Avinalaff Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 8 out of 26 managers have won honours. Moyes is the the 4th highest manager in terms of games managed in our history. He is the highest match tenured manager not to win honours. It all means nothing to me. In moyes time at everton he has achieved the gratitude of fans for stabilising an old tired team, but guess what, history is repeating itself. I would have loved for him to win silver but with the joke of a board he has had behind him I do sympathise. I think the above is a more damning criticism of kenwright and co. more than moyes to be honest. In my opinion he should have aired his issues with the lack of funding and concerns relating to the business operation of the club. Name the 8 please Haf. You can't count the committee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 8 out of 26 managers have won honours. Moyes is the the 4th highest manager in terms of games managed in our history. He is the highest match tenured manager not to win honours. It all means nothing to me. In moyes time at everton he has achieved the gratitude of fans for stabilising an old tired team, but guess what, history is repeating itself. I would have loved for him to win silver but with the joke of a board he has had behind him I do sympathise. I think the above is a more damning criticism of kenwright and co. more than moyes to be honest. In my opinion he should have aired his issues with the lack of funding and concerns relating to the business operation of the club. All Moyes needed was that one big signing a season like he got in Johnson, Yak and Felli, they kept things ticking over and improved our quality season on season - this stopped after Felli and we all know what's happened since Lescott left. The money wasted on Bily has had a big effect on what we see now in my opinion - if that money had been spent on someone like Adam Johnson we would have had money left over and I'd imagine our playing style would have evolved in a more positive way - that's all speculative though - meh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Name the 8 please Haf. You can't count the committee. Just go on wiki like haf probably did. You probably have to mention commitee anyway haven't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Name the 8 please Haf. You can't count the committee. 7 out of 25, Excluding the committee. I would still class them as management however. No different to back room staff to a certain extent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 All Moyes needed was that one big signing a season like he got in Johnson, Yak and Felli, they kept things ticking over and improved our quality season on season - this stopped after Felli and we all know what's happened since Lescott left. The money wasted on Bily has had a big effect on what we see now in my opinion - if that money had been spent on someone like Adam Johnson we would have had money left over and I'd imagine our playing style would have evolved in a more positive way - that's all speculative though - meh! Moyes really did have us playing fantastically well at one point. We were playing so well, we all thought the following season we would challenge, but we didn't sign anybody, and the momentum was lost. Injuries didn't help either, but had we had the money to add to that squad, we could have been like Spurs are now. That's how close Moyes came. Anybody who says he doesn't know how to get a team playing football is a bit naive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Just go on wiki like haf probably did. You probably have to mention commitee anyway haven't you? Yeah, after supporting our club for 40+ years I'd never checked the history of our managers before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) To be honest I could have made the stats more critical of moyes by ignoring The 5 managers that took charge of less than 20 games and exclude kendalls other 2 spells which would make the ratio a lot more critical. Again the point was to discredit the fact that only 7 managers have won something, when in comparison to number of managers we have had, and his tenure - he should have had some return, As I said, if he was supported financially (when getting 4th place) he may have got us into the mega bucks of the champs league. The second biggest failing of the kenwright regime was the champs league qualifiers. We had a golden opportunity to add some real quality that would have been achievable. Edited January 7, 2012 by Hafnia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Yeah, after supporting our club for 40+ years I'd never checked the history of our managers before. Why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) Why not? I was joking C. The very fact we had no managers for years was a talking point long ago. If you asked me who all the managers were over the years, I wouldn't be able to name more than 10, if that, but I'd always remember the 20 or so (edited out. It was actually 35-39 after checking) years we didn't have one. It's something that stands out in our history. Edited January 7, 2012 by Avinalaff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) Actually, my memory of events is very flawed. It was nothing like 20 years. Why I thought that I don't know. Just checked here http://www.efchistor...k/Managers2.htm and it seems it was only for about 4 or 5 years. Edited January 7, 2012 by Avinalaff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Perhaps we need to get relegated lol. Thomas H McIntosh - July 1919 - May 1935.Thomas McIntosh had made a name for himself as secretary with Doncaster Rovers and Middlesbrough were he had nine successful years. A large, jovial, former