Duffy And Baxter

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Couldnt agree more... People are quick to jump on the Moyes brings in the youth but apart from Rodwell (who probably wouldnt be playing as much as he is if it werent for him doing well at the start of last season when everyone was injured) no-one else has reall be given a proper go in the real first team. It took Seamus over half a season to get a go and Gueye hasnt even had a whiff. Im gutted for Duffy, it cant be much longer til he is given a real go.

 

Surely if neither Jags or Heits are fit for Stoke he wont contemplate starting Hibbert against Jones and Duffy should get the nod. Will be a tough physical game for him to be introduced into but from what I have seen of him, im sure he will love it!

 

 

So I take it Osman, Hibbert, Rooney, Big Vic, Gosling, Fellaini, Coleman and Vaughan all played for the only messing first team then?

Edited December 30, 2010 by duncanmckenzieismagic

[Hafnia]

Think you are missing the point as usual, they are referring to the fact that moyes played a 5 ft 8 right back, unproven at centre half against a team who could at any stage field Carlton cole all 6 ft 4 of him.

 

Would a certain 6ft 4in Duffy had done better? Well could he have done worse?

 

The point being made that even when Duffy was a no brainer, he opted for a dodgy "safe" option.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Think you are missing the point as usual, they are referring to the fact that moyes played a 5 ft 8 right back, unproven at centre half against a team who could at any stage field Carlton cole all 6 ft 4 of him.

 

Would a certain 6ft 4in Duffy had done better? Well could he have done worse?

 

The point being made that even when Duffy was a no brainer, he opted for a dodgy "safe" option.

 

People are quick to jump on the Moyes brings in the youth but apart from Rodwell (who probably wouldnt be playing as much as he is if it werent for him doing well at the start of last season when everyone was injured) no-one else has reall be given a proper go in the real first team

 

 

Above is the comment I was referring to and its pretty clear he was claiming that Moyes doesnt give youth a chance. The bit that gave it away was "APART FROM RODWELL NO_ONE ELSE HAS REALLY BEEN GIVEN A GO IN THE REAL FIRST TEAM"

 

So actually I dont think I have missed the point

[Hafnia]

I know what you were referring to which is why I said you were missing the point as that was only part of the post,

 

If Duffy is not going to get a start ahead of Tony hibbert as the only centre half choice then he really isn't going to get a chance is he?

 

Moyes has got a reputation as giving youth a chance -

 

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/David-Moyes-owes-Everton-s-success-to-his-brilliant-youth-system-article32538.html

 

Here it's stated that gosling got a start over other experienced players etc, the point is that didn't happen the other night did it, which doesn't fit in with his give youth a chance reputation. Which I can't argue with.

 

To make a post on one comment is pedantic, when it misses the point that was clearly made in the rest of the post.

Edited December 31, 2010 by Hafnia2

[Jimmy the blue]

I know what you were referring to which is why I said you were missing the point as that was only part of the post,

 

If Duffy is not going to get a start ahead of Tony hibbert as the only centre half choice then he really isn't going to get a chance is he?

 

Moyes has got a reputation as giving youth a chance -

 

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/David-Moyes-owes-Everton-s-success-to-his-brilliant-youth-system-article32538.html

 

Here it's stated that gosling got a start over other experienced players etc, the point is that didn't happen the other night did it, which doesn't fit in with his give youth a chance reputation. Which I can't argue with.

 

To make a post on one comment is pedantic, when it misses the point that was clearly made in the rest of the post.

 

I'd like to point out that Gosling got his chance because we had absolutely no one else available due to injuries at that time. I'd still like to find out the truth behind him not signing, at least he has yet to kick a ball for the Geordies and to be honest he wasn't that good anyway

[Hafnia]

http://www.nsno.co.uk/everton-news/2010/12/hibbert-to-deputise-once-more/?

 

Seems he thinks hibbert had a good game the other night.

 

Happy to play a 5ft 8 full back as a centre half against probably the tallest team in the prem..........

[Romey 1878]

http://www.nsno.co.uk/everton-news/2010/12/hibbert-to-deputise-once-more/?

 

Seems he thinks hibbert had a good game the other night.

 

Happy to play a 5ft 8 full back as a centre half against probably the tallest team in the prem..........

 

 

I just posted this in the Stoke thread, oops.

[Hafnia]

I just posted this in the Stoke thread, oops.

