holystove Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 this is a very good article on how an american owner of a basketball team tries to reconcile his beliefs with his team playing on sundays.. http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/sto...mp;sportCat=nba point of this article, if your religious beliefs say you shouldn't attend a sporting event, then don't attend the event .. don't have the event cancelled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dark Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 So we shouldn't do football on eastersunday out of respect for religious people? Can't see how anyone experiences any discomfort from it. If people don't want to go to football because it's easter sunday, then they can choose to do so. I totally agree with that point. If you want to go to church, go to church. If you want to go to the football choose the football. It can't be a decision that will keep you awake for hours at night. Religion again putting themselves ahead of everyone else. They need to realise that not everyone wants to be in a church week in week out. Football is a lot more important to most people. I accept anyone's opinions on religion but for me it's annoying how it tries to barge into events like tomorrow's game. :sleeping_01: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest efctaxi Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 I totally agree with that point. If you want to go to church, go to church. If you want to go to the football choose the football. It can't be a decision that will keep you awake for hours at night. Religion again putting themselves ahead of everyone else. They need to realise that not everyone wants to be in a church week in week out. Football is a lot more important to most people. I accept anyone's opinions on religion but for me it's annoying how it tries to barge into events like tomorrow's game. :sleeping_01: That is not what I would call a statement based on fact I would actually go as far as to say it is probably within a chance of becoming a world record , for the furthest away from fact any one statement could possibly be . Congratulations on your achievement lmao :lmaosmiley: I have visions of prehistoric cave men looking up at the sun , and jumping off the highest rock whilst trying to kick it , while Wilma shouts ' on me 'ed son ' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LexKing Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Its very easy to wonder these talks, as a person who aint very religious. But religions(religious ppl) have the habit of being aggressive when they have someting negative said. We all know that religions are the biggest reason in the history of the wars, these days it might be oil but like i isaid in the history, and not even so far behind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest efctaxi Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Can anyone tell me what Gods surname is ? I think my letters of request regarding Everton winning the league have been going to the wrong address for over 20 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy the blue Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Its all well and good saying that football and religion don't mix quite honestly that is bollocks! If anyone saw Anfield today, anyone going to the Hillsborough memorial service, religion suddenly becomes a necessity at times of crisis to so many people. Most will seek comfoirt in religion at sometime in their lives so just show respect as this thread already depicts the debt we owe churches for our very existence, if you can't recognise that I feel sorry for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest efctaxi Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 (edited) Its all well and good saying that football and religion don't mix quite honestly that is bollocks! If anyone saw Anfield today, anyone going to the Hillsborough memorial service, religion suddenly becomes a necessity at times of crisis to so many people. Most will seek comfoirt in religion at sometime in their lives so just show respect as this thread already depicts the debt we owe churches for our very existence, if you can't recognise that I feel sorry for you I agree Jim . I was brought up with a certain amount of religion , and up untill my teens , we had to attend church every Sunday etc . My grandmother lived with us , and shared a large part of my upbringing . She died a few months before her 100th birthday . Many people have faith , from all walks of life , and that faith genuinely gives some people strength , where others might succumb to their obstacles . I'm not a religious person at all , though I respect others beliefs , providing they are shared if necessary , but not enforced . I would be a liar if I said I have never prayed for a moment , even if I am some what a doubter , but I guess it's only at certain times in our lives that we truly offer our thoughts in such a way , for what ever reason that may be . Do I believe in God ? Not really. Have I ever turned to God ? Yes Quite ironic I guess . As you state , many take comfort from religion , and we as a human race are just as vulnerable and weak as we are strong , and if faith is a healer , councellor , protective force field or anything else that helps people to live their lives , then I'm a live and let live guy . Religion has many guises , and variations upon it's influence , and one mans beliefs are anothers denial , but it is such a fascinating , yet volatile subject , that most discussions I have ever read have ventured into very hostile waters indeed , which is why I , and probably millions of others avoid it vehemently under normal circumstances . I can't remember a forum I've ever been on that didn't have the proverbial ' no religious thread ' in it's rules , and for good reason , as it's normally a war waiting to happen . It shows what a good bunch we have here that so far everything has been discussed in a friendly manner , but I bet the mods are watching this thread like Gods from above with their beer