schoolmaster he was soon to establish a vital link between the boardroom and the players, enjoying the trust of both. Everton were finding things difficult following the resumption of football after the First World War was over and had eight years of mediocrity with two close escapes from relegation, in 1921-22 and 1926-27. However there was to be one shining light in the semi gloom of the period, the signing of William Ralph Dean. Prompted by William Cuff, who had returned to the club, McIntosh signed Dean in 1924 from Tranmere Rovers for a fee of £3,000. McIntosh oversaw Everton's third league championship in 1927-28, the season Dixie Dean scored his 60 League goals. What happened next surprised everyone, the following season Everton finished 18th and the next were relegated for the first time. The club were only to play one season in the Second division and were promoted straight away, scoring a massive 121 goals in doing so. The next two seasons were as much a success as the previous had been a disappointment. On returning to the top flight Everton stormed to their fourth title success and then in 1933 went on to win the FA Cup for the second time. So in 6 years Everton had won the league, been relegated, then promoted, won the league again and then won the FA Cup, quite a breathe taking period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 To be honest I could have made the stats more critical of moyes by ignoring The 5 managers that took charge of less than 20 games and exclude kendalls other 2 spells which would make the ratio a lot more critical. Again the point was to discredit the fact that only 7 managers have won something, when in comparison to number of managers we have had, and his tenure - he should have had some return, As I said, if he was supported financially (when getting 4th place) he may have got us into the mega bucks of the champs league. The second biggest failing of the kenwright regime was the champs league qualifiers. We had a golden opportunity to add some real quality that would have been achievable. Why would you want to make the stats more critical? Kendall proved that no matter how well you do one year, there is no guarantee of finding success any more. For me, you need loads of luck, and I don't feel Moyes has had too much of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) This is pre-sales in the summer (and signings for some clubs)... Conclusions - money talks (see top 5), chopping and changing doesn't always work (see 6/7) and Wenger/Moyes have been incredible Premier League Managers but both need backing now as both clubs are on the slide (although if you believe rumours Wenger is backed but doesn't want it!) Edit: no surprises re. Blackburn and Bolton. Edited January 7, 2012 by c1982 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Why would you want to make the stats more critical? Kendall proved that no matter how well you do one year, there is no guarantee of finding success any more. For me, you need loads of luck, and I don't feel Moyes has had too much of it. Critical in terms of analysing tenure versus trophies versus previous managerial achievments. My job is as a senior analyst and I know quite well that you can manipulate them to send out whatever message it is that you want to (ignore counter stats, focus on the ones that fight your corner) - the club have been doing this for years! I think a manager does need an element of luck but most importantly he needs hunger. Kendall coming back was always bad IMO, Moyes may have been here too long without winning something and that circus upstairs have done nothing to give him the CV that he probably wants. He can't carry the tag of miracleworker much longer because he ain't. He is a master consolidator, spolier, disciplinarian, organiser - all admirable traits, but as a tactician he has been found out. He has a plan A, but no plan B or C when plan A goes wrong. I think in all honesty he is tired... the club is tired, it needs a 2 week holiday in the sun with a brand new wardrobe, makeover, lose some weight and get some confidence, but daddy kenwright has been flittering away money to loan sharks to pay for his gambling debts, it's back to blackpool, donkey rides and half an ice cream each. Being critical of Moyes is like being critical of Cahill - it doesn't feel right, but it is necessary if it is in the best interests of Everton F.C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flaminfox Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Because it is soooooo easy winning trophies with our kind of funding.. A joke of a statement, the guy has got us into europe many times against the odds and got us to an fa cuP final, you are just spoiled by the past thinking that he has to have one a trophy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Because it is soooooo easy winning trophies with our kind of funding.. A joke of a statement, the guy has got us into europe many times against the odds and got us to an fa cuP final, you are just spoiled by the past thinking that he has to have one a trophy So I take it you ignored the part where I said: In moyes time at everton he has achieved the gratitude of fans for stabilising an old tired team, but guess what, history is repeating itself. I would have loved for him to win silver but with the joke of a board he has had behind him I do sympathise. I think the above is a more damning criticism of kenwright and co. more than moyes to be honest. In my opinion he should have aired his issues with the lack of funding and concerns relating to the business operation of the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flaminfox Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 I was directing it to you i an just tired of people saying Moyes has done nothig and should be sacked, he is doing the best with what he has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 I was directing it to you i an just tired of people saying Moyes has done nothig and should be sacked, he is doing the best with what he has. Eureka. