Football On An Easter Sunday..

[Jesse_Wray]

With all the horrors in the world I find it toe curlingly embarrassing that any sportsman (American sprinters thanking god for their medals started it all off) feels it appropriate to thank god for their meaningless and pointless (in the grand scheme of things) effort.

If the supreme being is wasting his time looking after his followers as they hop, skip and jump to world domination then he's a pretty piss-poor deity imo....one or two other little matters he may want to attend to first; war, famine, disease, starvation....that sort of thing.

 

The arrogance of christians thinking he's on their shoulder giving them a hand I find embarrassing because for it to be true you'd have some horrifically laughable heavenly nepotism going on and any god involved in such behaviour should be the one taking a good look at themselves .

 

Priorities you hugeness!

 

I'll just pull you up on this Mike. The Christian God isn't limited to doing one thing at a time, he has the benefit of omnipotence. To be everywhere and see everything. So while it's hard to accept there is war, disease, famine, etc, I'm glad God is omnipotent and is able to pay attention to the little things. I consider a god that only pays attention to the big things to be a pretty piss-poor god. I'm glad he's not too big and that he's able to be intimately involved in everyone's lives.

 

Also, I'm of a similar view to CraccerC in that I believe God has blessed everyone with talents an opportunities, it's just that people like Pienaar recognise they're gifts from God. So I don't really think Pienaar was specifically saying, 'Thanks God for helping me turn my marker and whip in that delightful shot', I think he was more or less saying thankyou for all that God has done throughout his life and the talents he blessed him with. I also think it was an opportunity for Pienaar to say, 'This is the reason why I find it ok to play on Easter Sunday, as a way to honour my God through publicising my faith'.

[Jimmy the blue]

Oh dear.

Easter does have pagan origins. Something to do with the spring equinox and a fertility festival.

 

I would like to know how you actually account for the Easter Bunny being part of a Christian festival?. The bunny (or hare) is to do with the fertility and is directly from pre-christian traditions.

And as for eggs and resurrection its all about Spring and the rebirth of life/crops etc. (which was nicely tweaked as the rebirth Christ).

 

But you just keep your mind closed to such ideas, wouldnt want to upset your God with common sense.

 

I think you've watched too much Vicar of Dibley, when I was young the only thing to do with Easter was an egg, a symbo0l of rebirth...............................as for bunnies IMO an invention of chocolate makers from pagan history. Like Christmas, the intention behind that festival has been taken over by 'commercialists' hence you have children showing far from Christian attitudes with the 'we must have' syndrome.............

 

As for me keeping my mind open. a tad cheeky I think as I have scant faith in the bible, a document publish some years after the events in a language not used by the claimed authors but that is another story

 

For your information

 

The Easter Bunny as an Easter symbol seems to have its origins in Alsace and southwestern Germany, where it was first mentioned in German writings in the 1600s. The first edible Easter Bunnies were made in Germany during the early 1800s and were made of pastry and sugar.

 

The Easter Bunny was introduced to America by the German settlers who arrived in the Pennsylvania Dutch country during the 1700s.[3] The arrival of the "O_ster Haws_e" (a phonetic transcription of a dialectal pronunciation of the German Osterhase) was considered one of "childhood's greatest pleasures," similar to the arrival of Kriist Kindle (from the German Christkindl) on Christmas Eve.

 

According to the tradition, children would build brightly colored nests, often out of caps and bonnets, in secluded areas of their homes. The "O_ster Haws_e" would, if the children had been good, lay brightly colored eggs in the nest. As the tradition spread, the nest has become the manufactured, modern Easter basket, and the placing of the nest in a secluded area has become the tradition of hiding baskets.[4]

 

Parents of young children around the world fill children's Easter Baskets with presents, candy and the most famous chocolate bunny. Parents will wait until the children are asleep and then hide the baskets filled with candy and presents. When the children wake up they begin to look for their baskets.

 

No mention of anything to do with a religion................just tradition from a foreign land that has been exploited for commercial gain

Edited April 14, 2009 by Jimmy the blue

[MikeO]

I'll just pull you up on this Mike. The Christian God isn't limited to doing one thing at a time, he has the benefit of omnipotence.

...you believe. I don't. No problem (not "pulling you up," just having my own opinion ).

 

Have no fear Mike I'm not falling out with you but I really do object to your use of the word arrogant as it is totally inappropriate

No falling out here Jim. You're completely entitled to that viewpoint (see how reasonable we athiests can be )....I'll clarify why I use the word later, but no time now because I have to go to Bath to watch my kid brother get shackled to his better half .

[Everton_Worshiper]

? Shouldn't this move to off topic, wondered far too much from the Everton path...

[Bill]

Good thinking E_W. ................ moved.

