To the future

[Zoo]

Many do not want EFC to be great again that is clear

 

Everyone on this forum wants Everton FC to be a great football club but everyone on this forum has a different opinion on how we should get there. If you come onto an online forum with 5000+ members then you should be prepared for some different views.

 

Just because someone doesn't share your opinion doesn't mean that they don't want Everton to move forward.

[Newty82]

Blimey...take a step back...and breath!!!

 

This is a good topic, lets not let it turn into a bitch session.

 

John...you have very valid points. Again, and ots not the first time I have typed this...and others have too, we agree new stadia is needed to boost income and stay competitive at the top.

 

However, the point many are trying, but failing, to make to you is a) Where will the money come from when we have none to very little to start with, plus hardly any assets because they have already been sold to keep the club going? Your answer to this is a loan. Unfortunately...we already have a number of loans secured against future income. We also already owe the bank £45-50million. I get that you believe we run at a profit...unfortunately thats not true. We run at a loss, the annual club accounts tell us that. Only sales of assets and/or players make it look less gloomy.

 

If we try to secure finance with a bank or 3rd party, they are gonna want some strong arrangements, so it will be either a high interest rate (can we afford it?), an asset as security (we dont have any!), or a guarantor...who would that be? It goes a lot deeper than this...but as I am typing this while taking a dump, im finding it hard to concentrate.

 

This is just my view. The new stadia would be awesome, as would the rail links.

 

No one is against what you are saying John, please just relax a little and take on board the real factual concerns.

[Bill]

Wow, only a member for 36 hours, got 40 posts and 37 of those are in this thread.

 

You really want to get your point across dont you.

[Trigger]

This model is unacceptable as it will not put EFC back in its traditional level. FACT, since Everton were founded as a pro club while at Anfield the club has been the richest club in the country for most of its existence. Only in the past 20 years did EFC slip. Younger fans accept this mediocrity as the norm. I do not. It is appalling to witness the club today compared to its rivals.

 

Something must be done and the only answer is increase the revenue stream. That can only be done, and maximized, by the solution in post no. 1, a new stadium. A new stadium idea is not new, but if the club is going to build a stadium adopt the model used by the most successful club ever in building a new stadium - Arsenal. The secret was get the fans in and out fast, direct, en-mass and in comfort using mas-transit rail. Liverpool has such an urban rail network, which Manchester drools over. All this is highly achievable. The club never took transport seriously with the Kirkby proposal and rightly were shown the door. Getting mass-transit rail direct to the stadium is easy by getting LFC, the council, DfT and other interested parties (Sainbury's at Knotty Ash)on-board.

 

I disagree that the model is unacceptable. I'd agree it's barely sustainable (but it is just) and the likelyhood of it producing a consistant Top 4 finish is a remote one. However, In my opinion, it is better this way than beting everything on "black" and seeing what happens.

 

I also disagree that a New Stadium on its own is the solution. It would need a strategic investment across playing staff, improved infrastructure and a fully funded commercial/marketing plan around generating greater income internationally. This can only be done with "sugar daddy" investor who doesn't mind too much if it doesn't work. QPR and Fernandes come to mind, although who knows in another few years.

 

And talking of FACTS there is absolutely no way on this earth you can state that a New Stadium can be guarenteed to make EFC more successful unless you can guarentee the forecasted revenues it would produce (which you can't because no one can). I would argue that if any money at all got diverted at all from player or staff wage budgets to in any way to fund or end up filling a funding void should forecasted tickets or marketing sales fall short then we would fall out of the premiership.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Trigger

[Dalziel Kane]

Blimey...take a step back...and breath!!!

 

This is a good topic, lets not let it turn into a bitch session.

 

John...you have very valid points. Again, and ots not the first time I have typed this...and others have too, we agree new stadia is needed to boost income and stay competitive at the top.

 

However, the point many are trying, but failing, to make to you is a) Where will the money come from when we have none to very little to start with, plus hardly any assets because they have already been sold to keep the club going? Your answer to this is a loan. Unfortunately...we already have a number of loans secured against future income. We also already owe the bank £45-50million. I get that you believe we run at a profit...unfortunately thats not true. We run at a loss, the annual club accounts tell us that. Only sales of assets and/or players make it look less gloomy.