glasses shaking Amazing how many people celebrate Christmas , or share Easter eggs without the slightest thought for the significance behing the events Edited April 12, 2009 by efctaxi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy the blue Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 I agree Jim . I was brought up with a certain amount of religion , and up untill my teens , we had to attend church every Sunday etc . My grandmother lived with us , and shared a large part of my upbringing . She died a few months before her 100th birthday . Many people have faith , from all walks of life , and that faith genuinely gives some people strength , where others might succumb to their obstacles . I'm not a religious person at all , though I respect others beliefs , providing they are shared if necessary , but not enforced . I would be a liar if I said I have never prayed for a moment , even if I am some what a doubter , but I guess it's only at certain times in our lives that we truly offer our thoughts in such a way , for what ever reason that may be . Do I believe in God ? Not really. Have I ever turned to God ? Yes Quite ironic I guess . As you state , many take comfort from religion , and we as a human race are just as vulnerable and weak as we are strong , and if faith is a healer , councellor , protective force field or anything else that helps people to live their lives , then I'm a live and let live guy . Religion has many guises , and variations upon it's influence , and one mans beliefs are anothers denial , but it is such a fascinating , yet volatile subject , that most discussions I have ever read have ventured into very hostile waters indeed , which is why I , and probably millions of others avoid it vehemently under normal circumstances . I can't remember a forum I've ever been on that didn't have the proverbial ' no religious thread ' in it's rules , and for good reason , as it's normally a war waiting to happen . It shows what a good bunch we have here that so far everything has been discussed in a friendly manner , but I bet the mods are watching this thread like Gods from above with their beer glasses shaking Amazing how many people celebrate Christmas , or share Easter eggs without the slightest thought for the significance behing the events Taxi, like you I don't have any particular leanings to any main stream beliefs but having been brought up a Catholic, married twice, once in a United reform church secondly as in a High Anglican you can say I've boxed the compass but it has taught me one thing.......................respect and that is an item we desparately lack in todays society in fact some look on respect as a weakness.......................what a sad lot we are. By the way that post of yours is the best you've made on this site mate, says everything with thought, feeling and respect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maghull70 Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 The Christians stole Easter from pagan religions so whats the fuss if football steals it back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Pienaar does his bit to keep the day Christian.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy the blue Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 The Christians stole Easter from pagan religions so whats the fuss if football steals it back If you'd have said that about Christmas I couldn't argue, it has nothing to do with any pagan ceremony but then if you have not been taught better what can people expect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 The festival of Pasch, or the Passover, was very early observed by many professing Christians, in commemoration of the death and resurrection of Christ, although it cannot be traced back as far as the Apostles. But Pasch was observed by Christians a full month before the festival of Ishtar was celebrated by the Pagans. In addition, the festival of Ishtar (Easter) now observed in churches is far different from the original festival of Pasch. The amalgamation of the Christian Pasch, as observed in Britain by the Christians, and the Pagan Easter enforced by Rome, occurred by violence and bloodshed. But at last, the Festival of the Anglo-Saxon or Chaldean goddess, Ishtar, came to supersede that which had been held in honor of Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse_Wray Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Its very easy to wonder these talks, as a person who aint very religious. But religions(religious ppl) have the habit of being aggressive when they have someting negative said. We all know that religions are the biggest reason in the history of the wars, these days it might be oil but like i isaid in the history, and not even so far behind Sorry, but I'm going to have to pull you up on that. While I can certainly agree with that statement, it's exactly the same for Athiests. They too can get very aggressive when it comes to religious debate. In my experiences (and I'm not claiming this extends the world over) it's often the fervent Athiests who begin the aggressive diatribe in threads such as this. Pienaar does his bit to keep the day Christian.... This gladdens my heart really. As a Christian I'm really happy to see that Pienaar was able to score one for god (and a cracking goal at that) on Easter Sunday. Whatever qualms I had with playing football on a holy day have been lessened thanks to Pienaar bringing the attention back to God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zequist Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 (edited) The festival of Pasch, or the Passover, was very early observed by many professing Christians, in commemoration of the death and resurrection of Christ, although it cannot be traced back as far as the Apostles. But Pasch was observed by Christians a full month before the festival of Ishtar was celebrated by the Pagans. In addition, the festival of Ishtar (Easter) now observed in churches is far different from the original festival of Pasch. The amalgamation of the Christian Pasch, as observed in Britain by the