Ecce Homo Thread

[Guest millwallforever]

No, this is not a thread about homosexuality. Ecce Homo is one of the strangest books in the philosophical canon of the West. It was written by a man infected with syphilis and the phase of clinical insanity was setting in. Ecce Homo means 'behold, man!' The book is primarily a self-reflection and secondarily a reflection on human nature as such. Nowadays it is fashionable to scold man for all the evil he does, but all too often we forget about the good deeds of which men have shown themselves capable.

 

It has to be said here that goodness itself is a problematic concept; far more so than evil. There was a famous Roman-Catholic prelate who uttered the following words:

 

"If I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. If I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist."

 

Throughout the ages there have been privileged members of society who have held that poverty is a social necessity, because it affords us the opportunity to exercise the virtue of charity (a very easy thing to say if you yourself are rich), whereas others have countered that poverty is a grave social injustice: poverty must be done away with; to instrumentalise the poor by offering them handouts with a view to easing your conscience betrays a perverse mindset. I agree wholeheartedly with the latter view.

 

Enough of the foregoing. This thread is about the good, the evil, the bizarre, the risible that man thinks, feels, imagines, and does. I enclose two videos illustrating the contrary inclinations present in all of us.

 

 

 

 

Good:

 

 

Evil:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJObXK1FtVo

Edited November 12, 2014 by millwallforever

[johnh]

Was this the 'subject of the week' debate in last weeks Millwall FC programme?

[Guest millwallforever]

Out shopping!

 

[MikeO]

Out shopping!

 

Don't see that as being relevant to a good/evil discussion; it was just stupid.

[Guest millwallforever]

Don't see that as being relevant to a good/evil discussion; it was just stupid.

I expanded the categories of good and evil with bizarre and laughable.

[Formby]

For a heat-stopping second, I thought there was someone else (and an Everton fan, too) who had read John Seeley's Ecce Homo, a quite obscure tome on the life of Christ.

[MikeO]

For a heat-stopping second, I thought there was someone else (and an Everton fan, too) who had read John Seeley's Ecce Homo, a quite obscure tome on the life of Christ.

 

That actually looks like a very interesting read (having googled it). Might well investigate, but I''m currently consumed by WW1 stuff. Makes mental note.

[Formby]

 

That actually looks like a very interesting read (having googled it). Might well investigate, but I''m currently consumed by WW1 stuff. Makes mental note.

 

I read it as part of my PhD years ago, Mike - caused a huge stir when it was first published - seminal work along with Darwin's On the Origin of Species.

[Guest millwallforever]

 

That actually looks like a very interesting read (having googled it). Might well investigate, but I''m currently consumed by WW1 stuff. Makes mental note.

 

You can download it as a pdf for free to your tablet here:

 

https://archive.org/details/eccehomo00seeliala

[Guest millwallforever]

No, I had heard of the book, but never actually read it. I was referring to the German Ecce Homo.

 

 

For a heat-stopping second, I thought there was someone else (and an Everton fan, too) who had read John Seeley's Ecce Homo, a quite obscure tome on the life of Christ.

[Guest millwallforever]

Now here is one of those grotesque byproducts of nature; 'people' like 'him' make my blood boil.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC3vIISUH-s

 

Edited November 13, 2014 by millwallforever

[Cornish Steve]

 

That actually looks like a very interesting read (having googled it). Might well investigate, but I''m currently consumed by WW1 stuff. Makes mental note.

Have you read Massie's 'Dreadnought'? It's great reading.

[MikeO]

Have you read Massie's 'Dreadnought'? It's great reading.

 

I haven't no, but that looks interesting also. I've signed up for a few courses with something called FutureLearn, which are free. all online and run by the Open University, with input from a lot of other unis. No official "qualification" to come out of it but I'm getting a bit obsessed, and the WW1 stuff is obviously so much to the fore just now.