 

If we try to secure finance with a bank or 3rd party, they are gonna want some strong arrangements, so it will be either a high interest rate (can we afford it?), an asset as security (we dont have any!), or a guarantor...who would that be? It goes a lot deeper than this...but as I am typing this while taking a dump, im finding it hard to concentrate.

 

This is just my view. The new stadia would be awesome, as would the rail links.

 

No one is against what you are saying John, please just relax a little and take on board the real factual concerns.

 

And I'm finding it hard to eat while reading damn you. There goes todays dinner

 

What kind of a fucking admission in that anyway to put on a forum anywhere ? 'I am taking a crap' FFS. Outstanding.

 

Once again, the author put together a good piece, if a little too detailed, and everyone's had their say, but you can narrow this down easy enough

 

We could use a new stadium granted, Goodison Park is in need of more than just a lick of paint here and there, but we simply don't have the cash to see this end, so we're stuck where we are for the immediate future, and we haven't been able to get in the investment needed to challenge or keep up now with the Sky four and while having done well under Moyes and become recognized again, still aren't serious contenders once again to challenge for the champions league places or get back to our former stature. The need for a cash injection some seem imperative but the stadia issue isn't quite so pressing. Goodison's not going to collapse overnight or in a total state of disrepair, and as stated by many, having a great new fancy venue doesn't guarantee a success.

 

Think there's been some good debate to be had here and everyone's raised a point but how far are we really going to get on this. All just speculation with no end product. First and foremost have to sort out the managerial vacancy and take things from there.

 

Page went static and lost some work from saved content feature but can't change that thinking

[Zoo]

For that post alone Newty you're a legend in my eyes.

[Mirallas]

[uN MODE] Honorable chairman, honorable participants, I wish to hand in a motion to move into unmoderated caucus for half an hour so we can close the debates and write a draft resolution, which can be amended afterwards. [/uN MODE]

[Mirallas]

For that post alone Newty you're a legend in my eyes.

Hey... I saved the day earlier!!

[Lowensda]

Whether was a bit dull today wasn't it? Where's out summer gone eh?

[Matt]

Newty, Trigger.... spot on

Edited May 20, 2013 by Matt

[Zoo]

Hey... I saved the day earlier!!

 

You've always been a legend in my eyes Mirallas.

[Lowensda]

What he meant was 'leg-end'. So in fact, with the leg being a limb attached to the body, the body being the name to describe the casing of a bell, he means "you've always been a bell-end in my eyes Mirallas".

 

And at which point, I'd say "Zoo...play nice you leg-wod."

[Zoo]

Good to have you back on form J .

[Lowensda]

Just nice to be back fella booooom.

 

Missus is away, had a couple and I'm ready to partay....on TT

[Mirallas]

Just nice to be back fella booooom.

 

Missus is away, had a couple and I'm ready to partay....on TT

 

[Avinalaff]

Blimey...take a step back...and breath!!!

 

This is a good topic, lets not let it turn into a bitch session.

 

John...you have very valid points. Again, and ots not the first time I have typed this...and others have too, we agree new stadia is needed to boost income and stay competitive at the top.

 

However, the point many are trying, but failing, to make to you is a) Where will the money come from when we have none to very little to start with, plus hardly any assets because they have already been sold to keep the club going? Your answer to this is a loan. Unfortunately...we already have a number of loans secured against future income. We also already owe the bank £45-50million. I get that you believe we run at a profit...unfortunately thats not true. We run at a loss, the annual club accounts tell us that. Only sales of assets and/or players make it look less gloomy.

 

If we try to secure finance with a bank or 3rd party, they are gonna want some strong arrangements, so it will be either a high interest rate (can we afford it?), an asset as security (we dont have any!), or a guarantor...who would that be? It goes a lot deeper than this...but as I am typing this while taking a dump, im finding it hard to concentrate.

 

This is just my view. The new stadia would be awesome, as would the rail links.

 

No one is against what you are saying John, please just relax a little and take on board the real factual concerns.

 

Are you talking shite again Newty ?

[Lowensda]

 

As a nerd, I like that. A lot. To a point where I'm going to steal it and use it everytime I just want to say those words aha.

[MikeO]

Missus is away, had a couple and I'm ready to partay....on TT

 

I'm in the same situation, wife is at her parents for the week looking after her dad while her mum takes a break.