 

It's newsworthy for both I think.

 

I can only hope this is a ploy by moyes.

[Bailey]

So I take it Osman, Hibbert, Rooney, Big Vic, Gosling, Fellaini, Coleman and Vaughan all played for the only messing first team then?

 

 

Admittedly I dont know much about the introduction of the first two, Rooney was held back a lot and then played out of position for chunks although he is the best example. Vic has only come in because of injuries, or in uncompetitive games, same with Gosling, Coleman (until recently & that was very reluctantly!) and Vaughan falls somewhat under the Vic category. Felli was playing CL footy and signed for 15mil so that isnt really the same situation. Plus some of these were in their 20's before they got proper game time which might be young to you but not so much in the footballing world. Look at the good kids in other teams. Theya re getting games in their teens and if they do well they are stuck with. At Everton even if you do well you will be out next game if a regular is fit.

 

They never really got a proper chances and when you look at the amount of decent youngsters we have/had thats a small percentage that have had real 1st team game time because he thought they were good enough and not because he couldnt play a 1st teamer out of position and its over the course of 9 years!

 

The way I see it, if you do have a decent youngster which we clearly do in Duffy (and by the sounds of it Mustafi) when the other 1st team CB's are unfit then he should be called up and played. Playing unfit players out of position worked unbelievably badly for us last season, yet at the first sign of trouble Moyes reverts straight back to it.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Admittedly I dont know much about the introduction of the first two, Rooney was held back a lot and then played out of position for chunks although he is the best example. Vic has only come in because of injuries, or in uncompetitive games, same with Gosling, Coleman (until recently & that was very reluctantly!) and Vaughan falls somewhat under the Vic category. Felli was playing CL footy and signed for 15mil so that isnt really the same situation. Plus some of these were in their 20's before they got proper game time which might be young to you but not so much in the footballing world. Look at the good kids in other teams. Theya re getting games in their teens and if they do well they are stuck with. At Everton even if you do well you will be out next game if a regular is fit.

 

They never really got a proper chances and when you look at the amount of decent youngsters we have/had thats a small percentage that have had real 1st team game time because he thought they were good enough and not because he couldnt play a 1st teamer out of position and its over the course of 9 years!

 

The way I see it, if you do have a decent youngster which we clearly do in Duffy (and by the sounds of it Mustafi) when the other 1st team CB's are unfit then he should be called up and played. Playing unfit players out of position worked unbelievably badly for us last season, yet at the first sign of trouble Moyes reverts straight back to it.

 

 

 

As I said earlier I am not really in a position to comment on Duffy because I have only ever seen him play one game so I have no idea wether or not he is good enough to step up yet.

A lot of people in here seem to watch a lot of reserve team football and so they are better placed to comment on his merits but I do think that to say Moyse never gives youth a chance is well wide of the mark

 

It always makes me laugh when people have a pop at how Moyse treated Rooney. Moyseie rests him and brings him on gradually and on occasion played him on the left of midfield and he is deemed a fool and its claimed he has held him back. Then suddenly Alex Ferguson does exactly the same thing and is called a tactical genius and the best manager in the world for nurturing youg talent.

 

As far as other teams selections go again I dont really pay too much attention to thier team selections so again I cant really comment. I can only really think of Jack Wiltshire who is playing regular first team football in his teens and I noticed Villa have got a few young lads in thier side but they are having an even worse season than us but other than that Im stuggling to think of any.

[Hafnia]

For me a mixture of youth and experience can never go wrong, distin would walk Duffy through the game. It has been said Duffy is one of the best in the air at the club, no mean feat when you consider distin, Felli and tim are his peers...

[Bailey]

As I said earlier I am not really in a position to comment on Duffy because I have only ever seen him play one game so I have no idea wether or not he is good enough to step up yet.

A lot of people in here seem to watch a lot of reserve team football and so they are better placed to comment on his merits but I do think that to say Moyse never gives youth a chance is well wide of the mark

 

It always makes me laugh when people have a pop at how Moyse treated Rooney. Moyseie rests him and brings him on gradually and on occasion played him on the left of midfield and he is deemed a fool and its claimed he has held him back. Then suddenly Alex Ferguson does exactly the same thing and is called a tactical genius and the best manager in the world for nurturing youg talent.

