To the future

[Peter H]

.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Peter H

[Guest John Burns]

Liverpool City Council has stated, in the minutes of the Regeneration and Transport Select Committee meeting of 31 March 2011, that it is willing to formally discuss re-activation of the Liverpool Outer Loop Line with interested parties. If Interested, contact Councillor Malcolm Kennedy, Cabinet Member for Regeneration and Transport.
malcolm.kennedy@liverpool.gov.uk

All bodies need to be alerted to get Merseyrail extended where it makes maximum impact. The Council took up his idea to have Liverpool FC and Everton FC on a reopened Outer Loop Line. The Council were looking for a site for Everton FC and have identified a number on the line. Members of the Council are hoping to get Liverpool FC on the same Outer Loop line as Everton FC. The adjacent to Stanley Park Bootle Branch Line (Canada Dock Branch Line), Merseytravel want to run passengers on is less suitable. It serves far less connection and serves far less direct destinations than the mothballed Outer Loop Line.

From the minutes of the Regeneration and Transport Select Committee meeting of 31 March 2011,

Item 51 question "Merseytravel":

Question - Merseytravel

“The city districts and city suburbs of the City of Liverpool are underprovided for by Merseyrail compared to other Merseyside areas. For example, Birkenhead is as close or closer to Liverpool city centre as/than Toxteth, Wavertree, Old Swan, West Derby, Knotty Ash, Tuebrook, Stoneycroft, Norris Green, Anfield and Everton etc.. Birkenhead has many Merseyrail stations whereas the aforementioned Liverpool city districts have none.

Will Liverpool City Council undertake to work towards re-balancing this discrepancy by endeavouring to facilitate the following:

In the short to medium term

• re-activation of the existing Liverpool Loop Line from Hunts Cross on the Northern Line to Rice Lane on the Kirkby Line;
• consideration of the opening of stations on the Liverpool Loop Line at Alder Hey Hospital, Liverpool Football Club and Everton Football Club as priorities, as economic enablers of the project; and
• creation of a junction on the Liverpool Loop Line at Broad Green to allow additional access, using existing active railways, to Liverpool city centre through Wavertree Technology Park and central inner Liverpool suburbs. This would also create two city loops, increasing flexibility of services; and
• Production of a long term strategy to provide many more Liverpool city districts and citizens with the enormous benefits of quality commuter/Metro rail services which are part of and integrated into the existing extensive Merseyrail network.”

Response (from Merseytravel)

It is Merseytravel rather than the City Council who controls the provision of rail services across Merseyside. Merseytravel have provided the following response to the Question:

Merseytravel fully supports the development of the local transport network and works, in conjunction with partners and stakeholders, to deliver the appropriate transport solution to the problems encountered. This has led to the development of a high quality transport network which includes both bus and rail transport.

The legacy of the rail network provides many challenges and it is difficult to make changes to the network Merseytravel has inherited. However Merseytravel refutes the idea that Wirral has a better rail network and while we accept that there are parts of Liverpool without direct rail access this is also the case with large parts of the Wirral, St Helens and Knowsley.

Merseytravel is committed to developing the public transport network across the whole of Merseyside, providing the appropriate transport intervention where required. The Local Transport Plan Bus and Rail Strategies set out Merseytravel aspirations to develop the public transport network.

The Rail Strategy sets out a number of improvements for the Liverpool area including opening the Bootle branch for passenger rail services and a series of new railway stations. While Merseytravel would like to take forward these proposals the current funding position makes this extremely difficult. The potential to develop the outer loop line has been lost as part of the line has been built on and thus is not identified within the Rail Strategy.

On a positive note the lines between Liverpool and Manchester and Liverpool and Wigan have been identified for electrification in the near future by the Government.

