paul

The link's not really working for me. I go onto a screen saying log in or register then it leads to sedoparking advert screen?

It's something I would like clarified. It is fine when fans sit but I'd like it confirmed that it's the case when they stand. The exec boxes can also put the fans at the back off from standing up in front of it though. Plus what are the odds on the police control room being in the 'back of block 4' position? The break in tiers also means that at best we'll get fans at the lower standing, but the roof is too far above to spread the songs around.

Yes it is. They both have the same no of rows of seats on the lower, 30. Upper is similar number. The Kirkby exec boxes are placed slightly lower, so anyone standing up in the lower tier will probably get told to sit down as they're blocking the view of the xec boxes. So it appears that our board believe that Blackburn has the best End Stand in the country.

By the way, I don't just want one of them. I want a kop like stand behind both goals. When the next generation of Evertonians come through in about 15 years they won't know any different. In fact they'd be laughing at Liverpool for only having one good End stand, and we'll have 2! Or I suppose we could build un-atmospheric stands like we are doing, and tell our kids excuses like singing is for wools

Thinking of the new stadiums in the Premiership, I'm not jealous of any. It's hard to say which 'acoustics' are best, because it's the positioning of the acoustical source, that and the type of stand that is below it, that is more important. If that is done right then it can make a cheaper roof appear better. If the stand type is wrong then even the best roof can't amplify noise if there is no noise! The best stand, is Liverpool's. It makes me laugh when kopites think they're great fans cos of their atmosphere. Any team who had an End Stand as good as theirs would be able to have a good atmosphere. It's someone who drives a Ferrari thinking they're a better driver cos they can go round a track quicker than someone who drives a Lada!

Re teppic, Cologne has a form of terracing in there End Stand and that's why it works for them. We don't have that form of terracing so we therefore have different requirements from our stadium in order for our singers being able to sand up. As it is, the singers will be put off from standing up if they have exec boxes right behind them, and standing up in an upper tier is a safety risk and far harder to encourage. If you prefer the look that's one thing, but we cannot put a mere aesthetic opinion over actual quality, it would be like puuting Valente at lb over say Lescott. When it comes to views the large single tier will actually have better views at the back, the current design will be about 2 metres higher up the exact height of the exec boxes. If we were talking about a large single tier with 100+ rows of seats I'd agree with you, there is a maximum you can reach before viewing is compromised we would not reach that by having a 60-70 row End Stand (See my response to Licker). Draw them both types of End Stands now and you'll see what I mean by viewing slightly better for a large single tier than the current Kirkby design! So come on pencils and rulers out! Re: Licker, I agree that if the Upper significantly overlapped the lower then the underside could be used as a source of amplification. If the underside of the upper was designed with with acoustics in mind then I wouldn't be so disappointed with this. However, consider this, the current Kirkby design has 30 lower and 31 upper, assuming they were to overlap, then our singers in the lower would only have 30 rows compared to currently with 41 rows, so even if we shuffled Kirkby to 41 on the lower and 21 on the upper then while it would be an improved Gwladys Street, I want us to be the best. So just say the great times came along loads and we needed to expand, we decide that we like not having a bowl shaped ground so we decided to expand via an extra tier, we eventually choose an End Stand to add this tier to. That would make a 3 tiered End Stand, the more tiers there are the more filtered the atmosphere is, anything over 2 tiers just isn't good enough. So if we start off with a large single tier, then we have the choice of adding 30 rows to it (which could then compromise viewing at the back as it would be about 90+ rows - teppic), or by adding a second tier that overlaps our large single tier. This would make our End stand 2 tiered overlapping for acoustics with 60 odd rows on the bottom and 30 on top, now that would be a vastly improved Gwladys Street. Re StevO. Our current Gwladys Street is not a bad design because it is an overlapping two tiered stand. It is bad because of design faults within that structure. Firstly, take what Licker said about the underside of the Upper providing the amplification for the singers directly below it, and therefore acting as a roof for them. Well if you take a look at it from under there it's not designed to project the songs out it's the wrong angle and material to do this. This could be rectified if we were to have a new overlapping double tier. The next problem is that we don't get the songs going now because our singers don't stand up, this is due to a very low beam obstructing the views of those at the back of the stand so they can't see when they stand up, they therefore tell everyone to sit down. Your next point about Man U is one that I'm glad you've brought up. Their fans constantly make the extra effort to purposely stand up, this is from constant encouragement from their fanzines to get fans to stand up. So they have pockets of fans in 3 areas of the ground making that extra effort to stand. Again they struggle with numbers standing. The ones who stand in the lower tier leead to blocking views of Executives in the boxes directly behind them, which has lead to executives getting the stewards involved in removing those standing, and real sense of us and them attitude in the stands. We would simply just end up sitting down. In their Stretford upper this is one place where they do get away with standing even though this is a safety risk. Again it is so much harder to encourage fans to stand up in the upper tier. There is no concertina effect up there (ie front row stands so rest stands) fans therefore purposely stand to get everyone else standing which requires a lot of organisation to do. Eg I don't know where you sit in the ground but imagine if you believed in everyone standing up would you be the first man to do this every single match to encourage those around you to do. Not easy is it. Now imagine tring to get the entire upper first row standing again very hard to organise.

