Safe Standing...

[Louis]

Keith the don/Chief Wyness has requested that a trial for standing during the games be conducted at Everton..

 

It can only be a good thing for us as lots of people want standing reintroduced but it will not be like it was before as safety proceedures still have to be followed.. See picture below:

 

 

It is worth pointing out that the people behind the hillsbrough disaster memorial are against it for obvious reasons.

 

EVERTON FC chief executive Keith Wyness has revealed the club would be interested in the possible return of a limited standing area, if they proceed with a proposed move to a new stadium.

 

In what is certain to be a controversial speech, the Goodison official told a House of Commons seminar that Everton might be interested in a pilot scheme if the Government changed the current all-seating ground regulations.

 

Mr Wyness stressed he was aware of the sensitivity of the issue after standing was originally banned following the Lord Justice Taylor report into the 1989 Hillsborough disaster when 96 Liverpool FC fans lost their lives.

 

Mr Wyness told the seminar: “As you can all imagine, this is a very sensitive issue because of where we are situated. We are looking for a new stadium and one of our options is that we could have a standing area.

 

“I personally went to Germany recently and watched a game at Cologne and was amazed by the atmosphere in the standing area.

 

“If the Government will discuss it, we may be prepared to offer ourselves as a trial if necessary.”

 

Phil Gatenby, who was at the Commons as the Football Supporters’ Federation’s safe standing officer, said: “Keith Wyness stood up with a microphone in front of 50 people to make his comments.”

 

Liberal Democrat MP Mike Hancock has tabled a motion in Parliament for the return of standing areas and attended Wednesday’s seminar about safe standing at football.

 

Mr Hancock said: “Mr Wyness said he understood it was a sensitive issue, because of the location, and out of the respect the club has for its neighbours.

 

“They would want to do it along the lines of covered seats that could be taken out or locked away as they do in Germany, which I favour as a very good system.

 

“They only said they were looking to see if it could be done as they build the new stadium.

 

“The standing areas would not be huge, nobody is suggesting that.

 

“Perhaps 10% of the stadium could be made available for certain games – for example, European games are covered by UEFA rules and must be seated.

 

“He said in this process, if it was to be looked into and one club was to try and experiment, he would want to offer the club, only because it is a new build.

 

“To be fair to him, he said he understood and respected the sensitivities in Liverpool and made that quite clear.”

 

The official inquiry into the Leppings Lane crush at Sheffield Wednesday’s Hillsborough ground, conducted by Lord Taylor, blamed poor policing and inadequate facilities for the tragedy, but the main recommendation was for the introduction of all-seater stadia and the removal of perimeter fencing.

 

Now 136 MPs have backed Mr Hancock’s Early Day Motion for “the Government to re-examine the case for introducing, small, limited sections of safe standing areas”. Conservative Party leader David Cameron has agreed to talks if elected.

 

Everton FC was the only Premiership football club represented at the seminar.

 

Last night, Hillsborough justice campaigner Jenni Hicks, who lost daughters, Sarah, 15, and Vicki, 19, in the tragedy, said: “I don’t want to say anything personal about Everton, but I am surprised that another Liverpool club is wanting to do this.

 

“I’m definitely against standing in football grounds.”

 

But fellow campaigner Shaun Smith said small, well-supervised standing areas could be acceptable in future.

 

He added: “The bottom line is, as long as the standing area is not extensively large and is well monitored, we would be supportive of that.”

 

Everton fans, too, approach- ed the idea with caution.

 

Richard Lewis, of independent group Everton Shareholders 2005, said: “I’m surprised, as we meet with Keith Wyness quarterly and there has never been any mention of this.

 

“It’s a backwards step from when stadiums didn’t have the technology to provide seats on different tiers.

 

“But if supporters want it, the club wants it, and it’s completely controlled and monitored, I imagine it would be harmless.”

 

Amanda Mathews, from Stand Up Sit Down, a group campaigning to give support- ers the choice, praised Mr Wyness for taking part in the debate. She said: “This is a brave step, as this was a public meeting.

 

“We very much hope that Everton’s open-mindedness on this issue will cause other Premiership clubs to follow suit and join in the discussion on behalf of their supporters.”

[thebluenose]

sorry if im being disrespectful. but hillsborough happened 18 years ago. it was a tragedy but things have changed. in germany they have safe standing as they do in japan.

 

we should have safe standing areas.

[GoldfishMemory]

Why is there seats in the picture??

[Randomness]

Standing would be safe now that police treat football fans like people and not vermin.

[Romey 1878]

Standing would be safe now that police treat football fans like people and not vermin.

 

 

Liam would disagree with that

[GoldfishMemory]

Standing would be safe now that police treat football fans like people and not vermin.