 

As far as other teams selections go again I dont really pay too much attention to thier team selections so again I cant really comment. I can only really think of Jack Wiltshire who is playing regular first team football in his teens and I noticed Villa have got a few young lads in thier side but they are having an even worse season than us but other than that Im stuggling to think of any.

 

Put it this way I have seen more from Duffy in the two games at centre half than I have from Hibbert. Duffy is never going to learn how to play premier league football from the bench.

 

I dont mean to suggest Moyes never gives youth a chance but most of the times in recent history he either waits for a dead rubber or massive injury crisis before playing them. I think its stupid to play someone out of position, just to not play a youngster who needs game time to develop.

 

I must admit I was being harsh with regards to the Rooney treatment. I dont necessarily think he was entirely wrong, but I dont really see how playing him on the wing was benefitting him. I thought the same when Fergie used to do it and if he was up against someone with class he was found out and nullified. In terms of playing time though I think he was probably correct, in the same way he has been with Rodwell.

 

Well Arsenal always chuck in kids for prem games if there is an injury, Villa are restructuring and whilst I think there are too many at once in the long term it might help them. Blackburn have a couple of young lads playing for them, united have chucked players in and even Chelsea are now looking towards and playing their youth.

 

Im not saying its right to throw loads in at once, but when you have opportunities like this to try someone out because of injuries then give them a go. Duffy, Baxter, Mustafi, Gueye, Vaughan etc etc need to play 1st team premiership football to improve, bench warming will do nothing. Im not saying always a full 90mins, im not saying every game and im not saying all at once but if you dont give them a chance how are they going to show you in the top flight whether they are good enough. Especially when the out of position player is dodgy in the first place.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Put it this way I have seen more from Duffy in the two games at centre half than I have from Hibbert. Duffy is never going to learn how to play premier league football from the bench.

 

I dont mean to suggest Moyes never gives youth a chance but most of the times in recent history he either waits for a dead rubber or massive injury crisis before playing them. I think its stupid to play someone out of position, just to not play a youngster who needs game time to develop.

 

I must admit I was being harsh with regards to the Rooney treatment. I dont necessarily think he was entirely wrong, but I dont really see how playing him on the wing was benefitting him. I thought the same when Fergie used to do it and if he was up against someone with class he was found out and nullified. In terms of playing time though I think he was probably correct, in the same way he has been with Rodwell.

 

Well Arsenal always chuck in kids for prem games if there is an injury, Villa are restructuring and whilst I think there are too many at once in the long term it might help them. Blackburn have a couple of young lads playing for them, united have chucked players in and even Chelsea are now looking towards and playing their youth.

 

Im not saying its right to throw loads in at once, but when you have opportunities like this to try someone out because of injuries then give them a go. Duffy, Baxter, Mustafi, Gueye, Vaughan etc etc need to play 1st team premiership football to improve, bench warming will do nothing. Im not saying always a full 90mins, im not saying every game and im not saying all at once but if you dont give them a chance how are they going to show you in the top flight whether they are good enough. Especially when the out of position player is dodgy in the first place.

 

I can understand why people are clamouring for Duffy to be given a go and I have to admit the thought of Hibbo playing centre half today scares the shit out of me. But I just think that Moyes sees him every day in training and I would rate his opinion above any internet warrior any day of the week.

 

Its like everyone shouting for Gueye to be included, have they actually seen him play?

 

I watched him in the cup game against Huddersfield where he played well for 10 minutes and put in a belter of a cross for Felli's goal but then he dissapeared up his own arse and was woeful for the rest of the game. He was pretty much the same in all the preseason games.

 

Yet all of a sudden a few blokes with keyboards think they know better

[Kohen]

Its like everyone shouting for Gueye to be included, have they actually seen him play?

 

I watched him in the cup game against Huddersfield where he played well for 10 minutes and put in a belter of a cross for Felli's goal but then he dissapeared up his own arse and was woeful for the rest of the game. He was pretty much the same in all the preseason games.

 

 

You just attempting to play devil's advocate?

 

Gueye looked a lot better than you're giving him credit for, pace, skill, good crossing ability and his goal he scored against Brisbane was a great example of being in the right place at the right time, not due to luck, but skill.

 

I'm not saying I know better than Moyes in regards to players ability, because like you said he sees them every day, I just think you're writing Gueye off too readily!

[Hafnia]

I think moyes is becoming a victim of his own negativity. Deserved or not, his favouritism of certain players is causing fans to question him.