Christians, and the Pagan Easter enforced by Rome, occurred by violence and bloodshed. But at last, the Festival of the Anglo-Saxon or Chaldean goddess, Ishtar, came to supersede that which had been held in honor of Christ. First problem with that: the Festival of Ishtar was an ancient Babylonian celebration, not a Roman celebration. The Babylonians had long since been wiped out by Jesus' time. Second problem with that: whoever wrote that is probably a Christian fundamentalist from one of the sects that rejects Easter, and they are following some very questionable, far from conclusive, and on some levels thoroughly discredited sources. The theory about the word Easter being derived from a goddess named Eastre comes from the Venerable Bede in the 8th century. However, there is no other historical or archaeological evidence to support Bede's claim that this goddess even existed, which has led to all kinds of debate among scholars about whether she was real or an invention of Bede's. Ishtar wasn't linked to Eastre and Easter until a thousand years later, by the Protestant minister Alexander Hislop in his 19th century book "The Two Babylons." The problem with using "The Two Babylons" as a source to support ANY kind of argument is that Hislop basically wrote it as anti-Catholic propaganda and conspiracy theorizing, claiming that only Protestants worshipped the true God and that Catholic practices were all pagan practices grafted onto "true" Christianity; the book is full of factual errors and dubious connections, and all of his theories have been completely discredited by any reputable religious scholars. Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Babylons http://www.ukapologetics.net/1hislopbaby.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter (especially the "etymology" section) http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/Easter.html Edited April 13, 2009 by JD in DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy the blue Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 First problem with that: the Festival of Ishtar was an ancient Babylonian celebration, not a Roman celebration. The Babylonians had long since been wiped out by Jesus' time. Second problem with that: whoever wrote that is probably a Christian fundamentalist from one of the sects that rejects Easter, and they are following some very questionable, far from conclusive, and on some levels thoroughly discredited sources. The theory about the word Easter being derived from a goddess named Eastre comes from the Venerable Bede in the 8th century. However, there is no other historical or archaeological evidence to support Bede's claim that this goddess even existed, which has led to all kinds of debate among scholars about whether she was real or an invention of Bede's. Ishtar wasn't linked to Eastre and Easter until a thousand years later, by the Protestant minister Alexander Hislop in his 19th century book "The Two Babylons." The problem with using "The Two Babylons" as a source to support ANY kind of argument is that Hislop basically wrote it as anti-Catholic propaganda and conspiracy theorizing, claiming that only Protestants worshipped the true God and that Catholic practices were all pagan practices grafted onto "true" Christianity; the book is full of factual errors and dubious connections, and all of his theories have been completely discredited by any reputable religious scholars. Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Babylons http://www.ukapologetics.net/1hislopbaby.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter (especially the "etymology" section) http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/Easter.html Respect JD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Wasn't presenting it as fact. Was just pointing out that there may be reason for some to come to the conclusion that it comes from Pagan rites, I could link half a dozen sites that'd support that view but I won't bother . It matters nothing to me, each to his own God (or otherwise). But I have to say I find it toe curlingly embarrassing when Pienaar lifts his shirt to proclaim "God is Great," presumably for giving him the strength to score. The idea that, should a supreme being exist, he's going to spend his time making "his" gang score more and run faster than the others I find totally absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy the blue Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Wasn't presenting it as fact. Was just pointing out that there may be reason for some to come to the conclusion that it comes from Pagan rites, I could link half a dozen sites that'd support that view but I won't bother . It matters nothing to me, each to his own God (or otherwise). But I have to say I find it toe curlingly embarrassing when Pienaar lifts his shirt to proclaim "God is Great," presumably for giving him the strength to score. The idea that, should a supreme being exist, he's going to spend his time making "his" gang score more and run faster than the others I find totally absurd. Why should you feel that way if it means nothing to you Mike, it certainly means something to the Pieman, it certainly means more than a certain other vest we all saw and now dispise. As I have said we should respect each other and if that sentiment is found to be toe curling embarrassing to some then they should have a good look at themselves and ask why! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 With all the horrors in the world I find it toe curlingly embarrassing that any sportsman (American sprinters thanking god for their medals started it all off) feels it appropriate to thank god for their meaningless and pointless (in the grand scheme of things) effort. If the supreme being is wasting his time looking after his followers as they hop, skip and jump to world domination then he's a pretty piss-poor deity imo....one or two other little matters he may want to attend to first; war, famine, disease, starvation....that sort of thing. The arrogance of christians thinking he's on their shoulder giving them a hand I find embarrassing because for it to be true you'd have some horrifically laughable heavenly nepotism going on and any god involved in such behaviour should be the one taking a good look at themselves . Priorities you hugeness! