Bailey Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 As most of you will know the decision on Destination Kirky should be made this week (I think sometime before Thursday?). This will be a big week for Everton football club, especially as it ends in the derby match. I found this article on ToffeeWeb and its attracted quite a lot of interest (248 replies!) and it has a lot of information that I had never heard or never realised so I thought some of you may like to read it, whatever the outcome you want. The original article isnt that much cop, but some of the replies are very enlightening! http://www.toffeeweb.com/season/09-10/comment/fan/article.asp?submissionID=13719 If the link doesnt work just go to Toffeeweb - Fans Articles - "What Happens If..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcrawfor Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 With the decision on DK soon to be made I'm wondering what y'all think about the move. As I live in the states and haven't made the trip across the pond for a match, I've got no clue or reason to care. I'd hope the move would make us more appealing to buyers (not investors), but again, I've no idea. Have at it (I expect a blood thirsty brawl). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 I oppose it I accidentally deleted the poll when merging the topics. Sorry!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 If it goes through I'll be very sad about it, and just hope that we fail to find the money just like we did with the King's Dock. Now that would have been a stadium to be proud of, rather than the Kirkby shed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 If it goes through I'll be very sad about it, and just hope that we fail to find the money just like we did with the King's Dock. Now that would have been a stadium to be proud of, rather than the Kirkby shed. Yeah lets stick with the Walton shed and carry on regardless! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 New stadium becomes the top goal for Everton By Andrew Bounds Published: November 24 2009 02:00 | Last updated: November 24 2009 02:00 Everton Football Club achieved record turnover last season but said it had little opportunity to increase revenue further - and remain competitive in the Premier League - without a controversial move to a new stadium. Boosted by an appearance in the FA Cup final and a new marketing deal with Kitbag, the online retailer, Everton's turnover for the year to May 31 totalled £79.7m, up from £75.7m, according to figures seen by the Financial Times. The wage bill remained at about £45m, a quarter that of Premiership leaders Chelsea, who beat the Merseyside club 2-1 in the FA Cup final at Wembley. Profit, before player trading sales, dipped from £6.8m to £6.2m. Robert Elstone, chief executive, told the FT that if a government planning inquiry that is expected to report this week rejected a new 50,000-seater stadium the club would probably sink into the bottom half of the table over the next decade. He said: "The top half of the Premier League will be occupied by clubs with great facilities or billionaires. "In 10 years' time, if we are still at Goodison Park, it is very difficult for us to be knocking on the door of the top four and very difficult to be competing in the top half. The new facilities are of critical importance." While Goodison Park's capacity is 40,000, a 10th of those seats have such restricted views they are rarely filled, with average gates stuck below 37,000. "Some 21,000 out of 40,000 seats have a pillar between them and the pitch. You can't get a drink or snack at half time," said Mr Elstone. "Every time we open gates on a match day we take £800,000. Arsenal take £3.3m." Everton has a big fan base, with almost 27,000 season ticket holders, including corporate members, some of who are hosted in a marquee in the car park for lack of space. Under manager David Moyes the club has consistently finished in the top six, outperforming big-spending rivals, but that could prove hard to sustain. Many fans oppose the move from the historic Goodison Park stadium to Kirkby, four miles away in the suburbs of Liverpool. However, hemmed in by terraced houses and a church in one corner, redevelopment would not increase capacity and would cost more than a new ground, the club said. Bill Kenwright, the theatre impresario who is chairman and main shareholder, put Everton up for sale last year. Mr Elstone said there had been no firm interest so the move, mooted for a decade, was vital. Kirkby is the only affordable option because of "a unique three-way partnership", he said. Tesco is giving a £52m subsidy and Knowsley council is providing the land. Everton will have a 999-year lease on the stadium, which will have 50,000 seats with 2,500 corporate places. Sir Terry Leahy, chief executive of Tesco, is a lifelong Everton fan and club adviser and has written an open letter backing the move . Tesco wants to build a superstore on the site and develop up to 50 retail units, a hotel and leisure facilities, creating a new centre for Kirkby across 80 acres. Neighbours, including Liverpool city council, have objected, fearing it would lure shoppers from their town centres, so the government called the application in. Mr Elstone said the year's delay made building the new stadium more difficult, though it has an improved sponsorship deal with Chang, the Thai beer. "It is harder now than it was 12 months ago. A lot of it will depend on our ability to get a good naming rights deal. "The Emirates stadium has been a fantastic case study. The company and the club have got a lot out of it. "Sponsorship money is harder to find, debt finance is harder to find, funding is going to be a challenge." However, he said that Everton had many attractions to a naming rights partner - or buyer - as a founder member of the English league, though its last title was in 1987. "They aren't making football clubs like that any more". Many believe that Everton should share a new stadium with Liverpool, its neighbour across Stanley Park. Mr Elstone said that while he had no objection on principle, half the £300m cost was too high. There could also be a dispute over naming rights. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/61383caa-d899-11de-b63a-00144feabdc0.html?nclick_check=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogs Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 I started out being pretty ambivalent about the Kirkby move, erring on the side of support maybe, becuase it's pretty obvious Goodison isn't up to scratch anymore and isn't going to get the makeover it needs (needed to be done 15 years ago if at all). But the longer this saga goes on, the more you get the impression the board have put all their eggs in one basket on this one, no plan B - Elstone saying we'll be a bottom half club in 10 years if it doesn't go ahead, wtf?!? What kind of business plan is that? What's the contingency? It just reeks of us being seduced by Tesco's offer of cash and waking up one day to find we've signed our future away to Sir Terry and his merry men. He might be an Everton fan, but he's a brutal business man - I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere in the small print we stand to lose a load of money to Tesco if this doesn't go ahead, which is why the board are sounding so desperate. We should have walked away long ago in my opinion, but perhaps that's not an option now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Initially, a “Co-operation Agreement” was entered into by Tesco Stores Limited and Knowsley, and was signed on 20 July 2006. Everton Football Club entered into a tri-partite “Exclusivity Agreement” with Knowsley and Tesco, which was signed on 15 November 2006. The ballot for fans was in August 2007. The club and Tesco could have entered into further agreements but it's unknown if they have done so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 It just reeks of us being seduced by Tesco's offer of cash and waking up one day to find we've signed our future away to Sir Terry and his merry men. who signed the forms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted November 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Apparently the Tesco will pay 52 million is bollacks... The documents show that this value is derived from the value of the land after the development has been completed and even Tesco Terry has said that they arent paying a penny towards the stadium. Similarly Terry had said initially that it was an enabling development i.e. if the retail park wasnt built then neither would the stadium, however since it got called in, Tesco have changed their minds and have said that if the stadium cant be built then Tescos will still try and build their store. I was initially for the move and thought it would be an exciting time for Evertonians with fortunes on the pitch looking up and a nice shiny new, and cheap (remember the virtually free comment from Wyness)stadium to be proud of. I now feel like I am being black mailed by the club as the quote from Elstone above highlights (if it doesnt go ahead we will be bottom half etc etc). I am now actually scared for the future of the club. If its a yes then we will be paying at least 78mil for an average stadium in a retail park with no transport plans for what should be a 6mil a year benefit IF we have an average attendance of 47,000 for the year, even though we barely ever fill out our stadium now! However, if we stay then we will be at a ground that is more or less failing apart in places and is already way behind other clubs of our stature. I would have loved to redevelop Goodison, but I feel that option has been and gone as we have left it too long and should have happened way earlier in Kenwright's tenure, especially after KD collapsed. Whatever the result of the inquiry is going to be trouble for Everton and will more than likely mean we will need to sell our best players to fund it unless we get a sugar daddy. If that happens you can wave goodbye to the Rodwell's of the future and welcome back mediocracy, if not worse... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted November 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 It just reeks of us being seduced by Tesco's offer of cash and waking up one day to find we've signed our future away to Sir Terry and his merry men. He might be an Everton fan, but he's a brutal business man - I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere in the small print we stand to lose a load of money to Tesco if this doesn't go ahead, which is why the board are sounding so desperate. We should have walked away long ago in my opinion, but perhaps that's not an option now. Thats exactly what it feels and sounds like... Add to the fact that if it is a 'no' then we will have wasted 4 ish years and a reported figure of around 4/5million on 'experts' etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted November 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 "Many fans oppose the move from the historic Goodison Park stadium to Kirkby, four miles away in the suburbs of Liverpool. However, hemmed in by terraced houses and a church in one corner, redevelopment would not increase capacity and would cost more than a new ground, the club said." I would also take this with a pinch of salt... The contractors they got to look at the cost of redevloping