 

 

 

PS ... Easy to see why War and Religion usually go hand in hand. Thats why i always stay out of any religous discussion.

[Churinga2]

Pienaar does his bit to keep the day Christian....

 

 

Just maybe he's saying: Hey Tony, nice roof they have here

 

 

edit: not trying to bash Pienaar or religion, just poor Humour

Edited April 14, 2009 by Churinga

[Jimmy the blue]

...you believe. I don't. No problem (not "pulling you up," just having my own opinion ).

 

 

No falling out here Jim. You're completely entitled to that viewpoint (see how reasonable we athiests can be )....I'll clarify why I use the word later, but no time now because I have to go to Bath to watch my kid brother get shackled to his better half .

 

 

Fair do's mate but when you do could you also tell me why an athiest is so superstitious, what is there to be superstitious about, just a thought like

[aaron]

Religions to me are a farce, religions come and go, e.g. the greek gods, eygption gogd etc.

Christianity has lasted a long time but imo a religion will start small one day and become the next big thing, could be 2000 years down the line before this happens but religions are there to keep people filled with a sense of happieness that there is something good out there, something to look forward to after death. To me as an athiest, i believe once your dead your either dust or 6ft under, but i do however hope there is some sort of better afterlife.

[MikeO]

So anyway. You decide you believe in God, maybe it comes to you in a dream or you're brought up with it or whatever, doesn't really matter. First pick your religion, many to choose from but we'll take Christianity because it's nominally the religion of the UK. Next what church? Again many to choose from but for the sake of this I'm going for the Baptists (because they're the only ones I have any direct experience with...another story). Now what sort of Baptist would you like to be? Anywhere from happy clappy hippy to those lovely Westboro people in Kansas.

You make your decision based on what your faith tells you (as JD says and I've no reason to doubt him) and you immediately find yourself in a minority, but your faith tells you you're right, and so everyone else must be wrong.

That I find arrogant....an exaggerated view of your own importance...it may not be a conscious thing but to believe so totally (faithfully) that you are right and everyone else (the vast majority) is wrong is for me is an arrogant view. Is Brad Friedel a Christian? If so did God make a snap decision when the ball left Pienaar's foot who was currently the most devout?

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what Pienaar's trying to say, and Lewis Hamilton when he claims God's in the car with him (which he's actually stopped saying for some reason), it's very possible but the impression I get is that people are thanking God for helping them win/score....you don't hear them thank Him when they lose do you?

So I find it embarrassing, can't help it, just do.

 

Another thought, if you have absolute faith in your own beliefs is it not a bit patronising to be tolerant of alternative views?

You know they're wrong, shouldn't you be true to yourself and tell them rather than humouring them? Perversly in that respect extremists like Westboro are more honest aren't they? "....you don't agree with me, you're wrong and you're going to hell."

 

I like to think I live a good and decent life because I believe it's the right way to be. If I get to the gates and St Peter says, "OK Mike you've been a real good guy but you didn't say 'God is great' twice a day so you're going to burn" then so be it. I don't really think I want anything to do with a God who works that way anyway.

I want my kids to love me but I don't need them to shout about it constantly to prove it.

 

Think describing myself as an athiest was a bit wide of the mark...I don't think the existence of God to be impossible, just hugely improbable....as to the superstition thing I've always had it (never claimed to be sane). Raced cars to lamp-posts as a kid, had to be in another room in the house before the toilet stopped flushing....not

at all sure of what would have happeed if I failed.

 

That's where I am at the moment. Please consider any questions I've asked in this as rhetorical, don't expect anyone to agree with me...I'd be amazed if they did. Anyway I'm done with this thread, it hurts my brain .

As long as you're content in your own skin and your beliefs don't hurt anyone else good for you.

 

And I'll take as much embarrassment as Steven wants to heap on me next Sunday and for the rest of the season with a huge smile on my face!

[Jimmy the blue]

So anyway. You decide you believe in God, maybe it comes to you in a dream or you're brought up with it or whatever, doesn't really matter. First pick your religion, many to choose from but we'll take Christianity because it's nominally the religion of the UK. Next what church? Again many to choose from but for the sake of this I'm going for the Baptists (because they're the only ones I have any direct experience with...another story). Now what sort of Baptist would you like to be? Anywhere from happy clappy hippy to those lovely Westboro people in Kansas.

You make your decision based on what your faith tells you (as JD says and I've no reason to doubt him) and you immediately find yourself in a minority, but your faith tells you you're right, and so everyone else must be wrong.

That I find arrogant....an exaggerated view of your own importance...it may not be a conscious thing but to believe so totally (faithfully) that you are right and everyone else (the vast majority) is wrong is for me is an arrogant view. Is Brad Friedel a Christian? If so did God make a snap decision when the ball left Pienaar's foot who was currently the most devout?

