Groundshare

[Louis]

Debate on Radio Merseyside earlier on Roger Philips show.. basically two architects have said that two stadiums is a waste and they said a 60,000 rising to 80,000 stadium could be on the agenda.

 

I know what you're thinking and the answer is White seats but with blue and red lights depending on who is playing at home.

[zequist]

Well, AC and Inter share the San Siro, and it doesn't seem to have hurt either of their fortunes over the years...

[jacko 1990]

do you have any idea what the liverpool fans thoughts on this is because they are getting a decent stadium anyway arn't they so why would they want to share with us?

Edited February 27, 2008 by jacko1990

[Bill]

Liverpool D.C should have done this two years ago and built a superstadium to share in stanley park, funded by the City of Culture money, as a lasting monument to both Football Clubs.

Any investment would be aimed in the one Direction and not split between two grounds, all concerts and and Gigs would not be divided, endless possibilities for extra income, and this could still be the best way forward. IMO.

 

See what i did there Bestway.

[GoldfishMemory]

Always been dead against a ground share but I'd take one now over Kirkby.

[Louis]

Shared Stadium

 

This article has been presented to KEIOC by Trevor Skempton. We feel that all options for keeping Everton within the city, specifically within the traditional north Liverpool environs, should be explored. Whilst it is true that Trevor personally favours a redeveloped Goodison or an iconic development on Scotland Rd due to his work on St James Park he has been approached as a professional architect of some renown in stadia matters, to solve just a few of the many problems a joint stadium would present.

 

KEIOC’s position is that whilst we see and understand the logic behind a shared stadium proposition football is intrinsically illogical. Why do grown men become emotional at the sound of an old sea shanty and the emergence of eleven men in royal blue shirts? Why do you get a tingle down your spine when you walk into a collection of four buildings that surround a field? Why do you feel you're with your own kind when with a group of strangers in a stadium or a pub, when essentially the only common tie is supporting the same football club, a camaraderie that, thankfully, transcends all backgrounds including class, gender, education, colour and creed? Of course nobody can answer any of these questions with an ounce of logic and it's probably why a shared stadium will always require a phenomenal leap of faith from both sets of match going supporters whose culture, tradition and values differ manifestly possibly due to the magnitude and concentration of success over the lifespan of the respective clubs. Everton's success, great players and great teams being spread throughout its rich one hundred and thirty year history whilst Liverpool's unparalleled success being concentrated into a thirty year period which has included incomparable success, disaster and tragedy leading to a club with both national and international appeal and standing.

 

The circumstances behind both clubs need for new stadia are different as are their requirements, KEIOC understand the thoughts and feelings of thousands of loyal match going Evertonian’s, it's like some Divine Comedy - hell - purgatory and paradise!!! Make your choice!

 

Time to Share?

 

 

Everton’s moves towards a medium-range stadium in Kirkby have attracted wide-spread opposition within a club that professes that ‘nothing but the best is good enough’. In the meantime, Liverpool’s more ambitious proposals for a ‘New Anfield’ are running into difficulties in the face of the club’s mounting debts.

 

It has been suggested that it is now time for Everton and Liverpool to give serious consideration to sharing a new stadium, to ensure a fitting home for the two clubs and sufficient revenue to allow them to compete at the highest level of World Football.

 

David Backhouse is an architect and a life-long Liverpool supporter, who believes that it is a dreadful waste of resources for the two clubs to be considering building two separate new stadia. He has challenged Trevor Skempton, a life-long Evertonian and also an architect, to help bring forward details that might make a shared stadium acceptable.

 

 

 

Trouble Ahead

 

The objections to sharing are understandable. Each club has a precious identity and fabulous history, forged through a deep rivalry. In business terms, each club relies on careful product differentiation and unique selling points.

 

Elsewhere, successful ground-sharing is rarer than is often supposed. Internationale and AC Milan are often quoted. Munich also. But divorce is in the air in Turin and Rome, and closer to home, Charlton couldn’t wait to get back to their own ground. Nor Fulham. Sharing wouldn’t work in Glasgow or Manchester, but could we be a special case?

 

In financial terms, the arguments for sharing are compelling. A truly world-class stadium, financed a third by each club and a third by outside bodies, need not eat into precious resources required for immediate team-building. But the challenge is to create a proposal that would not only safeguard, but actually strengthen, each club’s independent character.

 

It could be a condition of the public-funding element that both clubs commit themselves long-term to playing all their home matches in the stadium, thus preventing any future franchising proposals that might take either club away from the City of Liverpool.

 

 

Alternative Proposals

 

These thumbnail sketch-plans show the two clubs as near neighbours in North Liverpool.

 

On the left is the present arrangement, with the two grounds locked into their respective communities of tight streets, separated only by Stanley Park. The outline of the proposed New Anfield is superimposed on the east side of the park.

 

The central sketch shows the possibility of expanding each ground to seat 60,000, each club developing two new stands and making modest changes to their stadium footprint. Shared underground parking is constructed beneath a new all-weather playing surface, containing four full-size football pitches, in the centre of Stanley Park. A reconstructed sports centre provides facilities for major events within the park.

