Plans for Premier League 'B' teams

[MikeO]

I am ranting because I, and all supporters of lower division sides, know that the teams we love are doomed if this proposal gives ahead. Everton already has one team, in the Premiership. Is that not enough for you? I guess you don't or don't want to see it. As for the idiot who claims that this is "good for home player development" I would ask him why don't the Premiership sides play these players in their first teams, as they used to do? You prefer to play Africans, Uruguayans, anybody but Englishmen. Why do your clubs want a monopoly on home grown talent, and then leave it to languish in your reserves? Why not let such players join teams that WILL pick them?

 

If Everton was faced with a similar catastrophic change you would also rant and be angry. The commission that produced this report had Danny Mills on it, what a testimony to to the intellectual ability of those who produced the report.

 

You're not answering my question.....why will people desert their teams if this were to go ahead? I don't understand the reasoning.

 

If you can make the point I'll be sympathetic....I was a season ticket holder at non league level for many years as a kid before my local team went out of business...I just don't understand your reasoning.

 

Will you (as I've already asked) stop supporting your local team if this happens? And if you won't why would anyone else?

[Notoleague3]

You're not answering my question.....why will people desert their teams if this were to go ahead? I don't understand the reasoning.

 

If you can make the point I'll be sympathetic....I was a season ticket holder at non league level for many years as a kid before my local team went out of business...I just don't understand your reasoning.

 

Will you (as I've already asked) stop supporting your local team if this happens? And if you won't why would anyone else?

I will have to stop supporting my team because it will no longer exist. If it did exist, I would have no interest whatsoever in seeing it play the reserve side of a bigger team in an alleged "league" game. Danny Mills rather insultingly said in the local Hartlepool paper a couple of dates ago that Hartlepool fans would rather see Hartlepool play Man Utd's reserves than Torquay. If he had actually asked Hartlepool fans what they wanted then he would have got a different view, just look at their forums the arrogance of this proposal is staggering, we want a proper pyramid structure not a training ground for the Premiership. What matters is what the fans of smaller teams want, we do not want this at any cost. Danny Mills can go hang.

[MikeO]

I will have to stop supporting my team because it will no longer exist. If it did exist, I would have no interest whatsoever in seeing it play the reserve side of a bigger team in an alleged "league" game. Danny Mills rather insultingly said in the local Hartlepool paper a couple of dates ago that Hartlepool fans would rather see Hartlepool play Man Utd's reserves than Torquay. If he had actually asked Hartlepool fans what they wanted then he would have got a different view, just look at their forums the arrogance of this proposal is staggering, we want a proper pyramid structure not a training ground for the Premiership. What matters is what the fans of smaller teams want, we do not want this at any cost. Danny Mills can go hang.

 

Why not? It wouldn't be an "alleged" league game, it'd be a game same as any other....I'm not saying that playing B teams would be more attractive than playing traditional rivals but I don't see how it would be less attractive....once a game's going you get behind your team no matter who the opposition is surely? And if you're right that the B teams would quickly all be promoted then in a few seasons you'd be back to normality anyway.

 

It works fine in many countries and I see no reason why it wouldn't here....I personally think you're mistaken in saying people would stop watching their clubs; as I said I was around non league as a lad and have followed various local clubs ever since as I've moved round the country, my local club is currently a southern league member, and I don't think you're giving the fans the credit they deserve for their levels of loyalty.

[Notoleague3]

Why not? It wouldn't be an "alleged" league game, it'd be a game same as any other....I'm not saying that playing B teams would be more attractive than playing traditional rivals but I don't see how it would be less attractive....once a game's going you get behind your team no matter who the opposition is surely? And if you're right that the B teams would quickly all be promoted then in a few seasons you'd be back to normality anyway.

 

It works fine in many countries and I see no reason why it wouldn't here....I personally think you're mistaken in saying people would stop watching their clubs; as I said I was around non league as a lad and have followed various local clubs ever since as I've moved round the country, my local club is currently a southern league member, and I don't think you're giving the fans the credit they deserve for their levels of loyalty.

Just have a look at this article to see how well it works in one other country. There is plenty of evidence about its negatve impact.

 

http://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/923-Europe/598-the-killer-bs

 

Sorry, but most fans want to see their clubs play real teams, not reserve teams. Would you like to see Everton play Real Madrid Reserves in a "league"? And you still haven't answered my point about why Premiership clubs want to destroy a pyramid structure that works, that provides real competition and hope for fans. Isn't having a team playing in the Premiership enough for you? I guess you want to take over other leagues too. The world you propose would create a Mickey Mouse league that the fans of lower division teams just do not want. Just look at the forums of league 1, 2 and conference clubs, universal hostility to this proposal. Ignore the fans' opinions if you want, that is the arrogance that we expect from premiership clubs. Look at AFC Wimbledon, who had to fight over several years to get their team in the League. With Dyke's proposal, at a swoop 10 (20 in time I am sure) B teams who have not earned the right are just dropped into a new League.

 

This is all a bit like Tesco, Sainsbury's, Asda taking over every town centre, driving the small shops out of business. You can justify it on some grounds, but it destroys variety and makes us all poorer.

[MikeO]

Just have a look at this article to see how well it works in one other country. There is plenty of evidence about its negatve impact.