It annoys how they say it's a nod to tradition that it's two tiers. For a start since when is having Executive boxes in the middle of our Ends traditional? Also Goodison has Tiers that overlap each other, we do not have a tradition of 2 tiers that don't overlap each other. You may think that it sounds like a minor detail, it's not it's huge. I find it astonishing that we've had a design that's held back our atmosphere for years and we don't try and fix our problem. We cannot put up with inferior atmospheres just because of a poor attempt at tradition. It is our tradition to be innovators, trying to be the the best, competing. We should have a kop like stand behind both goals. I'm not aware of another big club in Europ that has that. It should be our aim to be the best. Teppic you're wrong about those at the back of a large single tier struggling to see the pitch compared to the current design. The current design of Kirkby does not overlap the lower tier. there is therefore 30 rows lower and 31 in the upper. If we had a large single tier it would be 61 rows the last row wouldn't be any further back. No ground does make 'thumping' noise every week because not every fan is up for it every week, but they do get noise, some far more than others. At your worst games eg Derby, other grounds do get noise because the singers can stand up under a roof to bellow out the songs to the rest of the fans, if the design is wrong this restricts this, ie Everton now. Your last point about safe standing the best you can hope for, is for stading in front of your seat. This is being pushed for by a campaign called Standupsitdown, but due to safety regulation this cannot happen in upper tiers. Therefore in Kirkby, this won't be able to happen in Kirkby, the executive boxes are directly behind the last row so they could have their view blocked and it will also deter fans from standing up. Also even if this was overcome the roof is an entire tier above, so the songs will not resonate well.

It's about quality first over tradition. I could say that we traditionally have posts obstructing our view. It is tradition to play at Goodison. Don't forget our first 60 years we had a single tier as our main end. While I don't dispute that character is important, it cannot ever be in place over quality. A reproduction of the Leitch criss-crosses can add the character. After all our motto is Nil Satis nisi optimum, it's not the latin for 'We like towo tiered stands'! Re : your second point about having a larger upper tier. An important factor for singing is for your fans to stand up. It's a lot harder to encourage fans to stand up constantly in an upper tier. So if there's a lack of standing there's a lack of singing which means it's a waste of time having the acoustics. When you said about the roof being too far above the lower tier, you'd be right if you were talking about the current Kirkby design. However with the Gwladys St now, the singers go under the upper tier. The songs do struggle to project themselves out but that is more to do with the fact that the underside of the upper Gwladys St is not designed with acoustics in mind, if it was then you'd notice the difference.

It's just the structure I want, not the smell of it as well!

Hi Licker, yes I was bit flippant with the use of the word 'when' over 'if', the question of move was not the issue I wanted to raise. It was more about the quality of the End Stands.