Merseytravel were pulling the wool over the Council's eyes. They state, "The potential to develop the outer loop line has been lost as part of the line has been built on". The Outer Loop line trackbed only has the Sainbury's Knotty Ash store rear access road on a very short section of the trackbed. This is no show stopper. The line or road can even be realigned at that point or alternative rear store access found. This line is being suggested to run the High Speed Rail train into a reopened Liverpool Exchange station. Sainbury's would be eager to have a rapid-transit station in their car park and may fully cooperate and pay for most of it, if not all. A quick Google Earth brings up the store. With modern signalling controlling train traffic, the track could even be single at the store and not impeded fast services.

Most of the Outer Loop Line is built - the most expensive parts. The Western and southern sections of the Outer Loop Line are in operation and in use called the Northern Line.
Below: The whole loop line. The red is the mothballed eastern section, the green and pink dots are operative. Anywhere on this loop is suitable for both clubs. The eastern section offer better stadium locations.



The city has a rapid-transit rail network other cities drool over, the most used outside London, and it can be far, far larger without too much fuss or expense. Rapid-transit rail networks create economic growth and gives kudos. All major cities in the world have them. Liverpool has one and it is largely ignored by Merseytravel and its tow large football clubs.

Arsenal FC used rapid-transit to amazing success. The Arsenal stadium success is ideal to get Liverpool FC and Everton FC on the Outer Loop - common sense as it ensures success of the clubs and keeps nuisance to a minimum. The city Council realise this.

The Outer Loop line is currently safeguarded complete with long span steel bridges. At great expense the M62 under construction left an underpass for the Outer Loop Line.

The current electrification project of the Liverpool to Manchester, Wigan, Huyton and St.Helens lines meshes very well to get the Outer Loop operational and give direct access a stadium on the line. Some major costs are eliminated with this electrification. This is being electrified right now, not "identified for electrification in the near future by the Government", as Merseytravel state. Work is under way.

Liverpool City Council is right. Birkenhead is better served by Merseyrail. More than Liverpool when comparing the populations of both. People in Birkenhead (and Wallasey) use Merseyrail as a metro jumping from district to district and right into Liverpool city centre's main points directly. People just outside Liverpool's city centre do not have that luxury.

Liverpool City Council were not impressed with Merseytravel's response. The Council was not taken in by Merseytravel. There are no significant obstructions on the Liverpool Outer Loop Line between Hunts Cross station on the Northern Line and Rice Lane station on the Kirkby Line. A quick look at Google Maps confirms this. It is possible to walk or cycle the route but beware of broken glass, muggings and fly tipping.

Liverpool City Council has stated, in the minutes of the Regeneration and Transport Select Committee meeting of 31 March 2011, that it is willing to formally discuss re-activation of the Liverpool Outer Loop Line with interested parties (EFC & LFC and possibly Sainbury's).

Edited May 21, 2013 by John Burns

[FairWooney]

John,

 

you've put up a well written case, very well written in fact (do you run a train line engineering company?!).

 

I don't think anyone disagree's that we need a new stadium and the negative comments received generally aren't completely disagreeing with what you're saying.

 

But unless you've been living in a bunker for the last 10 years Everton have looked at serveral sites, they have looked at different ways of financing a new stadium and have spoken to the council regarding potential moves. All have so far drawn a blank.

 

That's not to say there is no way we can finance and find a suitable site for a new ground but what I would say is if you believe you have a grand plan for this then maybe you should be presenting it some people of importance at Everton.

 

As has been stated before we have loans in the region of £49million right now, we only payed off £0.9 million in the last year while paying a further £4million in interest. While Barclays are happy enough for us to have this loan as they know that we are in a position to keep paying as long as Premiership money comes in and of course we give them massive amounts of interest. Would they hand us another 50millon + in order to build a new stadium? NO THEY WOULD NOT! The reason they would not is because if things went tits up we do not have the assets to repay a further loan of such an amount. This is why we used Tesco's in the Kirkby deal and why we haven't been publicly in any major rush to find and get building a stadium.

 

I don't disagree with anything you say regarding building a new stadium and the lucractive profits' that can be made because of it and that it can take the club forward. Unfortunately it takes some creative work with a big profitable company such as Tesco's or a very generous rich loanee to take a risk on us.