 

 

Liam would disagree with that

 

Merseyside police would love the opportunity for a good baton charge!

[Blue4Ever]

I dont mean to sound horrible aswell it did happen years ago and this has went to far they should just get on with football and what happend may have been sad but we need to get on with things including a uefa cup place!

[Louis]

In the above picture the seats are foldable back and forth and there is a large bar in front of the seats for people to rest on whilst standing.

[GoldfishMemory]

In the above picture the seats are foldable back and forth and there is a large bar in front of the seats for people to rest on whilst standing.

 

Ahhh so its standing but with seats incase you wanna park your arse.

 

I dont think theres any point in bringing in that style of terrace at all its just like a normal seated stand with the added cost of putting in all the metal bars. Football fans wont get the atmosphere they crave with metal railings between each row of people and there will be moaning from now to eternity that clubs have spent so much money and not actually captured what the fans want by re-introducing terraces!

 

What they should do if they are seriously going to bring them back is section off rows at the back of the stand over the full lengh. That way the people who want this most will be located in a position they already hold in football grounds where they can create a wall of sound that rolls down and lifts the fans into song. Making this section of limited depth but as wide as the stand will stop the surging effect of old but allow the standing fans to re-capture the close packed atmospheric terrace feeling of past days without the danger of the surging crowd.

[Mac]

Manure fans have been getting away with it for years, double standards methinks.

 

ATB

 

Mac

[Zed]

Im all for it as it will help in halting the disappearing atmosphere at the modern football ground

 

Limited safe standing in one particular stand would be great

 

Sorry but the world doesnt revolve around Hillsborough, and the argument doesnt hold water. there are many many many other safety proceedures brought in after the disaster, the world keeps turning and society as a whole needs to be catered for

[Bill]

I read somewhere that the all seater stadia is a EUFA rule, and when playing in a Eufa comp the seats have to be there, but can be removed for league games as is done in a lot of the foreign stadiums.

[Louis]

Should standing terraces be reintroduced?

 

Please give reasons for and against in this topic from now on.

[aaron]

im for it! i'd rather stand during a match and sit down at half time, i love to stand but always get told to sit by the stewards.

[L_Blue]

I can see a case for standing but I am naturally lazy and don't really want to pay £30+ to stand up for 90 minutes maybe if standing offered lower prices it would be a good idea but I doubt the supporter would see any cheaper tickets. If there was a standing section it might also mean that some of the people who insist on standing for 50% of the match would go there instead of in the seating sections. Even though I have voted against it I can see how it would have benefits but as I said I doubt you would see any lower prices and people who can't get in the standing area would probably continue to stand up in the seating area so I can't see it solving anything. I don't have any problem with people standing up at corners etc but it is annoying for example if some bloody 6ft guy is standing up and you can't really stand up because it is really harsh on the 4ft kid who is sat behind you. Also nice new logo Louis ooooo

[R2D2]

All for it if the big wigs will reduce the price though.

 

If we could have even a part of the ground standing up I would go every time. Yes I missed a lot of goals cos sum big fcuker was in front of me but so what, that's what made it what it was and that's why there was so much banter and singing.

 

When you're at the match you tend to analyse the game cos your sat down, it's only the odd game (midweek v Manc Scum for example) that you really get the atmosphere.

 

YES to standing.

[Pat]

I was 100% anti this.

 

However, the suggestion forwarded by " Cheef Keef ", does seem considered & I have no problems with it @ all.

 

Conversely, I still have that nagging Bigger picture conspiracy theory & wonder if the recent speech to commons By " Cheef Keef " is as much a grab for further funding? ( Govt bacekd trial etc) as it is a plan to apease supporters & show inovation?

[Louis]

I don't know about government funding etc. interesting thought. I've been in a very anti kirkby mood today and I saw it as a "when we move we can stand - support the move" campaign.

[sheedysheedysheedy]

Sorry but the world doesnt revolve around Hillsborough, and the argument doesnt hold water. there are many many many other safety proceedures brought in after the disaster,

 

Agreed, I thought the main problem with Hillsborough was letting too many fans in and them having nowhere to go (because of the high fences and overzealous policing). I don't think allowing terraces is such a danger.

 

Personally, if you'd have asked me ten years ago I'd been all for it, but kinda used to my comfy seat now!

[GoldfishMemory]

Agreed, I thought the main problem with Hillsborough was letting too many fans in and them having nowhere to go (because of the high fences and overzealous policing). I don't think allowing terraces is such a danger.

 

Personally, if you'd have asked me ten years ago I'd been all for it, but kinda used to my comfy seat now!

 

 

You sit with Bill and his lot then cos my seat aint comfy!!

[sheedysheedysheedy]

You sit with Bill and his lot then cos my seat aint comfy!!