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalziel Kane Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 The fact remains Moyes has yet to win anything as manager in nearly 10 years in charge now, some people can't look beyond that. I'm fully aware of the accomplishments done in his time but no actual silver to show for it, lack of resources yes but we can't always use that as an excuse, I still insist this club will not again win any honors so long as the Scotsman remains in charge, there's other areas too we wish we could change but sometimes the buck stops with the manager. Many people see him as dour, stale and a spent force regardless of circumstances and the finer points of what he has achieved outside of actual trophies, I can see where they're coming from sometimes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flaminfox Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 The fact remains Moyes has yet to win anything as manager in nearly 10 years in charge now, some people can't look beyond that. I'm fully aware of the accomplishments done in his time but no actual silver to show for it, lack of resources yes but we can't always use that as an excuse, I still insist this club will not again win any honors so long as the Scotsman remains in charge, there's other areas too we wish we could change but sometimes the buck stops with the manager. Many people see him as dour, stale and a spent force regardless of circumstances and the finer points of what he has achieved outside of actual trophies, I can see where they're coming from sometimes And those people are idiots. These days money=trophies and there may be a few lucky cases such as Birmingham but in the end if you do not have a squad that is funded enough to be capable to win trophies then you simply cannot. David Moyes understands this and his built his squad around endurance and defense because endurance you can earn and defenders are cheaper than strikers and that is why his plan in games is defend and when they are tired go for the attack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanchesterCity Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) Talk to Newcastle fans Talk to Man City fans Waited YEARS for a trophy... a lot longer than Everton, and spent a lot of money trying.... so you can't really point a finger at Moyes as having underachieved or anything... he's done well. Given the resources Everton have had, I think it would be a real challenge to name another manager who would DEFINITELY have done better, and tricky to name one that PROBABLY would have done better. Wenger? Fergie? Mourinho? maybe, maybe not, but that's only 3 exceptional managers, and you were never in a position to recruit that sort of manager (in the last 20 years) The problems at Everton lie with the board. They have 80% of the materials needed to be competing at the very top and aren't doing so, and of the 20% they are lacking, other clubs have those missing elements too (new stadium, better location etc). I think all in all, putting your Everton hearts to one side and simply being realistic, funding for the team has been poor, and you've more then held your own given that. Funding has finally caught up with you (as it would do after a prolonged period of starvation) and you're starting to pay the price. Moyes MIGHT have protested more, but I expect he knew it would be futile. Any questions, anger, frustration etc really needs to be at the board asking how it can be that a top class club is struggling financially when it HASN'T been spending like idiots. IF Moyes was given money and didn't achieve, fair enough, show him the door. But not until then. I know at the moment, some are looking at poor Everton performances and turning their gaze to Moyes, in a belief that the team are actually quite good and he's not getting the best from them. I think this is slightly optimistic and suggest Everton as a team, just aren't that good any more, and the table is about right. I have no doubts that on a good day, Everton can put in some great performances, but on a bad day some lousy ones too. That's the marque of a mid-table team. Moyes cannot possibly have lost his footballing knowledge overnight, or become a lunatic and deliberately defensive manager. His choices MUST be part of a strategy that he believes to be the safest option for Everton. He's got a full season to get through, not a strong squad, and cannot afford to get into that bottom 8 dog fight towards the end of the season. I think he's looked at the squad, accepted that top 6 isn't realistic, and it's too risky to aim for and get it wrong. So he's gone for dull, boring and safe. Not a sexy choice, or a popular one, but perhaps he's doing his job.... securing Everton. BK is the problem. It's not money... Everton have good revenue and great stature. Somehow, and for some reason, a proportionate amount of money isn't staying at the club (let alone the squad). For this reason, one can ONLY blame the board. Nice chaps they may be. Lovers of Everton they may be. The right guys at the helm they are evidently not. The bottom line is the financial bottom line. That's all you need to read, and it condemns BK and Co. Edited January 7, 2012 by BlueSky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flaminfox Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Talk to Newcastle fans Talk to Man City fans Waited YEARS for