[FairWooney]

oh yeah,

 

Great blog worth reading with regard to club finances: http://swissramble.blogspot.com/2013/04/show-me-money.html

 

bit of info on Everton there as well as an older blog post going into detail on us though most list full details of all Premiership clubs anyway

[Guest John Burns]

John,

 

you've put up a well written case, very well written in fact (do you run a train line engineering company?!).

I have no connection with choo-choos. I am an Evertonian. Work in Management consultancy.

 

Everton have looked at several sites but have omitted rapid-transit rail to service the stadium to maximize its appeal and success. Essential in a city with such a network - sensible people would agree on this. The Council suggested this site to EFC at Stanley near Old Swan and Newsham Park to one side. A stadium can be built over the line to get fans directly in and out of the stadium, on the Canada Dock branch line. The white rectangle at the bottom right of the picture.

 

 

Then banks would give £50 millon + in order to build a new stadium. The club present the business case. That is how the multitude of stadia were built in the UK over the past 15 years. It is not a new idea. A top Prem club has a constant stream of money which banks like.

 

It is best the posters on this forum stop at being amateur finance experts.

Edited May 21, 2013 by John Burns

[Matt]

management consultancy eh? explains a lot.

 

John, can you tell me why you refuse to answer my simple question?

[Peter H]

It is best the posters on this forum stop at being amateur finance experts.

 

Why do you end each post with an attack on the members of this forum? The most of us have been on here for years, building relationships with each other which allows for the occasional banter. You have been here for less than 5 minutes and have insulted everyone more than 20 times.

 

You might have a case here, but no-one is really listening to your ideas. This is because you have absolutely no social skills what so ever. We don't even know what you are after? Do you want us to sign a petition? Go to the bank in Everton's name and ask for the money? Apply force by writing to the club demanding a new stadium?

 

Calm down and stop treating us like children and just let us know what your mission is. Right now I just see a troll. Trolls usually get the ignore poster function activated.

[Guest John Burns]

oh yeah,

 

Great blog worth reading with regard to club finances: http://swissramble.blogspot.com/2013/04/show-me-money.html

oh yeah. Thanks. It shows that the turnover of Arsenal, Chelsea, Man C, Man U and Liverpool dwarf EFC. Even Spurs are substantially higher. Even Newcastle pull in more. This graphically shows the need for EFC to get their act together and get a high income stadium on-line. Then the stadium it can be a 100% separate company set up by EFC and EFC "rent" the stadium from his company. This protects the stadium as going concern.

[Guest John Burns]

Why do you end each post with an attack on the members of this forum?

I do not. Many are childish with obsessions on defecation. I notice you do not engage in sensible points and always take matters to a personal level, indicting you have nothing sensible or constructive to offer.

Edited May 21, 2013 by John Burns

[Matt]

 

Why do you end each post with an attack on the members of this forum? The most of us have been on here for years, building relationships with each other which allows for the occasional banter. You have been here for less than 5 minutes and have insulted everyone more than 20 times.

 

You might have a case here, but no-one is really listening to your ideas. This is because you have absolutely no social skills what so ever. We don't even know what you are after? Do you want us to sign a petition? Go to the bank in Everton's name and ask for the money? Apply force by writing to the club demanding a new stadium?

 

Calm down and stop treating us like children and just let us know what your mission is. Right now I just see a troll. Trolls usually get the ignore poster function activated.

this is all im trying to understand! well, that and why any irrefutable evidence presented is ignored or belittled...

 

 

oh yeah. Thanks. It shows that the turnover of Arsenal, Chelsea, Man C, Man U and Liverpool dwarf EFC. Even Spurs are substantially higher. Even Newcastle pull in more. This graphically shows the need for EFC to get their act together and get a high income stadium on-line. Then the stadium it can be a 100% separate company set up by EFC and EFC "rent" the stadium from his company. This protects the stadium as going concern.