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what Pienaar's trying to say, and Lewis Hamilton when he claims God's in the car with him (which he's actually stopped saying for some reason), it's very possible but the impression I get is that people are thanking God for helping them win/score....you don't hear them thank Him when they lose do you?

So I find it embarrassing, can't help it, just do.

 

Another thought, if you have absolute faith in your own beliefs is it not a bit patronising to be tolerant of alternative views?

You know they're wrong, shouldn't you be true to yourself and tell them rather than humouring them? Perversly in that respect extremists like Westboro are more honest aren't they? "....you don't agree with me, you're wrong and you're going to hell."

 

I like to think I live a good and decent life because I believe it's the right way to be. If I get to the gates and St Peter says, "OK Mike you've been a real good guy but you didn't say 'God is great' twice a day so you're going to burn" then so be it. I don't really think I want anything to do with a God who works that way anyway.

I want my kids to love me but I don't need them to shout about it constantly to prove it.

 

Think describing myself as an athiest was a bit wide of the mark...I don't think the existence of God to be impossible, just hugely improbable....as to the superstition thing I've always had it (never claimed to be sane). Raced cars to lamp-posts as a kid, had to be in another room in the house before the toilet stopped flushing....not

at all sure of what would have happeed if I failed.

 

That's where I am at the moment. Please consider any questions I've asked in this as rhetorical, don't expect anyone to agree with me...I'd be amazed if they did.[/b] Anyway I'm done with this thread, it hurts my brain .

As long as you're content in your own skin and your beliefs don't hurt anyone else good for you.

 

And I'll take as much embarrassment as Steven wants to heap on me next Sunday and for the rest of the season with a huge smile on my face!

 

Well at least we agree about something

[Guest efctaxi]

[zequist]

So anyway. You decide you believe in God, maybe it comes to you in a dream or you're brought up with it or whatever, doesn't really matter. First pick your religion, many to choose from but we'll take Christianity because it's nominally the religion of the UK. Next what church? Again many to choose from but for the sake of this I'm going for the Baptists (because they're the only ones I have any direct experience with...another story). Now what sort of Baptist would you like to be? Anywhere from happy clappy hippy to those lovely Westboro people in Kansas.

You make your decision based on what your faith tells you (as JD says and I've no reason to doubt him) and you immediately find yourself in a minority, but your faith tells you you're right, and so everyone else must be wrong.

That I find arrogant....an exaggerated view of your own importance...it may not be a conscious thing but to believe so totally (faithfully) that you are right and everyone else (the vast majority) is wrong is for me is an arrogant view. Is Brad Friedel a Christian? If so did God make a snap decision when the ball left Pienaar's foot who was currently the most devout?

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what Pienaar's trying to say, and Lewis Hamilton when he claims God's in the car with him (which he's actually stopped saying for some reason), it's very possible but the impression I get is that people are thanking God for helping them win/score....you don't hear them thank Him when they lose do you?

So I find it embarrassing, can't help it, just do.

 

Actually, you pretty much have it completely backwards. For Christians, faith in God is not about arrogance, it's actually about humility. God himself set us the example when he sent Jesus to the world, not as a king or a conquering general or a wealthy nobleman, but as a poor and humble carpenter from backwater Judea (Galilee was basically the armpit of the kingdom). Christians are called, not to feel proud and special and think we're better or holier than other people, but to humble ourselves and serve our fellow man as best we can, and to do our part to make this world a better place for everyone.

 

Another thought, if you have absolute faith in your own beliefs is it not a bit patronising to be tolerant of alternative views?

You know they're wrong, shouldn't you be true to yourself and tell them rather than humouring them? Perversly in that respect extremists like Westboro are more honest aren't they? "....you don't agree with me, you're wrong and you're going to hell."

 

Again, I think you have it backwards. In fact, for many Christians, the truth is that we don't know, and our faith is far from "absolute." If you read about the lives of many of the most respected and revered Catholics and Christians, you would find that almost all of them had times of doubt and uncertainty at one time or another - times when they struggled with their faith, questioned what they were doing with their lives, wondered about the paradox of a God who was supposed to be kind but let so many horrible things happen in the world. Even someone as devout as Mother Teresa had a very long period of tremendous doubt in her life. Saint John of the Cross (who also experienced those doubts) even gave a name to that feeling: "the dark night." It's defined as a time when a person feels completely abandoned by God, and which can lead even ardent believers to doubt God’s existence. There have been a lot of essays written on the subject of doubt's compatibility with faith, and many theologians have concluded (which I agree with) that having doubts is actually a healthy part of having faith, because it forces you to stop and think about your beliefs every once in a while, to re-examine and re-codify them, and also to think about whether your life is meeting the moral and ethical standards you think it should, relative to those beliefs.