a trophy... a lot longer than Everton, and spent a lot of money trying.... so you can't really point a finger at Moyes as having underachieved or anything... he's done well. Given the resources Everton have had, I think it would be a real challenge to name another manager who would DEFINITELY have done better, and tricky to name one that PROBABLY would have done better. Wenger? Fergie? Mourinho? maybe, maybe not, but that's only 3 exceptional managers, and you were never in a position to recruit that sort of manager (in the last 20 years) The problems at Everton lie with the board. They have 80% of the materials needed to be competing at the very top and aren't doing so, and of the 20% they are lacking, other clubs have those missing elements too (new stadium, better location etc). I think all in all, putting your Everton hearts to one side and simply being realistic, funding for the team has been poor, and you've more then held your own given that. Funding has finally caught up with you (as it would do after a prolonged period of starvation) and you're starting to pay the price. Moyes MIGHT have protested more, but I expect he knew it would be futile. Any questions, anger, frustration etc really needs to be at the board asking how it can be that a top class club is struggling financially when it HASN'T been spending like idiots. IF Moyes was given money and didn't achieve, fair enough, show him the door. But not until then. I know at the moment, some are looking at poor Everton performances and turning their gaze to Moyes, in a belief that the team are actually quite good and he's not getting the best from them. I think this is slightly optimistic and suggest Everton as a team, just aren't that good any more, and the table is about right. I have no doubts that on a good day, Everton can put in some great performances, but on a bad day some lousy ones too. That's the marque of a mid-table team. Moyes cannot possibly have lost his footballing knowledge overnight, or become a lunatic and deliberately defensive manager. His choices MUST be part of a strategy that he believes to be the safest option for Everton. He's got a full season to get through, not a strong squad, and cannot afford to get into that bottom 8 dog fight towards the end of the season. I think he's looked at the squad, accepted that top 6 isn't realistic, and it's too risky to aim for and get it wrong. So he's gone for dull, boring and safe. Not a sexy choice, or a popular one, but perhaps he's doing his job.... securing Everton. BK is the problem. It's not money... Everton have good revenue and great stature. Somehow, and for some reason, a proportionate amount of money isn't staying at the club (let alone the squad). For this reason, one can ONLY blame the board. Nice chaps they may be. Lovers of Everton they may be. The right guys at the helm they are evidently not. The bottom line is the financial bottom line. That's all you need to read, and it condemns BK and Co. Thank you I think people need an outsiders view to open their eyes to how lucky we are to have won so much, been able to be in the first division for this long, and have such a good manager that knows what to do with what he has.. We will win something soon enough and hopefully it will be with David Moyes. COYB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 The fact remains Moyes has yet to win anything as manager in nearly 10 years in charge now, some people can't look beyond that. I'm fully aware of the accomplishments done in his time but no actual silver to show for it, lack of resources yes but we can't always use that as an excuse, I still insist this club will not again win any honors so long as the Scotsman remains in charge, there's other areas too we wish we could change but sometimes the buck stops with the manager. Many people see him as dour, stale and a spent force regardless of circumstances and the finer points of what he has achieved outside of actual trophies, I can see where they're coming from sometimes This in a time where generally the teams with the most money win the silerwear... we're skint... in Moyes' time he's been outspent by all but every other Premier League team... he's come bloody close to silver, that in itself is an achievement(ish). The frustrating tactics and recent negativity can be blamed on Moyes in part but he's had nothing to freshen things up. Add to this, as we stand: - the youngsters aren't quite ready - Gueye, Vellios, Coleman (to some extent), Barkley (many believe he is, I'd like to think he is). - some players 'best days' are behind them - Saha, Neville, Cahill, Distin, Jags, maybe Osman too - our best players haven't been 100% fit or in and out with niggles - Fellaini, Rodwell, Drenthe - some simply aren't good enough - Bily, Straq The plain fact is... WE NEED INVESTMENT... every Evertonian knows this, including those in charge of the club! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanchesterCity Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 I knew it! you're Moyes' and Rooney's secret love child!