 

indeed they do. How?

[Bill]

I would hate to be locked in the same room as you, you are boring everybody to death.

 

Close your mouth and give your arse a chance.

[Peter H]

I do not. Many are childish with obsessions on defecation. I notice you do not engage in sensible points and always take matters to a personal level, indicting you have nothing sensible or constructive to offer.

 

You just did it again, ended the post with an insult. (after denying it with the first 3 words)

[FairWooney]

oh yeah. Thanks. It shows that the turnover of Arsenal, Chelsea, Man C, Man U and Liverpool dwarf EFC. Even Spurs are substantially higher. Even Newcastle pull in more. This graphically shows the need for EFC to get their act together and get a high income stadium on-line. Then the stadium it can be a 100% separate company set up by EFC and EFC "rent" the stadium from his company. This protects the stadium as going concern.

 

no one, but no one disagrees that we need to get a new stadium.

 

What you've written regarding use of transport links makes a lot of sense and sounds realistic, everything sounds great.

 

 

BUT

 

While i'm not claiming to be any kind of financial expert I DO NOT believe that any bank will be dishing us up all or a majority of cash required to purchase land and build a new stadium.

 

On the Arsenal comparison, one of the important things that we lack is a real asset which they had in Highbury. They were able to turn that land into apartments, even keeping the HIghbury turf as gardens to bring in cash from some fans keen to live on a bit of the clubs history! These were sold for huge amounts and a quick looks shows one for sale now, a 1 bedroom appartment for £430,000 and they were able to build 650 apartments. The area Goodison Park is in you could buy about 8 or 9 2 bedroom terraced houses for the price of one of those apartments!

 

The risk to the bank is that the club get relegated prior a new ground being completed and it is obviously one of the main factors that would stop them dishing out even more money to a loss making football club.

[Matt]

 

no one, but no one disagrees that we need to get a new stadium.

 

What you've written regarding use of transport links makes a lot of sense and sounds realistic, everything sounds great.

 

 

BUT

 

While i'm not claiming to be any kind of financial expert I DO NOT believe that any bank will be dishing us up all or a majority of cash required to purchase land and build a new stadium.

 

On the Arsenal comparison, one of the important things that we lack is a real asset which they had in Highbury. They were able to turn that land into apartments, even keeping the HIghbury turf as gardens to bring in cash from some fans keen to live on a bit of the clubs history! These were sold for huge amounts and a quick looks shows one for sale now, a 1 bedroom appartment for £430,000 and they were able to build 650 apartments. The area Goodison Park is in you could buy about 8 or 9 2 bedroom terraced houses for the price of one of those apartments!

 

The risk to the bank is that the club get relegated prior a new ground being completed and it is obviously one of the main factors that would stop them dishing out even more money to a loss making football club.

 

Not to mention all the other points that us financially inept folk have made....

[Guest John Burns]

this is all im trying to understand! well, that and why any irrefutable evidence presented is ignored or belittled...

 

 

 

indeed they do. How?

It is all in the thread.

[Matt]

It is all in the thread.

no its not. You have proposals, but no plan. So, again, what can we do here?

[Guest John Burns]

I would hate to be locked in the same room as you,

I see you still have nothing sensible to say yet and still resort to personal sneers. You are not worth the time of day. In real life if I met you at bar, I would probably drop speaking to you within a few minutes for obvious reasons. Please do not post as you offer sweet nothing.

[Guest John Burns]

no its not. You have proposals, but no plan. So, again, what can we do here?

It is all in the 4 pages of the thread. Re-read post number 1.

Edited May 21, 2013 by John Burns

[Peter H]

Most feedback has been useless - pure anti for the sake of it. Many do not want EFC to be great again that is clear, and uneducated ones taking matters to a personal level. If you read the posts, the Merseyside Civic Society know of it as do the DfT. Also the Council and it was brought up in the Council's Transport Select Committee. It appears some Evertonians are selective in what they want to know about the club and where it is going and solutions to get us there.