 

I went to the pub at lunchtime, had one pint and came back to TT....sad isn't it.

 

Oh, and I bought a new ink cartridge for my printer. Exciting.

[Avinalaff]

 

I'm in the same situation, wife is at her parents for the week looking after her dad while her mum takes a break.

 

I went to the pub at lunchtime, had one pint and came back to TT....sad isn't it.

 

Oh, and I bought a new ink cartridge for my printer. Exciting.

 

Did you scrape the black sticky shite from inside the tap sprinklers ?

[MikeO]

 

Did you scrape the black sticky shite from inside the tap sprinklers ?

 

It's an option.....got to get one "grand gesture" in so she doesn't think I've been a lazy bastard all week .

 

Might just cut the grass.

[Lowensda]

It's good though, normally the ONLY time I get now, is like newty, on the crapper.

 

So now, I can honestly say that I'm dressed and appropriate, ready for some banter.

 

[Avinalaff]

 

It's an option.....got to get one "grand gesture" in so she doesn't think I've been a lazy bastard all week .

 

Might just cut the grass.

 

Or give the next doors lad a fiver to do it with threats of the secrecy act and go back to the pub.

[marcopaulo]

 

Or give the next doors lad a fiver to do it with threats of the secrecy act and go back to the pub.

 

genius! wish i had thought of that when i lived with a woman!

[Guest John Burns]

We could use a new stadium granted, Goodison Park is in need of more than just a lick of paint here and there, but we simply don't have the cash to see this end,

You borrow as Arsenal did. No club has the price of a stadium in readys in their back pocket. The new stadium was so successful the loans could have been paid back within 6 years.

 

Everton require an enabler, Tesco, for Kirkby. Arsenal did not need an enabler. They did their homework and saw how they could maximize attendances by placing the state-of-the-art stadium around rapid-transit rail stations. This almost guarantees high attendances - as the past 7 years has shown. The banks saw this projection, agreed, and the money came. The crowds came in to the point ALL games in 7 years have been sell outs. This is unprecedented in football in any part of the world.

 

Yet the old Highbury was very similar in many ways to GP and about the same capacity as well. Arsenal were about the same size as a club and pre-Prem won less trophies than Everton. A magic manager, Wenger, kept Arsenal mixing it with the rich boys at the top. His magic worse off slightly and the new stadium kept Arsenal up with Man U. Without the Emirates Arsenal would be like Everton right now.

 

Why are many on this forum obsessed with defecating? It does not portray a good image for Evertonians Liverpool people in general. This mental problem can be treated.

Edited May 21, 2013 by John Burns

[Guest John Burns]

I prefer to look at the published accounts. From memory we lost around £9m last year.

From fact we have made profits. Read the Guardian link.

[Matt]

From fact we have made profits. Read the Guardian link.

which, this one?

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/apr/18/premier-league-finances-club-by-club

 

 

 

 

Accounts for the year to 31 May 2012

Ownership: Shares in the Everton Football Club Company Limited are owned by: Bill Kenwright 25%, Jon Woods 19%, Robert Earl (resident of Florida) 23%

Turnover: 8th in league, £81m (down from £82m in 2011)

Gate and programme sales: £17m

TV and broadcasting: £53m

Other commercial activities: £11m

Wage bill: 10th, £63m (up from £58m)

Wages as proportion of turnover: 78%

Loss before tax: £9m (increased from £5m)

Net debt: £46m

Interest payable: £4m

Highest-paid director: No director was paid; chief executive Robert Elstone is not a director

State they're in:

The money situation reflects the impression David Moyes and his team give on the field, that Everton are pushing to the limit of their current potential. A spirited seventh place was won with only the 10th highest wage bill but with no funding from owners, no buyer or stadium expansion, Everton are stretched inexorably into losses. Lending arrangements from Barclays Bank expire on 31 July, so chairman Bill Kenwright is seeking renewal at the same level, while also borrowing against future TV revenues. A football club still in their grand old ground, determined to compete in a league of sheikhs, oligarchs and US-owned corporations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know your link points to a 12,3m profit (over 11 years) but Id bet that is a profit on players sales vs what he has spent rather than the club operating at a profit, seeing as the previous paragraph and following paragraph is only talking about transfers.