[Jimmy the blue]

I can understand why people are clamouring for Duffy to be given a go and I have to admit the thought of Hibbo playing centre half today scares the shit out of me. But I just think that Moyes sees him every day in training and I would rate his opinion above any internet warrior any day of the week.

 

Its like everyone shouting for Gueye to be included, have they actually seen him play?

 

I watched him in the cup game against Huddersfield where he played well for 10 minutes and put in a belter of a cross for Felli's goal but then he dissapeared up his own arse and was woeful for the rest of the game. He was pretty much the same in all the preseason games.

 

Yet all of a sudden a few blokes with keyboards think they know better

 

 

Dunc's. I hope you are not implying that I'm a 'internet warrior' because my view doesn't correspond with yours. Alas i've had well in excess 50 years watching and supporting the Blues. health prevents me from attending matches these days but it will not stop me from having an opinion.

 

The biggest flaw in your argument is the fact that Moyes puts people on the bench and then ignores them. Using Gueye as an example I to have received mixed reviews on this lad, most confirm that he has a wondrous left foot when he cares to use it. Now put yourself in his position, week after week sitting there doing nothing and the players on the pitch are out there doing even less. What sort of managerial message does that send when he won't give the kid five minutes on the park. Moyes decision not to trust duffy is far more to do with his annual desire to reach 40 points than any positive football decision, he is crapping himself that we can't pull clear as he doesn't trust anyone who has not been tried. In my book its like the skipper of the Titanic forbiding people to use any untried life boats, it is a recipe for disaster, total folly especially if Hibbo gets shoved in the middle again today

Edited January 1, 2011 by Jimmy the blue

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

You just attempting to play devil's advocate?

 

Gueye looked a lot better than you're giving him credit for, pace, skill, good crossing ability and his goal he scored against Brisbane was a great example of being in the right place at the right time, not due to luck, but skill.

 

I'm not saying I know better than Moyes in regards to players ability, because like you said he sees them every day, I just think you're writing Gueye off too readily!

 

 

Sorry I forgot about his 2 yard pile driver into the bottom left hand corner

 

Im not writing him off at all, as I said I dont watch the reserves so Im not in any position to criticise the lad all Im trying to say is that I trust Moyses opinion over any internet footie manager

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Dunc's. I hope you are not implying that I'm a 'internet warrior' because my view doesn't correspond with yours. Alas i've had well in excess 50 years watching and supporting the Blues. health prevents me from attending matches these days but it will not stop me from having an opinion.

 

The biggest flaw in your argument is the fact that Moyes puts people on the bench and then ignores them. Using Gueye as an example I to have received mixed reviews on this lad, most confirm that he has a wondrous left foot when he cares to use it. Now put yourself in his position, week after week sitting there doing nothing and the players on the pitch are out there doing even less. What sort of managerial message does that send when he won't give the kid five minutes on the park. Moyes decision not to trust duffy is far more to do with his annual desire to reach 40 points than any positive football decision, he is crapping himself that we can't pull clear as he doesn't trust anyone who has not been tried. In my book its like the skipper of the Titanic forbiding people to use any untried life boats, it is a recipe for disaster, total folly especially if Hibbo gets shoved in the middle again today

 

 

Not at all

 

 

Can I just use your example as a way to try and get my point accross. You say that you have "heard" Gueye has a wondorous left foot. Who did you hear this from? Did they also tell you that he never did anything in the game after his wondorous left foot cross for felli's goal?

 

I have just got back from the Stoke game and Im not got going to bother watching MOTD because they will manipulate the highlights to make it look like we got battered.

 

If you cant get to the game it doesnt make you any less of a supporter but I do firmly believe it makes you less informed

 

As I have said before I dont watch the reserves so I dont know enough about Gueye to say wether or not the lad deserves a start but judging from the Huddersfield game he is a million miles away

[Hafnia]

Not at all

 

 

Can I just use your example as a way to try and get my point accross. You say that you have "heard" Gueye has a wondorous left foot. Who did you hear this from? Did they also tell you that he never did anything in the game after his wondorous left foot cross for felli's goal?

 

I have just got back from the Stoke game and Im not got going to bother watching MOTD because they will manipulate the highlights to make it look like we got battered.

