leeway (for any team). Ask most fans about their team and most will say 'we were robbed' or 'unlucky' (regardless of which team they support), but putting the bias to one side, maybe, just maybe the current Everton team aren't as good as many (including myself) think. If you want to talk City, the same could be said of them.... the proof is in the pudding, out of Europe, and beatable... not as 'great' as some believe, or Arsenal - not as bad as some believe! If you're completely impartial, the only real measurement you can use is the table, and in my opinion, Everton's position must be indicative of where they are at, but NOT indicative of where they traditionally OUGHT to be!

FACT - the club is for sale FACT - a number of buyers have looked FACT - none of the buyers has chosen to buy FACT - when a business proposition is attractive and fair value there is little to prevent a sale FACT - when a business proposition is attractive and good value, a sale is highly likely FACT - when a sale doesn't go through (and there exists a potential buyer), the cost / benefit ratio was not favourable to the buyer FACT - when all potential buyers consider the cost/benefit ratio unfavourable - the price is too high (at that moment in time) Simple market economics. Everton can do the following: a) Increase the actual or perceived benefit. Reduce the cost c) Wait for external variables to influence the market in favour of Everton. These ARE facts. You're right to say we don't know the specific detail of the cost / benefit analysis (but that's not necessary to know), but we do know the outcome, and can therefore deduce the above. There would be nothing wrong with BK saying "the market's not good right now, so we will wait until it suits Everton".... but what he's actually saying is "The market's not good right now, and we can't sell". He's wrong. Everton CAN sell, just not at a price Everton like. The market dictates the price unfortunately, not BK. Prove me wrong sir.

I think you'll find it's PRECISELY the truth. Of course there are countless 'factors' when you purchase a business, but those factors (positive and negative) ultimately come down to a valuation of the business. If the value is attractive to a buyer, they'll buy. If not, they won't. Those factors (to which you refer, and had you read properly, I referred to also) are simply reflected in a price. COST / BENEFIT pure and simple. Since (seemingly) Everton can't readily change the benefit element of the equation, the only variable they can change is the cost. The proposition presented by any selling business is this: "FOR THE PRICE, is the business I'm offering an attractive proposition or not?". (All of the other variables are incorporated into that statement) So, counter it sir.... I look forward to your presentation of evidence to the contrary.

OK, I'll say it (or rather ask it) - most of you won't like it, but here goes... ARE you really as good as you think you are, or is the table starting to tell the truth? I accept bad decisions, bad luck, injuries, bad tactics etc etc, but there comes a point when you have to look deeper. I am NOT saying you're poor, nor am I going to say you're great... I'm just asking the question as an outsider.

If something isn't selling - in ANY walk of life.. it's either: 1) The price is too high 2) The owner is being too fussy about who to sell to. You can put a thousands spins on the matter, but it still comes down to that. You see it in the housing market, the car market, the business market. All the negative aspects of Everton (ground, location, debt etc) are simply aspects that affect the price. Just like a dent in a car, or lack of car parking space at a house.

The old adage - "you need to take your chances when they come" sums it up. Slow starters is one thing, but Everton need to put their foot on the gas NOW. That 'looking over your shoulder' feeling can creep up quite rapidly and only adds to tension to performances. Far from panic time, but Everton need to get a healthy margin between them and the bottom half by January, and opportunities like Norwich at home shouldn't be wasted :-(

All boards get the 'clique' accusation. It's rarely accurate, but that's not the point. People FEEL there's a clique, and it can put them off. Once you're a regular on a board, it's so easy to forget what it's like not to know anybody, not know the 'in jokes' etc. In many ways, it's just like a pub. If it's full of locals it can feel intimidating and you stand out like a sore thumb, but the more you keep going, the more you become a local. It only takes a short time to come away from a board thinking it's great, or awful, and if you catch the wrong person in the wrong mood on the wrong day, it can ruin a newcomers entire experience (or even an old hand for that matter!). If folks were a bit less sensitive, and in turn other folks a bit less aggressive, everything would be fine - but it's too much to expect when you have such a cross section of people.

Rodwell would be a speculative investment, but every chance a smarter one in the long run for United. By 'speculative' I mean to say he's not totally proven yet - he's still young (when you compare with the likes of say, Sneider). But what United would be getting is the potential for a top class midfielder AND the benefit of many years, thanks to his age. Alas, I don't think United fans would be too forgiving if he didn't settle quickly (not so much forgiving of him, but of Fergie). They could quickly (indirectly) be on Rodwell's back if United started losing games etc, and questioning why they didn't go for a proven top name (not that there are many available!). That's not a dig at United fans, I think the same would happen at City, Spurs, Liverpool etc etc. Sadly for Everton, if there's a great talent in the team, the vultures will circle and make offers that are hard to turn down, and Rodwell is starting to gain a reputation as a future talent.

Isn't it the nature of most football fans to want to be doing better than they are? Some teams are reasonable 'content' with where they are, but for the majority, there's usually a feeling (in the dreamy heads of fans) that their team are just a couple of players short of glory, or a few wins away from promotion, etc etc. It's natural for most fans to feel slightly irked that their club don't quite reach the potential they THINK they could, and there's always a range of plausible reasons for it... - bad decisions - bad (or no) buys - bad tactics - bad manager - etc It should be little wonder than football forums are where many vent their frustrations. More people write letters of complaint than letters of praise, more people let out their negative feelings than positive ones. I don't see that as being a bad fan, i think it's a NORMAL fan. Knocking your own club doesn't mean you're less of a fan. Knocking the manager doesn't mean you don't respect him. There are countless examples of clubs that have gotten themselves into a real mess (City, Leeds, Portsmouth and more). Should their fans have smiled all day long? should they have simply 'taken it'? Everton's current plight falls a LONG way short of the mess those other clubs got into, but it doesn't mean it can't happen to Everton either. There is nothing wrong with some fans constantly questioning the decisions of the club, on and off the field. Negativity (as some view it) is still passion for the club. Apathy is the killer, not negativity. After all, when someone is negative, they are typically trying to highlight a problem so that it can be corrected. It's not their fault if others focus JUST on that problem and ignore the improvement comments. "Moyes needs to play players in the best positions" is perceived as negative. "With everyone in their best position, we can win" is perceived as positive. It's the SAME message! Remember, it's easy to blame the poster for being negative, much harder to criticise ourselves for a negative interpretation. There's not an Everton fan alive who doesn't want the best for Everton. The rest is simply debate on how to achieve that.

I'm not an Everton fan, but I think it's a good forum. It's small (but not tiny), you get some decent football chat and much discussion about off the pitch football (state of the game, boardroom issues etc). Well worth sticking around for. I try to help this lot 'realistic' and they do the same to me! *grin* As an outsider, I'd say it was one of the best Everton forums.

You simply never know what can happen one minute to the next. Real shame. Never a good time for it to happen, but what a lousy time of year to lose someone. Tragic, just tragic

Unlikely? I've just given you some prime examples of such. Manchester United, Umbro, Blacks, JD Sports, The FA ALL prosecuted for it.

It's quite complicated <---- just about sums it up