 

So no, I do not know that those other people who follow other faiths are definitely wrong, and mine is definitely right. The only thing that I know is that I have no business passing judgment on others' beliefs; ultimately only God can do that. There is a parable in the New Testament about two men who go into the Temple to pray. The first man thanks God for giving him blessings beyond those of the less fortunate, and then rattles off all the religious obligations that he meticulously observes (in other words, "see how holy I am"). The second man prostrates himself and begs God to be merciful and forgive him for being a sinner. We are told by Jesus that it is the second man who went home justified in God's eyes, not the first. Unfortunately, the extremists who go around trumpeting "God is great!" to everyone they talk to and wear t-shirts with self-righteous slogans like "Embrace Jesus or burn in hell" seem to have forgotten the essential lesson of that parable (exalt yourself and you will be humbled; humble yourself and you will be exalted). In fact, my experience is that those self-righteous people frequently have the most un-Christian attitudes of them all. Pride is considered one of the seven deadly sins for a very good reason.

 

I like to think I live a good and decent life because I believe it's the right way to be. If I get to the gates and St Peter says, "OK Mike you've been a real good guy but you didn't say 'God is great' twice a day so you're going to burn" then so be it.

 

When it comes right down to it, isn't that really all that any of us can do? I mean, I'm Catholic, so I don't go in for predestination; I was taught that good deeds done for the right reasons count for something in the next life. But even with that chance at free will, the ultimate disposition of my soul is still in God's hands, not mine. I can only try to be the very best person that I think God wants me to be, and hope that I'm getting it right.

[MikeO]

Completely respect your point of view JD, and if every religious person had the same doubt, tolerance and humility you show I'd have no problem with religion and neither would the world.

Sadly that's a million miles from being the case.

[Jimmy the blue]

Actually, you pretty much have it completely backwards. For Christians, faith in God is not about arrogance, it's actually about humility. God himself set us the example when he sent Jesus to the world, not as a king or a conquering general or a wealthy nobleman, but as a poor and humble carpenter from backwater Judea (Galilee was basically the armpit of the kingdom). Christians are called, not to feel proud and special and think we're better or holier than other people, but to humble ourselves and serve our fellow man as best we can, and to do our part to make this world a better place for everyone.

 

 

 

Again, I think you have it backwards. In fact, for many Christians, the truth is that we don't know, and our faith is far from "absolute." If you read about the lives of many of the most respected and revered Catholics and Christians, you would find that almost all of them had times of doubt and uncertainty at one time or another - times when they struggled with their faith, questioned what they were doing with their lives, wondered about the paradox of a God who was supposed to be kind but let so many horrible things happen in the world. Even someone as devout as Mother Teresa had a very long period of tremendous doubt in her life. Saint John of the Cross (who also experienced those doubts) even gave a name to that feeling: "the dark night." It's defined as a time when a person feels completely abandoned by God, and which can lead even ardent believers to doubt God’s existence. There have been a lot of essays written on the subject of doubt's compatibility with faith, and many theologians have concluded (which I agree with) that having doubts is actually a healthy part of having faith, because it forces you to stop and think about your beliefs every once in a while, to re-examine and re-codify them, and also to think about whether your life is meeting the moral and ethical standards you think it should, relative to those beliefs.

 

So no, I do not know that those other people who follow other faiths are definitely wrong, and mine is definitely right. The only thing that I know is that I have no business passing judgment on others' beliefs; ultimately only God can do that. There is a parable in the New Testament about two men who go into the Temple to pray. The first man thanks God for giving him blessings beyond those of the less fortunate, and then rattles off all the religious obligations that he meticulously observes (in other words, "see how holy I am"). The second man prostrates himself and begs God to be merciful and forgive him for being a sinner. We are told by Jesus that it is the second man who went home justified in God's eyes, not the first. Unfortunately, the extremists who go around trumpeting "God is great!" to everyone they talk to and wear t-shirts with self-righteous slogans like "Embrace Jesus or burn in hell" seem to have forgotten the essential lesson of that parable (exalt yourself and you will be humbled; humble yourself and you will be exalted). In fact, my experience is that those self-righteous people frequently have the most un-Christian attitudes of them all. Pride is considered one of the seven deadly sins for a very good reason.

 

 

 

When it comes right down to it, isn't that really all that any of us can do? I mean, I'm Catholic, so I don't go in for predestination; I was taught that good deeds done for the right reasons count for something in the next life. But even with that chance at free will, the ultimate disposition of my soul is still in God's hands, not mine. I can only try to be the very best person that I think God wants me to be, and hope that I'm getting it right.

 

Your response has certainly got me thinking again JD I might just PM you mate

[zequist]

Your response has certainly got me thinking again JD I might just PM you mate

 

Anytime you want. Religion is a subject that I find quite interesting, so I'm always up for a chat.