It would take a bitter Evertonian to dismiss the atmospheric qualities that Liverpool have with the kop. So why aren't we trying to replicate this stand when we move to Kirkby? Are we worried that we may get skitted by Liverpool fans for copying it? Can't be that, the design we have for Kirkby is the same as their Centenary stand. Is it about identity and tradition? Can't be that, our identity and tradition is about adhering to the motto Nil Satis Nisi Optimum and a kop like structure is more superior. Identity can be replicated by reproducing the like of the recreation of the Leitch criss-crosses on the side stands. It should not comproise quality. Is it because of executive boxes? No, can't be, they can always double them up on the side stands, which would actually slightly increase the number of executive boxes. Do they think the current Kirkby design is better than a kop like design? Can't be that, Villa, Rangers, Blackburn, Celtic and Man U all complain about the inadequacies of their design. To say that Liverpool have the better atmosphere is down solely to the fans is not only simplistic but also an insult to thousands over Evertonians who have been going in the Gwladys Street over the years. Any long standing singers in the Gwladys Street will tell you how we do have a more than respectable back catalogue of songs, but we have always struggled with the atmosphere due to the inferior structure. Liverpool don't have great fans when it comes to singing, that is the hype, they have do however have a great stand, they got lucky. For us not to replicate this stand, would not be a question of luck, but would be sheer stupidity in my opinion. It's time to compete with them, I don't want 1 kop like structure, I want 2, I want to be better than they are. Fight fire with fire so to speak. If we don't get a stand to compete ourselves, and the next generations of Evertonians will have to carry on pretending that atmosphere is for wool etc. Fine if people don't wish to sing, fine, but we should still have a design that is there for us, and not one that prohibits the singing. By order of Nil Satis Nisi Optimum, Everton must have kop like structure behind both goals

Yeah I watched, it seems ludicrous seeing a goal like that disallowed now doesn't it? I thought we played well in that game, put together a couple of moves. John Bailey looked overweight, not that I can say anything mind!, although he seemed ok on the ball

The sad thing is though, is that you used to need the equivalent of 2 points per game to be there or thereabouts for the championship. That equates top 76 points. That will not be anywhere near enough nowadays.

I bought mine off ebay. It's brilliant

According to Billy Smith's Account of the 1888/89 season, we were doing it then so we've been doing it for at least 120 years! How good's that. Even Liverpool's goalie gets clapped, I think he does anyway?

Blueinvalencia, back in those days are you aware of us singing any Catholic or Protestant based songs?

Fields of Athenry was sung in the late 80s a couple of times by Everton. Didn't last long though. Also, in the 1985 Rotterdam final the original got sung by the Celtic fans who came down to support us. I'm sure there are a few that we've took off them in the past too even if they were shortlived

That is now. I'm talking about if we need to go beyond 60k in say 25 years time. You cannot predict the future but you can at least try to prepare for it. What harm would it do?? I'm not saying to build beyond 50k I'm saying we should allow for it to be expandable beyond 60k.

It is totally shortsighted. Who knows how popular we could be in 25 years time. The stadium is 50k, add the corners 60k. Why don't they allow for an extra tier to be built on each stand as well?? Just say we have some success we will have extra fans, say 10k wanting to go. If we allow for an extra tier we'll have the choice of either retaining 4 individual stands and adding an extra tier to a side stand or to fill in 4 corners. What harm would it do to give ourselves choice? Even if we never do require to go beyond say 50k, so what. But if we ever have to go above 60k we screwed. No-one can predict the future. Only 13 yrs when the Park End was getting built everyone was saying we won't need to go above 40k, but we did and it cost us our stadium.

Any 80s St Enders remember the words to the 'My Old Man said be a Liverpool fan'? I know I've asked couple of you already but what other lesser known Everton songs were going back then? I was only young at the time so when I didn't get took in the Main Stand with my dad I'd sometimes go in the St End but right at the front. Completely oblivious to the joys of the back of the middle!

Sorry wrong forum!

Anyone know the words, it was about his goal against Liverpool in the last minute which gave Arsenal the title around 1989, it may have included Alan Smith in the words, if I remember rightly. Any remember it?

If for some odd reason, you're the type of person to be embarrassed by entering the Intertoto Cup, surely you should be more embarraed by failing to enter it and not get into Europe at all. Who wants to play Preston etc in July when you can go abroad to watch Everton in a Saturday afternoon fixture in the July sun for an opportunity to get in the UEFA Cup? To my mind the Intertoto Cup is boss, I'd want to play in it every year if we could. It would certainly help with a good Everton fix in the summer.

Well done, Licker. I am not at all surprised though by Ian Ross' attitude I've emailed that arrogant idiot a few times in the past only to receive similar responses.

Where did you hear that one? I can't see how the Athenry one fits in. In terms of the letters that's an absolue disgrace. It's our team, it's up to us what's sung