Goodison were the same ones who costed the Tesco deal but had much more to gain by the Tesco deal going through. How it can cost the same amount of money to build a stadium from scratch and to redevelop parts of Goodison Im not quite sure. Saying that if it cost the same to redevelop Goodison and build the new 'average quality' Tescodome then I know which one I would chose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Whatever the outcome the whole situation is a mess, and there will be major problems for the club whichever way the decision goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Whatever the outcome the whole situation is a mess, and there will be major problems for the club whichever way the decision goes. That's my worry. I don't see either decision as being a positive one . I don't think the stadium was ever described as "average" Bailey....it was "mid range" (don't know where that description comes from originally though....sure someone will). I also don't know how "mid-range" and "top-range" are defined. Be interested to know what the criteria are . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 The stadium was originally described as world class by the club and then the mid-range tag came later when the plans were submitted didn't it? I could be wrong there though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 The stadium was originally described as world class by the club and then the mid-range tag came later when the plans were submitted didn't it? I could be wrong there though. That's about right Mark....it's from the planning application document dated November 2007. http://inquiry.knowsley.gov.uk/Core%20Documents/CD%201.6.1%20Proposed%20Stadium%20EFC.pdf 8.13 The cost of the proposed new stadium that is the subject of this planning application is in the region of £130m at September 2007 prices, including the basic level of IT and fit out required to achieve appropriate operating licences. This would deliver what can be regarded as an iconic and attractive well specified mid-range Premier League football stadium. Funny how everyone has picked up on "mid-range" as the main description rather than "iconic, attractive well specified." Maybe it's "mid-range" purely because it's not the same size as the Emirates or Old Trafford? Possibly those two plus Wembley are the only "World Class" stadiums in the country....and if (because I'm only speculating here) that's the case then we'd be insane to build one of our own wouldn't we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcrawfor Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 The renovation of Goodison could easily cost more than a new stadium. It is typically far more expensive to build onto a building that already exists, especially in a stadium case where the entire stadium would have to be updated, inspected and remodeled. The same thing is happening at my school right now, the University of Oregon. We're currently building a $220m stadium to replace the existing Mac Court (built in 1920.) The argument that it could have been renovated was brought up and proved to be far more expensive than the new one, all things considered (future revenue, maintenance, future expansions and construction.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted November 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 That's about right Mark....it's from the planning application document dated November 2007. http://inquiry.knowsley.gov.uk/Core%20Documents/CD%201.6.1%20Proposed%20Stadium%20EFC.pdf 8.13 The cost of the proposed new stadium that is the subject of this planning application is in the region of £130m at September 2007 prices, including the basic level of IT and fit out required to achieve appropriate operating licences. This would deliver what can be regarded as an iconic and attractive well specified mid-range Premier League football stadium. Funny how everyone has picked up on "mid-range" as the main description rather than "iconic, attractive well specified." Maybe it's "mid-range" purely because it's not the same size as the Emirates or Old Trafford? Possibly those two plus Wembley are the only "World Class" stadiums in the country....and if (because I'm only speculating here) that's the case then we'd be insane to build one of our own wouldn't we? Yeh thats a very good point... But to me its almost a contradiction in terms. Mid range says average quality, yet iconic and attractive says high quality. I dont know exactly what they mean by it and im not sure too many people do tbh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcrawfor Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Yeh thats a very good point... But to me its almost a contradiction in terms. Mid range says average quality, yet iconic and attractive says high quality. I dont know exactly what they mean by it and im not sure too many people do tbh. I think when they say mid-range, they really mean to say mid-sized. But that's just my guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Funny how everyone has picked up on "mid-range" as the main description rather than "iconic, attractive well specified." Maybe it's "mid-range" purely because it's not the same size as the Emirates or Old Trafford? Possibly those two plus Wembley are the only "World Class" stadiums in the country....and if (because I'm only speculating here) that's the case then we'd be insane to build one of our own wouldn't we? i think its because we wear the latin on our badge that makes us want better mike. but that second paragraph is a very very good point. its still a no from me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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