 

Not exactly, (Park End) but more comfy than standing. Saying that, tried the Main Stand a few years back for a cup game and to be honest would prefer standing than those wooden seats!

[Louis]

It turns out I had a slight misunderstanding by how the standing area works..

 

 

For league games the seats are locked up vertically and can not be used.

 

For UEFA Cup games they are locked down horizontally and can be used only for standing.

[Louis]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/6458843.stm

 

Campaigners for the return of standing areas at British football grounds say the Bundesliga provides evidence that it can be done safely.

 

Stadia in England's top two divisions have had to be all-seater ever since the Hillsborough disaster in 1989.

 

But the German FA resisted pressure to follow suit and at least 10% of tickets at Bundesliga games must be standing.

 

German stadium expert Professor Gunter Pilz said: "We have never had safety problems with standing in Germany."

 

Fans groups the Football Supporters' Federation (FSF) and Stand Up Sit Down (SUSD) are leading a campaign to re-open the case for standing sections in England's top two divisions. And they both point to Germany as an example of how this can be done without jeopardising safety.

 

So far their efforts have been ignored by the Department of Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) and the Football Licensing Authority (FLA), the body created to implement the Taylor Report's post-Hillsborough recommendations.

 

But with surveys suggesting English fans are in favour of a return to limited standing areas, cross-party support for a parliamentary debate on the subject and positive noises from a number of clubs, the pro-standing lobby appears to be gaining ground.

 

A recent FSF mission to Germany found that many fans - young and old, male and female - choose to stand in designated areas, generating passionate support at a fraction of the price English fans are asked to pay for their seats.

 

For example, Saturday sees first play third in the Bundesliga when Schalke 04 host Stuttgart at their state-of-the-art VELTINS-Arena in Gelsenkirchen.

 

The stadium, which hosted games in last summer's World Cup, has a capacity of 61,000 with over 16,000 standing places. Adult standing tickets are nine euros, with children getting in for six euros - this means a parent could take a child for about £10, with travel to and from the ground included.

 

The VELTINS-Arena has staggered barriers on every fourth step of its standing section. These can be easily removed and replaced with seating for international and European club games that operate under all-seater rules.

 

When asked about the ground's accident record, safety officer Volker Fuerderer said: "In the nearly six years of the VELTINS-Arena, there has not been a single incident or injury that was caused by having standing terraces."

 

When the FSF asked Borussia Dortmund for injury statistics for its 25,000-capacity standing section, Europe's largest, it was told the club do not keep statistics for injuries inside the ground as they were not an issue.

 

Pilz, from the Institute of Sports Science at Hannover University, told BBC Sport: "Standing is part of German football culture and there is no evidence at all that it is more dangerous than sitting.

 

"You can't sing and make a good atmosphere when you are sitting. And German fans like to be able to move around during a game. Sometimes fans move around more during the game than some of the players."

 

Pilz has debated the issue of safe standing sections with Sepp Blatter, the boss of world football's governing body Fifa.

 

"When I spoke to Blatter about the all-seater rule he said it was a question of security," said Pilz.

 

"But during the World Cup you had people standing on their seats to get a better view - that is far more dangerous because in panic situations you could get a domino effect.

 

"He then asked me if I knew of any opera venues that had standing areas. I told him that he can't be very well-educated as every opera venue in Germany has cheap, standing places.

 

"He wants football spectators to be like people at the opera or theatre, all sitting down. I told him when that happens football will be dead because it will have no atmosphere and no interest."

 

Concerns about ticket prices and a perceived lack of atmosphere at many English grounds have bolstered the case among fans for a return to standing areas in the top two divisions, as have the inconsistencies in the DCMS/FLA legislation.

 

Both the FSF and SUSD have repeatedly asked the authorities why standing is allowed at other sports, football below the Championship and even music concerts at all-seater football stadia.

 

The issue of many fans simply ignoring the rules and standing up anyway, often upsetting supporters that want to sit and causing friction with stewards attempting to police the situation, has also been raised.

 

Answers to these questions have not been forthcoming but a DCMS spokesperson told BBC Sport that any move to bring back standing areas would be a "retrograde step" and that no new evidence existed to suggest otherwise.

 

The DCMS has also been silent on the fact that only 9% of fans at Premier League games are under 24 and the average age of the crowd has crept up to 43.

 

The FLA's chief executive John de Quidt, however, said the German example was not "suitable" for English football.

 

He told BBC Sport he had been to Hamburg's AOL Arena to look at their solution - terrace steps that rotate through 180 degrees to enable both standing and seating options.

 

"There is no way that could work in England. (The Hamburg stand) was built on a huge site and on solid ground with no concourses underneath," said de Quidt.