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zequist Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Wasn't presenting it as fact. Was just pointing out that there may be reason for some to come to the conclusion that it comes from Pagan rites, I could link half a dozen sites that'd support that view but I won't bother . And I'm just pointing out that the ONLY reasons those people would have to come to that conclusion have their roots in two theological writings of dubious accuracy (one questionable, the other flat-out wrong), and an incorrect translation of the Bible that substitutes "Easter" in a few places where the original text actually says "Passover." I'm a librarian and researcher by profession - sourcing and documenting evidence is what I do for a living. And what I find toe-curlingly embarrassing (and I'm not singling you out here, Mike, just speaking in general terms) is when people take claims that are totally unsubstantiated or have been conclusively proven wrong by anyone with half a brain who's bothered to look at the evidence, and accept them as if they were undisputed facts. In this case it's fairly innocuous because none of us on this forum are going to run out and murder a Catholic for practicing pagan rituals (which, BTW, if you asked any Catholic if they did, they'd either laugh out loud or look at you like they didn't know what the hell you were talking about). However, that kind of un-critical acceptance of "facts" based on sketchy or non-existent evidence CAN lead to some very dangerous thinking if the wrong people take it to the wrong conclusions - racial and ethnic discrimination, unjustified wars (like Iraq), vigilante killings of innocent people, holocaust denial, "end of the world" suicides (see http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/10end.htm for example), and so on. That's why it's so important to look at these things with a critical eye, and not just pass it off like it's the truth just because this or that web site said so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Fully appreciate your position on the matter JD and your research is proven time and again to be second to none. My "research" was a quick glance because I felt Jim was being a bit dimissive of Maghull's point. And I'm just pointing out that the ONLY reasons those people would have to come to that conclusion have their roots in two theological writings of dubious accuracy... But, in the true spirit of one man's ceiling is another man's floor, "theological writings of dubious accuracy" and "'facts' based on sketchy or non-existent evidence" pretty succinctly sums up the Bible in my opinion , so to use it as a basis of fact to disprove another theory is fairly meaningless for me. Incidentally, "people taking claims that are totally unsubstantiated and accepting them as if they were undisputed facts" nicely sums up religion for me. But there we are. Maybe I'm missing something, maybe not....I'll find out soon enough. And I don't find anyone elses beliefs embarrassing, just occasionally the way they express them....the same could as easily go for other's sexuality, gay people are fine with me but I'd find excessive public displays of affection embarrassing, just as I would heterosexual ones come to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue 250 Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 (edited) Tell you what! I really hope to see Pienaar's vest again next weekend!More than once would be great. On religion, I say whatever get's you through. Wouldn't be bothered what he has on his vest, as mentioned "once a Blue, always a Blue", was yesterdays bullshit!....if God is on Pienaar's shoulder, that would be pretty handy at corners and free kicks! PS.....I'm really hoping there is a God, and a heaven.Makes some of the shit down here, just a little bit more barable.And I hope God has a great big stick, that as polititions wander in, he gives them a friggin great big whack on the back of the legs for being greedy and corrupt! Edited April 13, 2009 by Blue 250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Tell you what! I really hope to see Pienaar's vest again next weekend!More than once would be great. I'd have a lot of respect for him if he had a, "Well God made a right pigs-ear of that one!" layer on underneath for when he misses . Or maybe the keeper could have a, "My God's bigger than your God!" one for when he makes a stunning save in the top corner. The possibilities are endless.. "God should have made me play it square for TC because Jo was unmarked at the near post." "Sorry for the miss, God's carrying a slight hamstring strain." Sorry . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zequist Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 But, in the true spirit of one man's ceiling is another man's floor, "theological writings of dubious accuracy" and "'facts' based on sketchy or non-existent evidence" pretty succinctly sums up the Bible in my opinion , so to use it as a basis of fact to disprove another theory is fairly meaningless for me. Well it depends on how you look it at. In this case people are using the Bible (or a mistranslation of the Bible) to support a theory, so pointing out the major flaw in their Biblical interpretation is internally consistent. And incidentally, there is a great deal of support for the truth of many historical events reported in the Bible, in the historical record and in the archaeological evidence uncovered from other ancient civilizations. The miracles and elements of the divine, on the other hand, are matters of faith, which we'll get to in a second. Incidentally, "people taking claims that are totally unsubstantiated and accepting them as if they were undisputed facts" nicely sums up religion for me. But here's the difference, Mike. Religion, by definition, is all about faith, which is pretty much exactly