 

One thing is clear is that the club is at a crossroads. If the club makes the wrong decision, expect a yo-yo team for decades to come. NO Sugar Daddy will come and take over. The Sugar Daddys who took over Man C and Chelski saw a clubs that were well run with decent facilities and ambition. That will not be the case when they see the relic of GP and poor relegation fighting league record.

 

BTW, just read it all again and NO-ONE has been anti your posts. Most have been positive, but questioned the "HOW to do it" part. We all agree that in order to make more money, we need to invest in a new arena. Which will allow us to MAKE more money. You have proposed a financial package with possibly a large backer at our side. Most here have argued that we wont get a financial package due to our current finances. You have stated that we are all wrong regarding the clubs finances and that Everton in fact is one of the only clubs to show a profit over the past 11 years or so. We have pointed out that the profit that has been made over time has been due to the sales of our assets, such as Finch Farm and most of our star players and that we have had negative results over the past few years. You say it does not matter and that the answer is a financial package. We have a sizable debt. The security for the latest loans has been money that we haven't earned YET (Future TV-income). You say that we can borrow the money against the security of the new arena but IF it all goes horribly wrong and we cant fill the arena to capacity due to the sporting side of things (which you say do not matter) such as Everton being relegated, players getting sold, longer stint in lower leagues etc, where does that leave the arena? Which bank, or possible large backer wants to be stuck with a brand new arena and a club that isn't able to fill it to its capacity?

 

We are just going around in circles and the only thing that we all can agree on is:

a) we need a new stadium

We don't know what you want us to do

 

Question, would you like Everton to start fresh? Sell our best players to raise funds so that we are able to clear debt. Thus allowing us to put a financial package together to be able to fund a new arena? (after all its just plain business, its got nothing to do with the sport)

[Avinalaff]

Anything for an argument with you lot.

[Matt]

It is all in the 4 pages of the thread. Re-read post number 1.

yes, Ive read your proposals. They seem very well researched, some of it is very well presented. There is still no plan that I see, just good ideas and there isnt any real balance. By balance, I mean acknowledgement of evidence that may prove an obstacle going forward. Nothing Ive said has been an attempt to derail / anti your ideas (though I do come across as sarcastic and flippant in some cases, for which I apologise). If I have made a statement to challenge, its common sense counter argument to make sure all sides are covered. I play devils advocate as its part of my job as business analyst - cover all bases. I have re-read several times now, and the logic for the most part is sound. So whats the next step?

 

What, can we at Toffeetalk do? Do you have a petition to sign? Are you looking for an expert to turn the proposals into a plan of action, which can be presented to the club?

 

Again, if TT can help with a campaign, im sure there are members who will offer help. But we need to know if youre here to share your ideas and nothing more, if youre here looking for more input or youre here with real intent to make changes.

[Guest John Burns]

While i'm not claiming to be any kind of financial expert I DO NOT believe that any bank will be dishing us up all or a majority of cash required to purchase land and build a new stadium.

I think the opposite. Evidence all over the UK proves that banks will support such enterprises.

 

On the Arsenal comparison, one of the important things that we lack is a real asset which they had in Highbury.

It is true GP is not worth as much as Highbury, but in the whole scale of a £100m or so project the old ground land values do not mean so much. Bellefield was worth more than GP as the land in West Derby was worth far more than in Walton.

 

It is true that EFC could get relegated prior a new stadium being completed, but the new stadium maximizes income to catapult the club back up. What no one has seen is that most football clubs run at a loss. Man U pay £46m per year in interest alone. More than all the Prem clubs together. Yet they area one of the world's top clubs.

 

The banks are prepared to lend money to largely loss making concerns as they are guaranteed a constant income and football clubs tend not to go belly up - only one and that was in 1962. Most people in this country run their households at a loss, in the form of a big mortgage, that does not mean they cannot keep going on an every day basis.