 

"That kind of structure would not have fitted in any existing ground in England. It requires too much land and is too expensive.

 

Borussia Dortmund's away end

The seats at Dortmund are wheeled out for European nights

"The German approach has to be seen in the context of giving cheap access to football matches. But English fans have paid an extra price for a high quality product. It is funny how we always hear about Germany. What about France or Italy?"

 

Pilz, however, disagreed with de Quidt's claim that the German model was necessarily more expensive or required more land.

 

"Look at Bochum or Wolfsburg. They are small grounds. So that is not true," said Pilz.

 

The AOL Arena is also at the more hi-tech end of the spectrum. At Werder Bremen's Weserstadion, seats are connected to barriers that run along the length of every second step in the standing section. They are flipped up and locked for domestic games, and flipped down and unlocked for European and international games, with a 50% reduction in capacity.

 

The German FA, in fact, is so convinced of the safety of standing sections, and the benefits they bring in terms of atmosphere and social inclusion, it has asked Fifa for permission to allow standing at international games. So far that permission has not been granted.

 

Pilz said: "As we saw during the World Cup, the current laws are ridiculous and suit only the VIPs. But nothing will change until other national associations join Germany in asking for standing areas."

[Bill]

It turns out I had a slight misunderstanding by how the standing area works..

 

 

For league games the seats are locked up vertically and can not be used.

 

For UEFA Cup games they are locked down horizontally and can be used only for standing.

........

 

Another misunderstanding ? or another typo, dont you mean seating.

[Louis]

I do. forgive me.

[wellafella]

I personally prefer to sit now, its nice to get a cup of tea and look through your programme in your seat before kick off (especially if I'm hungover which is most saturdays) plus you have got a great view of the game unlike when we used to stand and you were constantly battling for a good speck all game (It did'nt help being 5ft 7in either).

I do agree that standing areas would make for a better atmosphere if they could be done safely, anyone who prefers to stand are welcome to it. I don't think if they re-introduced standing area's they would be anything like the old gwladys street or away derby games in the old kop were you were packed in like sardines .

The thought of getting my trainee's and jeans covered in shite and being soaked with sweat after every home game does'nt sit well with me anymore, also turning around at half time to find a half pissed old fella pissing into a rolled up echo, no thanks :sad01_anim:.

There's talk of having standing area's with a seat behinde you and a bar to lean on, whats the point in that ? we stand up most games now and the only difference is that there's no bar to lean on ! so that idea is rubbish !

Give me my seat any day.

[Bill]

Ahhh so its standing but with seats incase you wanna park your arse.

 

I dont think theres any point in bringing in that style of terrace at all its just like a normal seated stand with the added cost of putting in all the metal bars. Football fans wont get the atmosphere they crave with metal railings between each row of people and there will be moaning from now to eternity that clubs have spent so much money and not actually captured what the fans want by re-introducing terraces!

 

What they should do if they are seriously going to bring them back is section off rows at the back of the stand over the full lengh. That way the people who want this most will be located in a position they already hold in football grounds where they can create a wall of sound that rolls down and lifts the fans into song. Making this section of limited depth but as wide as the stand will stop the surging effect of old but allow the standing fans to re-capture the close packed atmospheric terrace feeling of past days without the danger of the surging crowd.

 

....

 

The steps are deep enough to accomodate a seat and room to walk along to your seat, so when the seat is safely locked away, three people can stand in an area of one seat, the bars also stop any Domino affect of people surging forward from the back and causing any crushing injuries to people at the front.

A seating area designed this way for 5.000 seating, can accommodate 10.000 people standing comfortably, and 15,000 people at a maximum full house non eufa fixture.

 

The Initial expense is recuperated by doubling the income they recieved for the area, by standing at league matches.

 

Well worth considering imo.

[wellafella]

....

 

The steps are deep enough to accomodate a seat and room to walk along to your seat, so when the seat is safely locked away, three people can stand in an area of one seat, the bars also stop any Domino affect of people surging forward from the back and causing any crushing injuries to people at the front.

A seating area designed this way for 5.000 seating, can accommodate 10.000 people standing comfortably, and 15,000 people at a maximum full house non eufa fixture.

 

Well worth considering imo.

I'm not against the idea if its done safly but i'd prefer to sit now.I would'nt mind them trying it with the parkend !

[TrueBlue]

I'm another who said yes to standing.

 

Never been to a standing game at Everton although the old games looks like the ground was rocking. Obviously its not gonna be the same but I think it'd be interesting to see if it improves the atmosphere of games.

[sheedysheedysheedy]

I'm not against the idea if its done safly but i'd prefer to sit now.I would'nt mind them trying it with the parkend !

Hey! leave the Park End alone!! Try it in the Bullens!