[Cornish Steve]

 

I haven't no, but that looks interesting also. I've signed up for a few courses with something called FutureLearn, which are free. all online and run by the Open University, with input from a lot of other unis. No official "qualification" to come out of it but I'm getting a bit obsessed, and the WW1 stuff is obviously so much to the fore just now.

 

My grandfather recorded many of his WW-I experiences on cassette tape, and they make fascinating listening.

• Social pressure in Britain pretty much forcing teenagers to sign up under age and the army telling them to lie about their age
• Seeing farmers in France riding in vehicles powered by one or two dogs running in wheels, rather like hamsters
• Being surprised that French men and women in every village urinated in public
• Having donkeys pull all the big guns up hills
• Watching an impressive cavalry attack halted almost instantly by German machine gun fire
• Men being forced to drink a tablespoon of brandy a few minutes before going over the top at the Battle of the Somme
• Any man who didn't leave the trenches and run to the German lines was shot there and then
• The sergeant major who gave the order later being found drunk from finishing off the same brandy (and not going over the top)
• Lying in a crater with two dying men as Germans were close enough to hear them talking
• Being only one of a handful from the unit that survived that failed attack at the Somme
• Having to use mirrors to view the German lines, with the Germans using them as target practice
• Preferring to face the Saxons since they were quiet - only to have upper-class officers insist they fire on them
• Watching rats climb in and out of dead bodies in the trenches or uncovered during bombing

Edited November 13, 2014 by Cornish Steve

[MikeO]

 

 

My grandfather recorded many of his WW-I experiences on cassette tape, and they make fascinating listening.

• Social pressure in Britain pretty much forcing teenagers to sign up under age and the army telling them to lie about their age
• Seeing farmers in France riding in vehicles powered by one or two dogs running in wheels, rather like hamsters
• Being surprised that French men and women in every village urinated in public
• Having donkeys pull all the big guns up hills
• Watching an impressive cavalry attack halted almost instantly by German machine gun fire
• Men being forced to drink a tablespoon of brandy a few minutes before going over the top at the Battle of the Somme
• Any man who didn't leave the trenches and run to the German lines was shot there and then
• The sergeant major who gave the order later being found drunk from finishing off the same brandy (and not going over the top)
• Lying in a crater with two dying men as Germans were close enough to hear them talking
• Being only one of a handful from the unit that survived that failed attack at the Somme
• Having to use mirrors to view the German lines, with the Germans using them as target practice
• Preferring to face the Saxons since they were quiet - only to have upper-class officers insist they fire on them
• Watching rats climb in and out of dead bodies in the trenches or uncovered during bombing

 

 

Wow! Incredible record to have.

 

Sadly very sketchy stuff on my grandfather; we have copies of a couple of letters he wrote my grandmother, including a really heartfelt poem. We know that he was at Passchendaele and survived an advance that killed 95% of his unit (and left the 5% cut off behind enemy lines because the promised reinforcements never arrived). He came home a changed man and took to the bottle; eventually, in about 1935 grandma threw him out and he died homeless in 1957, three years before I was born. All down to the war? I don't know, but I'd have loved to have met him.

 

[johnh]

My mother had three brothers in the first World War. Two were gassed in France. One died aged only 51 from complications caused by the gassing. The other had a mental breakdown and spent 25 years in a mental hospital. The youngest was in the Navy and when he was due to join his ship he was dropped off at an uninhabited island where stores were kept. He was told that his ship would be coming for supplies and knew he would be waiting. He was totally alone on the island and waited 2 weeks for his ship. He was 18 years old. His mother, my Grandmother, told us that they had no contact with him for 2 years. Their father, my Grandfather, was a stevedore on Liverpool docks. He died, (long before I was born), in 1921. He drank contaminated water on a ship they were unloading and died from cholera. My Grandmother was born in Liverpool but of Irish parents. She was only 4ft 11in tall. She lost two daughters aged 8 and 18 months, what a hard life. She was about 83 years old when she died. I have a photostat copy of a letter my Grandfather wrote to his son in the Navy, just after he joined up. That letter and one photograph is all I know about him.