 

If you cant get to the game it doesnt make you any less of a supporter but I do firmly believe it makes you less informed

 

As I have said before I dont watch the reserves so I dont know enough about Gueye to say wether or not the lad deserves a start but judging from the Huddersfield game he is a million miles away

 

I actually think you are moyes. Especially now that you have said you don't watch the reserves and you are on the way back from Stoke, add to that you defended hibbert at centre half, and Cahill as lone striker. How is the bus? Did you stop for ice cream?

[Bailey]

You just attempting to play devil's advocate?

 

Gueye looked a lot better than you're giving him credit for, pace, skill, good crossing ability and his goal he scored against Brisbane was a great example of being in the right place at the right time, not due to luck, but skill.

 

I'm not saying I know better than Moyes in regards to players ability, because like you said he sees them every day, I just think you're writing Gueye off too readily!

 

 

Dunc's. I hope you are not implying that I'm a 'internet warrior' because my view doesn't correspond with yours. Alas i've had well in excess 50 years watching and supporting the Blues. health prevents me from attending matches these days but it will not stop me from having an opinion.

 

The biggest flaw in your argument is the fact that Moyes puts people on the bench and then ignores them. Using Gueye as an example I to have received mixed reviews on this lad, most confirm that he has a wondrous left foot when he cares to use it. Now put yourself in his position, week after week sitting there doing nothing and the players on the pitch are out there doing even less. What sort of managerial message does that send when he won't give the kid five minutes on the park. Moyes decision not to trust duffy is far more to do with his annual desire to reach 40 points than any positive football decision, he is crapping himself that we can't pull clear as he doesn't trust anyone who has not been tried. In my book its like the skipper of the Titanic forbiding people to use any untried life boats, it is a recipe for disaster, total folly especially if Hibbo gets shoved in the middle again today

 

I agree with these. I too admit I havent seen too much for him but the simple fact he has played one game in an poor team performance and actually set up a goal makes me think the guy deserves a go as the rest of the 1st eleven arent doing this!

 

I dont know if you do read many of the reserve match reviews but in a lot of them it is either him or Baxter doing well and creating the goals. Im not saying we have to start him every game but if we are struggling to score and want to introduce a new problem for the defence why not give him 30mins? I rate Osman but why bring him on to play on to change a game when he has similar qualities to the guy he replaces? It really bugs me tbh and it must be damaging the confidence of the players in question.

[Jimmy the blue]

Not at all

 

 

Can I just use your example as a way to try and get my point accross. You say that you have "heard" Gueye has a wondorous left foot. Who did you hear this from? Did they also tell you that he never did anything in the game after his wondorous left foot cross for felli's goal?

 

I have just got back from the Stoke game and Im not got going to bother watching MOTD because they will manipulate the highlights to make it look like we got battered.

 

If you cant get to the game it doesnt make you any less of a supporter but I do firmly believe it makes you less informed

 

As I have said before I dont watch the reserves so I dont know enough about Gueye to say wether or not the lad deserves a start but judging from the Huddersfield game he is a million miles away

 

 

I'm sorry to sink your boat Duncs mate but when I say I've heard that doesn't mean I've read reports, read the EFC website but rather I've heard from people who have seen and whose opinion I trust. You again fail to accept that I'm not even saying these kids deserve to be in from the start of a game but surely they should be blooded from the bench rather than using their arses to keep their seats warm for 90 mins.

[Kohen]

Sorry I forgot about his 2 yard pile driver into the bottom left hand corner

 

Im not writing him off at all, as I said I dont watch the reserves so Im not in any position to criticise the lad all Im trying to say is that I trust Moyses opinion over any internet footie manager

 

Did I write "The wonder goal he scored from 30 yards out" ?

 

If you're gonna get sarcastic on me, at least do me the decency of reading what I wrote- I didn't praise his clinical finishing, I praised his positioning.

 

 

Fact of the matter is: He can't do any worse than our current superstars are doing..

Edited January 4, 2011 by Kohen

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11671_6833160,00.html

 

 

Shane Duffy off to Burnley on loan , could be a good move for the lad

[markduff]

http://www.skysports...6833160,00.html

 

 

Shane Duffy off to Burnley on loan , could be a good move for the lad

 

 

hope he come home from portugal fit and well, were he is on duty with the rep of ire under 21s at the min, and hopefully gets a few good game under his belt with burnley!

[Romey 1878]

Howe says he wants him back next season if this loan goes well. You never know, he might do enough next season to earn a permanent move.

[Kohen]

I can't help but feel we're stretching our squad a little with injuries/loans!