 

The right-hand sketch plan shows a single Stanley Park stadium, eventually seating 80,000. The present sites are used to expand the green space into Walton and Anfield, as well as providing for surrounding hotels, flats and commercial development.

 

 

 

 

Separate Pavilions

 

There would be separate pavilions in opposite corners. Each pavilion would contain both home and away dressing rooms and would be the freehold property of the club.

 

The north corner would contain the Everton FC Pavilion, incorporating the David France Collection and ‘1878 Hotel’, with access from Priory Road. A landmark Conical Tower would also be visible inside the stadium, above a video screen, pavilion window and players’ tunnel. Over the outside door would be the words ‘Nil Satis Nisi Optimum’.

 

The south corner would contain the Liverpool FC Pavilion, together with the Club Museum and the ‘Kop Hotel’, with access from Anfield Road. A landmark Liver Bird would also be visible from inside the stadium above a video screen, pavilion window and players’ tunnel. Over the outside door would be the words ‘You’ll Never Walk Alone’.

 

 

Different Stands

 

The two large L-shaped stands would be to contrasting designs, not specific to either club, but having echoes of the historic structures. Seats could multi-coloured to disguise any unoccupied areas, or they could be white to take on the colour of alternative blue and red lights. The west stand would seat 40,000 in a single sweeping tier, with a translucent roof to minimise overshadowing of the pitch. The east stand would also seat 40,000, but in three overlapping tiers. The top tier, of 14,000 seats, would be constructed as a later phase, space being left beneath the roof, giving an initial capacity of 66,000.

 

 

 

 

A first impression of how the stadium might fit into the middle of Stanley Park, well away from residential areas and without disturbing the historic structures and lakes. A new open landscape would be created on the East side of the park. Car parking would be provided within the stadium structure, and new public transport arrangements would be to the benefit of both clubs. The existing grounds would become extensions to the park, new hotels and flats helping to form the enclosures. The historic pitches and the original Archibald Leitch stands at Goodison would be retained and adapted for community use.

 

 

The objective would be to create, quite simply, the finest football stadium in the world, one that is unique to the City of Liverpool and its two famous clubs. By sharing, such an objective could be affordable. Although not necessary at the outset [at least, from a football point of view], the design could allow for the future fitting of a retractable roof and pitch to cater for a range of secondary events and activities.

 

 

 

Final Comments

 

David Backhouse says:

 

“My mother was born in Skerries Road and her ashes are scattered in the park. Stanley Park played a major part in our upbringing. We have a wonderful opportunity to improve the park and make it even more relevant to future generations in both Anfield and Walton. Also, it seems an obscenity in this day and age to consider building two virtually identical new stadia in this city.”

 

Trevor Skempton says:

 

“Given the inadequacy of the Kirkby proposal, the financial questions over the ‘New Anfield’, and the future possibility that either club might take the ‘global-franchise’ hype seriously and move away, Cunard-like, from its roots in the City of Liverpool… locking us both into a shared world-class stadium could be an idea whose time has come.”

[Pat]

Never.

[GoldfishMemory]

Never.

 

Even over Kirkby?

 

The way I see it this Kirkby move has destroyed everything this club was built on anyway so we may as well grasp onto a bit of integrity and retain our place in the city.

Edited February 28, 2008 by GoldfishMemory

[Josh Berno]

Even over Kirkby?

 

The way I see it this Kirkby move has destroyed everything this club was built on anyway so we may as well grasp onto a bit of integrity and retain our place in the city.

 

Totally agree rarther groundshare than Kirkby it has some good factors to it too.

 

Imagine the atmosphere at the derby in our shared superstadium would be excellent.

We would share the rental cost of the grounds so we wouldnt be paying all of it as we would if we moved to kirkby. That alone would save up money.

 

 

We would get all that shit from the shite " yas are that poor u ad to share stadiums wit us " but them boneheads wudnt no we pay the same rental money for the stadium and the building of the stadium.

[Louis]

Laing O'Rourke say Liverpool haven't got the cash for their new stadium:

 

http://www.contractjournal.com/Articles/20...-late-2009.html

 

I think there is a high probability of the groundshare happening simply because it makes financial sense.

 

I decided to add to this thread instead of starting a new one on groundsharing

[Jimmy the blue]

I started out wanting ground share, when they got planning permission I wanted Kirkby because we would wilt in the shadow of that proposed new stadium. Now they have question marks over finance then OK I'm back to yes to ground share again its the most economically viable solution for all parties. Just think if we get the backer thats number six in the worlds rich list we could dictate matters as we could be funding the bulk of it making them our tenants.................subject to council approval of course

[paul]

No. We will be the meffs in their stadium. What next share kits to save money? Lets just have our own ground eh! It may make sense to the shareholders and the accountants but it doesn't make sense to the fans.