Just two stories about my Grandma. She once turned up at our house in Liverpool in the middle of an air-raid. In the black-out she had fallen and cut her hand badly (which eventually required several stitches). My mother went mad with her for coming out in an air-raid and Grandma just said 'well the Germans didn't get me'. She lived with one of my mother's sisters and after the war they moved to a house overlooking Newsham Park. I visited one Saturday and walking through Newsham Park I saw that it was packed with tents and marquees for an Orange Lodge 'do'. I went into Grandma's house (the doors were not locked in those days) but couldn't find anyone at home. Finally, I went into the 'front room' which was only used on special occasions. In there, I found Grandma kneeling down praying. I was a bit embarassed and made to leave but she said 'it's OK, come in, that's the Orange lodge over there and I'm praying for rain'. (Hope this doesn't offend anyone!)

 

Nostalgia rant over!.

[MikeO]

'it's OK, come in, that's the Orange lodge over there and I'm praying for rain'.

 

Brilliant.

[Cornish Steve]

My Grandmother was born in Liverpool but of Irish parents. She was only 4ft 11in tall.

 

I didn't realize this until recently, but this was about the average height of women prior to 1900. My own mother, born and raised in extreme poverty, was likewise very short. The reason, of course, was the same: poor nutrition as a child.

[Cornish Steve]

 

Sadly very sketchy stuff on my grandfather; we have copies of a couple of letters he wrote my grandmother, including a really heartfelt poem. We know that he was at Passchendaele and survived an advance that killed 95% of his unit (and left the 5% cut off behind enemy lines because the promised reinforcements never arrived). He came home a changed man and took to the bottle; eventually, in about 1935 grandma threw him out and he died homeless in 1957

 

My grandad was a very cruel man. This was always a puzzle because his many brothers and sisters were all wonderful people. No doubt he was the anomaly because of his experiences in WW-I. How do you react when all that's visible between you and the enemy lines are bits of tree covered with bits of human bodies?

 

I remember once that the children who lived next door let their rabbit out to play, and it escaped into grandad's garden to eat his lettuces. He caught it, wrung its neck, and threw it over the wall for the children to find. There's no excuse for that, and no excuse for the many other cruel things he did, but, looking back, I can partly understand the reason why. The war, and those who fought in it, must have completely changed everything - not just then but for the next two generations.

[Paddock]

I never had any direct descendants in any of the wars but absolute upmost respect and heartfelt thanks to all those who did.

[MikeO]

[Guest millwallforever]

The funny thing is that the NPD, the main extreme right wing party in Germany, is nowhere as racist as the right wing populist parties of Scandinavia. Compared to the Scandinavian right wing populists and the BNP, the NPD are downright moderate. In other words, you can get away with the kind of racist bile in Scandinavia and the UK for which you would be jailed in Germany.

 

Edited November 21, 2014 by millwallforever

[MikeO]

The funny thing is that the NPD, the main extreme right wing party in Germany, is nowhere as racist as the right wing populist parties of Scandinavia. Compared to the Scandinavian right wing populists and the BNP, the NPD are downright moderate. In other words, you can get away with racist bile in Scandinavia and the UK for which you would be jailed in Germany.

 

 

Good on Germany.

 

Have to say it looks a million miles removed from the average far right march you see in other parts of the world. They look intimidating and have all the regalia but their behaviour seems impeccable.

[Guest millwallforever]

The German laws are far more stringent when it comes to dealing with extremism - to the point of overkill. But - and this is the important point - racists elsewhere in Europe can get away with a great deal so long as they pledge their opposition to Hitler and his modern ilk. Case in point: Breivik hated Hitler and loved Israel.

 

 

 

 

Good on Germany.

 

Have to say it looks a million miles removed from the average far right march you see in other parts of the world. They look intimidating and have all the regalia but their behaviour seems impeccable.