what you described - believing something even in the absence of conclusive proof. There is no way to scientifically prove or disprove the existence of God, heaven and hell, the sacred mysteries, etc., just as there is no way to scientifically prove or disprove the existence of nirvana, nature spirits, the mother goddess, Gabriel appearing to Mohammed, or whatever the dogmas of your particular faith are. You either believe it or you don't. When we're talking about the origins of a word and of a holiday, on the other hand, or those other examples that I gave such having a causus belli on another country, those falls into the realm of evidence that CAN be reasonably proven or disproven. To take things on faith in those matters, without evaluating the available evidence properly, is at best naive and at worst potentially dangerous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest efctaxi Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy the blue Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 With all the horrors in the world I find it toe curlingly embarrassing that any sportsman (American sprinters thanking god for their medals started it all off) feels it appropriate to thank god for their meaningless and pointless (in the grand scheme of things) effort.If the supreme being is wasting his time looking after his followers as they hop, skip and jump to world domination then he's a pretty piss-poor deity imo....one or two other little matters he may want to attend to first; war, famine, disease, starvation....that sort of thing. The arrogance of christians thinking he's on their shoulder giving them a hand I find embarrassing because for it to be true you'd have some horrifically laughable heavenly nepotism going on and any god involved in such behaviour should be the one taking a good look at themselves . Priorities you hugeness! I'm just a tad curious Mike, why specify just Christians as many faiths do the same thing. To my memory the first American black athletes to celebrate in such a fashion actually thanked Allah but you appear not to consider their actions arrogant..........was Ali arrogant to thank Allah for his victories, Joe Frazier thanked God on many occasions because it was his belief and no one should be branded for adhering to there spiritual beliefs no matter what they are. look how Ali has ended up but he still attends a mosque as his belief continues. The vast majority of humanity have some basic religious belief it is only in the so called advanced countries that atheism is considered normal although it could also be called arrogance as it ignores the fact that others may well benefit from a spiritual belief. If you have never felt any benefit from a religious belief how can you criticise others who do or is it on the basis that I am right so people with faith have to be wrong. I have my beliefs, I would not push them down anyones throats claiming that I had to be correct and if anyone tried to 'convert' me I would tell them where to go other wise I have no feeling one way or the other but those who do have deep faith should not be mocked as the inner feeling is personal to them but as you say 'I don't understand' it has nothing to do with a greater spirit on their shoulder but what is in their heart and no man has the right to criticise that no matter what their religion is or isn't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 I'm just a tad curious Mike, why specify just Christians as many faiths do the same thing1. To my memory the first American black athletes to celebrate in such a fashion actually thanked Allah but you appear not to consider their actions arrogant2..........was Ali arrogant to thank Allah for his victories3, Joe Frazier thanked God on many occasions because it was his belief and no one should be branded for adhering to there spiritual beliefs no matter what they are. look how Ali has ended up but he still attends a mosque as his belief continues. The vast majority of humanity have some basic religious belief it is only in the so called advanced countries that atheism is considered normal although it could also be called arrogance as it ignores the fact that others may well benefit from a spiritual belief. If you have never felt any benefit from a religious belief how can you criticise others who do4 or is it on the basis that I am right so people with faith have to be wrong5. I have my beliefs, I would not push them down anyones throats claiming that I had to be correct and if anyone tried to 'convert' me I would tell them where to go other wise I have no feeling one way or the other but those who do have deep faith should not be mocked as the inner feeling is personal to them but as you say 'I don't understand' it has nothing to do with a greater spirit on their shoulder but what is in their heart and no man has the right to criticise that no matter what their religion is or isn't 1. Because that's what we were talking about. 2. Don't I? I didn't say that anywhere. 3. Yes. 4. I haven't. 5. Didn't say that either. I've only offered my opinion. I've not suggested anyone's wrong (or uneducated) for what they believe, no-one needs to go and look at themselves in the mirror. I'm sorry if my views offend you, yours don't offend me....and nor do anyone elses (that have been stated on here)...I thought Christians were supposed to be tolerant . And point taken JD, you can't argue with faith and I gave up trying many years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraccerC Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 (edited) In response to pointing to the sky as Peanuts did: To be honest I don't see it, as MikeO put, to be thanking God for being on your shoulder or helping you in the scoring of a goal. Personally, if/when I do something similar it is still a way of thanking but more so for the blessing of the talent and the opportunity. I think everyone is lucky/blessed in some way and Pienaar is just making a point at how grateful he is that he has been born with, and developed, a natural talent. In a sense it is therefore thanking and also somewhat