 

A shared stadium will be associated with Liverpool. Look at their exposure compared to ours. It is not equal in the slightest. We're not tramps. Let's have some pride.

[StevO]

do inter not have pride at san siro?

a comment from aldo i heard made some sense. it could be done if the fans could accept it, but to accept it, it would have to be without doubt the best club stadium in the world.

[Everton_Worshiper]

I would be up for a ground share - would need to look better than the picture in the beginning of the thread.

As mentioned, a shared stadium would need to be one of the best stadiums around for it to work.

[Everton_Worshiper]

So does anyone want to create a ToffeeTalk shared stadium design? I have some models for Google Sketchup and willing (providing I have the time) to knock up some example shared stadium models. Please note I am not a designer by trade!

 

So far I like the idea of club crests either side of the stadium. I also like the idea of what appears to be 2 slugs combining 2 stands each that curve around (hard to visualise at this point) to form the stands.

 

Any other ideas...? (At this point just shared stadium ideas).

 

 

For anyone that is interested, Liverpools new stadium has been modeled:

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/det...mp;prevstart=24

 

And I like Porto's stadium:

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/det...amp;prevstart=0

Edited October 8, 2008 by Everton_Worshiper

[StevO]

love porto's design, that would be sweeeet!

[EFC-Paul]

Oh that Liverpool stadium is abit well shit to say the least oh well

I really liked the Birds Nest stadium they built for the olympics very unique and for a 91.000 seater at 246.2022 million pounds is money well spent makes you laff considering Wembly cost 798 million :weird:

Edited October 9, 2008 by EFC-Paul

[Everton_Worshiper]

love porto's design, that would be sweeeet!

 

What would make the Porto design better is 2 spire hotels either conrner of the pitch with penthouse style box rooms (would be beneficial if the groundshare became the North's main stadium for events). Imagine watching the game from your hotel room with panoramic windows - dream world I know but would it would sell a matchday ticket & a room in the hotel.

[DangerMouse]

Im open to the idea of a ground share and would poss prefer more tha a move to kirkby.....

However im sure as we are repeatedly told that we wouldnt fill a 50k seater stadium what would we do in a 60k seater staduim????

 

Id hate the idea of seeing them lot fill the ground every week while we would have most of the ground full of empty seats.....

[EFC-Paul]

The shite would struggle to fill a 60.000 seater aswell their average attendace although higher then ours is still way out 43764. Its a hard one to judge really i know people are comparing it to Ac Milan and Inter but this is a different country different cultures and different interpretations of football and its morale history. Its a tough one to call tbh if it where between Kirby and the groundshare my head says go with the ground share as am sure it would generate both clubs a bigger income but then my heart says Kirby as atleast we would keep most of our own identity.

Edited October 10, 2008 by Licker

[Bill]

erm Kirky Town FC.

[EFC-Paul]

Haha git

[paul]

So does anyone want to create a ToffeeTalk shared stadium design? I have some models for Google Sketchup and willing (providing I have the time) to knock up some example shared stadium models. Please note I am not a designer by trade!

 

So far I like the idea of club crests either side of the stadium. I also like the idea of what appears to be 2 slugs combining 2 stands each that curve around (hard to visualise at this point) to form the stands.

 

Any other ideas...? (At this point just shared stadium ideas).

 

 

For anyone that is interested, Liverpools new stadium has been modeled:

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/det...mp;prevstart=24

 

And I like Porto's stadium:

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/det...amp;prevstart=0

 

Cant tell what Porto's stadium is like from that picture. Any better pictures of it?

[Johnny Bryant]

I would be up for a ground share and think it would be a really good idea, but it would defo have to be better than that design, but i do like the idea of the tower in the one corner of the stadium

[Sporting4ever]

Cant tell what Porto's stadium is like from that picture. Any better pictures of it?

 

 

 

 

 

[Louis]

Rubbish then.

[paul]

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for putting them up. If they extend that End Stand to the same height as the roof then it'll do me fine!

[StevO]

is it just one end that doesnt go to the roof? i sort of like that thou.

whats the capacity?

 

edit, bit of info.

holds 50,399

finished in 2003 and only cost 98m euros, what a bargain. probably as much as kirkby is costing.

some good pics here http://www.fcporto.pt/English/stadium_gallery.asp construction pics too

Edited October 12, 2008 by StevO

[Randomness]

no way of getting a stadium that cheap in this present climate.

 

i like the Dragão mainly for its san siro esque platform roof at the ends

[paul]

is it just one end that doesnt go to the roof? i sort of like that thou. capacity?

 

edit, bit of info.

holds 50,399

finished in 2003 and only cost 98m euros, what a bargain. probably as much as kirkby is costing.

some good pics here http://www.fcporto.pt/English/stadium_gallery.asp construction pics too

 

I don't know if it is just one end that doesn't go to the roof. It is one poor aspect of an otherwise very good stadium from what I can see. It's not a good feature that it doesn't go to the roof because this will not be good for the acoustics and also means that you will have a small and open end stand.

 

Increase the End Stand to the roof and its a winner!