Edited May 21, 2013 by John Burns

[Bill]

I see you still have nothing sensible to say yet and still resort to personal sneers. You are not worth the time of day. In real life if I met you at bar, I would probably drop speaking to you within a few minutes for obvious reasons. Please do not post as you offer sweet nothing.

 

Theres no point in me saying anything sensible, dozens of people have talked sense to you, and time after time they have asked you to explain or to answer questions. You have repeatedly ignored all requests, content to steamroller everybody, and to hear the sound of your own voice with an incessant barrage of excruciating posts. Give it a rest man.

[Guest John Burns]

 

Theres no point in me saying anything sensible, dozens of people have talked sense to you,

You haven't. If you do not like the topic of the thread but out !!! It is simple. You can write about bodily function on other threads.

[FairWooney]

"What no one has seen is that most football clubs run at a loss"

 

Sorry but everyone is aware of this.

 

Man Utd are a completely different force. Like Apple, Sony and McDonalds they are one of the worlds top brands and will always make profits, despite their massive payments in interest. They are paying off their debts at a reasonable rate as they continue to keep making massive amounts of money, not just from the stadium (which does make them a hell of a lot) but from the massive sponsorship deals they have as well as every other area possible!

 

can you explain why Everton in their plans for a new stadium have never thought to go and get a loan from the bank to do so and have always said that they are not able to get the money to build a new stadium without some form of benefactor (be it business interest or individual/private) coming along to help?

[Mirallas]

Management consultant? And your plan is to drag Everton through a financial hell that will 100% certainly be their demise?

[Peter H]

[Guest John Burns]

"What no one has seen is that most football clubs run at a loss"

 

Sorry but everyone is aware of this.

 

Man Utd are a completely different force. Like Apple, Sony and McDonalds they are one of the worlds top brands and will always make profits, despite their massive payments in interest. They are paying off their debts at a reasonable rate as they continue to keep making massive amounts of money, not just from the stadium (which does make them a hell of a lot) but from the massive sponsorship deals they have as well as every other area possible!

 

can you explain why Everton in their plans for a new stadium have never thought to go and get a loan from the bank to do so and have always said that they are not able to get the money to build a new stadium without some form of benefactor (be it business interest or individual/private) coming along to help?

I cannot speak for the whims of individual owners, who had odd ideas as the Kings Dock fiasco displayed. The club did go to the finance sector for loans for the Kirkby project and also Tesco were involved. Tesco were never financing the stadium 100%. If I recall rightly, they never were contributing much at all for the stadium, if anything. The joint venture was to give it more appeal and get it through planning. The local council Knowsley were fully behind the project.

 

Man U do make a fortune on the stadium alone, as do lesser Arsenal. Because of the cult brand of Man U fans will attend a 76,000 stadium with pretty poor pubic transport access. Arsenal knew they did not have such wide cult appeal, so looked at the matter sensibly and used the available rapid-transit rail all around the site they chose to get to the level of Old Trafford in income - they succeeded. Manchester does not have a rapid-transit rail network (slow, street running trollycars do not count), but like London, hey presto!, the city of Liverpool has one. EFC and LFC need to follow Arsenal's lead in this aspect to ensure success and use the rapid-transit network.

 

Gary Neville recently stated that in the 1970s/80s Man U were a laughing stock saying they were the worlds biggest club while LFC took everything sight - it took them 26 years to win a title. The Man U board sat down and reorganized the club to gain more revenue to get better managers, coaches and players. They focused on the stadium. They put in restaurants, clubs, etc. It worked beyond their wildest dreams.

Edited May 21, 2013 by John Burns

[Guest John Burns]

<snip>

Please leave the thread as you are a waste of space. He must work in the bagwash.

Edited May 21, 2013 by John Burns

[Guest John Burns]

Management consultant? And your plan is to drag Everton through a financial hell that will 100% certainly be their demise?

I like your vivid imagination.

 

Demise will certainly ensue by staying at Woodison Park.

Edited May 21, 2013 by John Burns