of a consecration. I'm going to stop as I've found it hard to explain what I mean so I apologise if it seems a bit muddled or repetitive. Essentially what I think I'm trying to say is that it's different, it's not just for one simple act but the gift of life and talent and the dedication. Another action taken by sportsmen is quite similar, the making if the cross. As I understand it that too is both an act of faith and that term 'consecration' again. I've done that before too but I feel it's now too commonly used by many who may not understand the meaning of it (I didn't when I was younger). If you don't believe in it then it's not really as issue and you're obviously not expected to know what it means or to crack it out when you trot onto the park or burst the net. This is an opinion really, not to disagree but just as another perspective. I don't really mind people being atheist or anything else it's not any of my business, but as a Christian that's just my take on it Edit: Sorry for going quite far off topic with that For the purpose of this topic, I don't mind that there's football on Easter Sunday. I can see both sides but as has been said if you don't want to go then don't. It's up to the individual if they want to celebrate Easter or go to the match, I suppose the match could be seen as a celebration too so who is anyone really to say that it's wrong. Edited April 13, 2009 by CraccerC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy the blue Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 In response to pointing to the sky as Peanuts did: To be honest I don't see it, as MikeO put, to be thanking God for being on your shoulder or helping you in the scoring of a goal. Personally, if/when I do something similar it is still a way of thanking but more so for the blessing of the talent and the opportunity. I think everyone is lucky/blessed in some way and Pienaar is just making a point at how grateful he is that he has been born with, and developed, a natural talent. In a sense it is therefore thanking and also somewhat of a consecration. I'm going to stop as I've found it hard to explain what I mean so I apologise if it seems a bit muddled or repetitive. Essentially what I think I'm trying to say is that it's different, it's not just for one simple act but the gift of life and talent and the dedication. Another action taken by sportsmen is quite similar, the making if the cross. As I understand it that too is both an act of faith and that term 'consecration' again. I've done that before too but I feel it's now too commonly used by many who may not understand the meaning of it (I didn't when I was younger). If you don't believe in it then it's not really as issue and you're obviously not expected to know what it means or to crack it out when you trot onto the park or burst the net. This is an opinion really, not to disagree but just as another perspective. I don't really mind people being atheist or anything else it's not any of my business, but as a Christian that's just my take on it Edit: Sorry for going quite far off topic with that For the purpose of this topic, I don't mind that there's football on Easter Sunday. I can see both sides but as has been said if you don't want to go then don't. It's up to the individual if they want to celebrate Easter or go to the match, I suppose the match could be seen as a celebration too so who is anyone really to say that it's wrong. To sum up Craccer you seem to look at matters in a similar fashion to myself.................. Mike I'm unsure as to how your notation works but assuming that its a suffix and not a prefix here we go 1. Because that's what we were talking about. I was talking about anyones right to a faith and a belief which to my way of reading this thread is far more appropriate 2. Don't I? I didn't say that anywhere. I never said you said that I said you appeared to say that 3. Yes. if thats the case why does he still attend a mosque, he still holds his belief although he can hardly speak these days poor man 4. I haven't. calling Christians arrogant isn't a form of criticism? 5. Didn't say that either. but that is what you are saying as you admit you can't understand why they do these things I live with a wife and daughter who are both committed Christians, I am not one of them nor will I become as what faith I have isn't sufficient to sustain a strong belief. That said my one wish is that either of them could have a trace of arrogance about them but they have none as it is looked upon as a form of sin but both of them will openly thank God for events in their lives just as Pienaar did on Sunday, it is a form of humility which to my way of looking at things is a country mile from arrogance. I wonder why Arteta, the Yak, Vic, Joey Yobo and the Pieman all bless themselves when running on the park, certainly isn't a sign to say look at me I'm an arrogant big head................................ Have no fear Mike I'm not falling out with you but I really do object to your use of the word arrogant as it is totally inappropriate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest efctaxi Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maghull70 Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 (edited) If you'd have said that about Christmas I couldn't argue, it (Easter) has nothing to do with any pagan ceremony but then if you have not been taught better what can people expect Oh dear. Easter does have pagan origins. Something to do with the spring equinox and a fertility festival. I would like to know how you actually account for the Easter Bunny being part of a Christian festival?. The bunny (or hare) is to do with the fertility and is directly from pre-christian traditions. And as for eggs and resurrection its all about Spring and the rebirth of life/crops etc. (which was nicely tweaked as the rebirth Christ). But you just keep your mind closed to such ideas, wouldnt want to upset your God with common sense. Edited April 14, 2009 by Maghull70 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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