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalziel Kane Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 This in a time where generally the teams with the most money win the silerwear... we're skint... in Moyes' time he's been outspent by all but every other Premier League team... he's come bloody close to silver, that in itself is an achievement(ish). The frustrating tactics and recent negativity can be blamed on Moyes in part but he's had nothing to freshen things up. Add to this, as we stand: - the youngsters aren't quite ready - Gueye, Vellios, Coleman (to some extent), Barkley (many believe he is, I'd like to think he is). - some players 'best days' are behind them - Saha, Neville, Cahill, Distin, Jags, maybe Osman too - our best players haven't been 100% fit or in and out with niggles - Fellaini, Rodwell, Drenthe - some simply aren't good enough - Bily, Straq The plain fact is... WE NEED INVESTMENT... every Evertonian knows this, including those in charge of the club! In recent years teams like Portsmouth, Cardiff, Stoke and Birmingham have reached (and won) cup finals and it's nothing to do with investment or loads of cash, it's merely the manager put together a side that was workmanlike, an excellent team ethic and went out with the intent to win, that's one thing Moyes lacks the most, You don't have to be swimming in money or have the best players in order to succeed at least in terms of domestic cup tourneys, just go out with a determination to win. I've seen before how we have played opposition teams in such games and players just seemed to wave a big fuck off white flag and Moyes really couldn't be arsed and a result Toffee forums had a field day with responses, I should know, I was involved myself. When Royle won our last trophy, it wasn't with investment, it was with a group of players who rolled up their sleeves and got on with it, showed some heart and desire, also the new manager at the time instilled some new belief although in the end it was short lived Yes, we need investment, we need a giant kick up the ass truth be known, I know Moyes isn't culpable for every disaster and misfortune we've had, but the man takes his share of the blame, pity really as we had a result today even though it was nothing great but it was some progress made and I'd rather concentrate on that and some good done rather than comment all and any that is wrong with the club at the moment but I feel you just can't steer around it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 In recent years teams like Portsmouth, Cardiff, Stoke and Birmingham have reached (and won) cup finals and it's nothing to do with investment or loads of cash, it's merely the manager put together a side that was workmanlike, an excellent team ethic and went out with the intent to win, that's one thing Moyes lacks the most, You don't have to be swimming in money or have the best players in order to succeed at least in terms of domestic cup tourneys, just go out with a determination to win. I've seen before how we have played opposition teams in such games and players just seemed to wave a big fuck off white flag and Moyes really couldn't be arsed and a result Toffee forums had a field day with responses, I should know, I was involved myself. We've made a cup final too! Birmingham and Pompy are both now facing the reality of spending beyond their means!!! They both spent big! Football is very different now in comparison to Royles EFC days. Although Blackburn arguably bought the title that year! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalziel Kane Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 We won at time when it was chalk and cheese from today, ok there was one or two areas where clubs were dependant on big bucks and helping hands in order to succeed but nothing like the extent of today. For those old enough to remember teams won trophies simply because they had a damn fine manager and fine team work mentality, everybody pulled their weight and played for each other, The Shite were a major example of this throughout the 1970/80s as one example as much as it pains me to say it. Nowadays it's all these fucking arabs and oil barons coming over and taking control and clubs (some who were almost non existent beforehand) suddenly coming to the fore and grabbing attention. It's not the way I would have wanted Everton Football club to go at some point in time, but I feel we have to go down a similar avenue, we have little choice some would feel, the days when clubs could succeed without investments or helping hands and succeed alone with good players and managers and not much else is slowly becoming a thing of the past. Sadly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanchesterCity Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 Money has always been a key factor in success, and favours the large city teams over small town ones. With the advent of Sky, the money issue has simply been magnified and the gulf even bigger. When a team can dominate a league for 20 years, there's something inherenty 'unbalanced' about the competition. Money won't guarantee success, but it will improve the odds significantly... as Blackburn showed, Chelsea showed and City are starting to show. Those particular clubs made it more obvious because they spent a lot in a short time, whereas other clubs spent more over a long period, but still generally 'more' than the others. But Everton don't NEED a sugar daddy, they need good management who can manage the finances properly so that Moyes gets a fair crack of the whip proportionate the club that Everton are. That's my gripe with Everton's board. They're a top club, operating like a small one. The money HAS been going into the club, and disappearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalziel Kane Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 True that's it's not a life or death choice about new investment or takeover but it's one aspect that could seriously move the club forward even if maybe I'm not really keen on the idea, but for the good and future prosperity of the club maybe there's little alternative. Maybe I'll wait until this acutally goes ahead but in the meantime we can but discuss, I really don't know what's going to happen but something needs to be done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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