 

The fact is (assuming the Guardian are the be all and end all of fact based journalism), we are running at a loss and have been for a looooong time, which is subsidised by inflated player sales.

 

Would a new stadium help generate the income required to balance the books and make a real profit from a business side. Of course it would. But the loans required (considering we're already 46m in debt) would put the club in serious jeopardy.

 

I'll ask my question for the umpteenth time, what can we do as fans here on TT to help?

[Guest John Burns]

I disagree that the model is unacceptable.

Staying at GP is totally unacceptable. The best guide is looking at how other clubs manage it. It is best to take the most successful, then likes of Arsenal.

 

You even rightly state "I'd agree it's barely sustainable"

 

I did not state that a new Stadium on its own is the solution. I stated a new stadium with rapid-transit rail links would maximize attendances and ensure the stadium is success - look at Arsenal. Not only that Liverpool has a rapid-transit rail network that can be used for both clubs.

 

It is all about projections based on probability. A stadium in an area not well served by mass transit rail with take far less overall in attendances than one well served with direct links all over Merseyside and to the mainline stations at Lime St and South Parkway (also for the airport).

 

A new stadium of 60,000-70,000 capacity with superb, direct, mass-transit rail links can 99% guarantee to make EFC more successful. It can also be used in summer for concerts to again maximize income.

[Guest John Burns]

I know your link points to a 12,3m profit (over 11 years)

Over that period most clubs made no profits. Everton did. That does not sound like a financial basket case. That sounds like a club with potential that when realised will create more financial success.

 

Everton's taking on GP is about 1/6th of the takings at Man U at Old Trafford. Take Everton's takings near to those of Man U and the club will be far wealthier. Also a new crisp state-of-the-art stadium, that is eligible fro Euro finals, gives the club kudos and positive image. The current image, in an inadequate half wooden football ground, is one of a club strapped for cash and poorly run (rightly or wrongly).

 

Doing as in post No. 1, http://www.toffeetalk.com/index.php?/topic/25128-to-the-future/&do=findComment&comment=342545, almost gurantees putting EFC back at the top.

 

Awareness by the fans of what puts the club back to the top tier of clubs is essential. They can then put pressure on the club to effect positive change.

Edited May 21, 2013 by John Burns

[Matt]

Oh, additionally, Arsenal have Champions League income and, with that, the massive TV revenue and prize money linked, before they built their super new digs. That income (which we dont have) will have appeased their banks, not to mention they were winning the title and cups (additional prize money).

 

Interesting fact, they havent won anything since they moved into this new super stadium, where as they had won 3 titles and FA cups in 8 years or so at Highbury.

[Matt]

Over that period most clubs made no profits. Everton did. That does not sound like a financial basket case. That sounds like a club with potential that when realised will create more financial success.

 

Everton's taking on GP is about 1/6th of the takings at Man U at Old Trafford. Take Everton's takings near to those of Man U and the club will be far wealthier. Also a new crisp state-of-the-art stadium, that is eligible fro Euro finals, gives the club kudos and positive image. The current image, in an inadequate half wooden football ground, is one of a club strapped for cash and poorly run (rightly or wrongly).

 

Doing as in post No. 1, http://www.toffeetalk.com/index.php?/topic/25128-to-the-future/&do=findComment&comment=342545, almost gurantees putting EFC back at the top.

profits from transfers I agreed with, but operating (i.e. overall - not just looking at one slice of the pie) we are running at a big loss, ergo not attractive for investors or banks, when it comes to requesting addtional loans.

 

Would a new stadium increase revenue? Yes

Would a new stadium increase our profile? Yes

Would a new stadium mean we could host events outside of the season? Yes

Would a new stadium show real ambition as a club? Yes

Do we have 46m of debt already, with the banks forcing us to sell players to balance the books as we currently lose millions each year? Yes - although this season we are supposed to be able to buy without selling thanks to the new TV deal (which loans are already booked against)

Will saddling 200m+ debt (to finance a new ground, not including team additions) on the club be a risk? Yes

 

For (what I hope is) the last time, can you please answer; what we can do about this? You have a great idea, have thought some of it through but Im not sure what pushing your ideas on here is supposed to achieve. Are you starting a collection to clear the debt? Are you looking for an expert on here to help develop your ideas further? Id love to help, as im sure we all would here, just tell me/us how.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Matt