 

http://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/923-Europe/598-the-killer-bs

 

Sorry, but most fans want to see their clubs play real teams, not reserve teams. Would you like to see Everton play Real Madrid Reserves in a "league"? And you still haven't answered my point about why Premiership clubs want to destroy a pyramid structure that works, that provides real competition and hope for fans. Isn't having a team playing in the Premiership enough for you? I guess you want to take over other leagues too. The world you propose would create a Mickey Mouse league that the fans of lower division teams just do not want. Just look at the forums of league 1, 2 and conference clubs, universal hostility to this proposal. Ignore the fans' opinions if you want, that is the arrogance that we expect from premiership clubs. Look at AFC Wimbledon, who had to fight over several years to get their team in the League. With Dyke's proposal, at a swoop 10 (20 in time I am sure) B teams who have not earned the right are just dropped into a new League.

 

This is all a bit like Tesco, Sainsbury's, Asda taking over every town centre, driving the small shops out of business. You can justify it on some grounds, but it destroys variety and makes us all poorer.

 

Going to have to leave this....I just don't understand the reasoning behind any of your points. Why would it be a Mickey Mouse league? What has Wimbledon's history got to do with it? Why would the premier league want to destroy the pyramid structure? Why would you stop supporting your team?

 

So many holes in your argument....it's just a knee jerk reaction to change; if it happens it'll be the norm within a very few seasons and people will go on supporting their clubs at whatever level they happen to be at as they always have.

[Notoleague3]

Going to have to leave this....I just don't understand the reasoning behind any of your points. Why would it be a Mickey Mouse league? What has Wimbledon's history got to do with it? Why would the premier league want to destroy the pyramid structure? Why would you stop supporting your team?

 

So many holes in your argument....it's just a knee jerk reaction to change; if it happens it'll be the norm within a very few seasons and people will go on supporting their clubs at whatever level they happen to be at as they always have.

Have you even read the article that I attached? I think you don't want to listen to anything I have said. Let me put it very simply then, supporters of lower league sides and their clubs will not accept these proposals under any circumstances. Why? Just look at what would happen:

 

Year 1

League 3 is formed, 10 Conference sides, 10 Premiership Reserve teams. Fourteen Conference sides are therefore effectively relegated further away from Leagues 1and 2 at a swoop. The 10 Conference sides in League 3 can now "look forward" to home games against the ten reserve sides (the majority of their home games) with no away fans attending. No atmosphere, no banter, lower crowds, no prospect whatsoever of TV interest in the game (Halifax v Stoke City Reserves? Come on!).

 

Consequence of year 1 - the 10 former conference sides couldn't compete with the Premiership Reserve sides' resources, two of the Reserve Sides finish top and are promoted. The impact of year 1 on the finances of the 10 former Conference sides is disastrous, lost gate money, disenchanted fans, no prospect of promotion until all the Reserve sides have gone up (5 years of this!). 1 or 2 former Conference sides go bust.

 

Year 2

2 Reserve sides in League 2, both promoted to League 1.

 

Consequence of year 2 - Limited prospects for promotion now for League 2 sides (they also can't compete with Premiership resources) with years of this decay to follow. Fans become disenchanted.

More former Conference sides in financial difficulty as the second year of a lot of home games with no away fans, no atmosphere at games, no banter, no prospect of promotion continues. More go bust.

 

Year 3

2 Reserve sides in League 1, their final destination. They of course will finish top, denying promotion to other sides. The Championship sides will love this, as the sides that are due to be promoted cannot go up (no Reserve sides will be allowed in the Championship).

 

Consequence of Year 3 - the Championship begins to ossify, no relegation for years to come. League 1 and League 2 supporters don't bother going to games, nothing to fight for as no/limited promotion prospects. No away fans for home games against Reserve sides, decay begins. Some clubs on the edge financially.

 

Subsequent years

The Championship ossifies, League 1 and 2 non Reserve league sides' fans resent lack of promotion, lack of atmosphere at home games and begin to stay away. The damage to the former Conference sides in League 3 has already been done.

 

The Premiership sides who don't have a B team in the League demand entry too. The process goes around again.

 

Consequence, Dyke and his hare brained scheme have destroyed a League pyramid structure that has given fans entertainment and good football for many years. Creating a competitive Premiership Reserve League NOW would be far better and cause far less damage.

 

And what is all this for? To make England better? Well it won't, England haven't competed on the international scene well for years. The problem is lack of coaching, lack of facilities (who sold off school playing fields?), inappropriate approaches to schoolboy football that crush future stars, short termism by Premiership sides. By the last comment I mean that Premiership fans and owners demand instant success, so the home grown talent doesn't get a chance. Eventually the home talent leaves, their ambition crushed. And if you seriously think that the League 3 proposals will develop home talent then you want your head read.

 

In short the solution to England's failure is not League 3. The causes are complex, but blame lies at the door of the useless, incompetent FA, stuffed full of men with blazers who love to go on junkets. It also lies with the greed of the Premiership and the Governments who sold the playing fields that our kids used to use.

[Ant1979]

One thing I would say on this is that we can't be compared to Spain, etc where they use B teams in lower leagues. Our lower leagues are exceptionally well supported when you think about it, the crowds are much better than lower leagues in other countries. This proposal would benefit premier league clubs only in my opinion, not the game as a whole. And as others have said I don't see how it would measurably improve the progression of our young players either

[Hoof_It_Nev]

Something that I can't find the answer to - regarding the B teams won't be able to get promoted to the Championship. Surely this doesn't mean no-one gets promoted? Doesn't it mean 3rd and 4th would get promoted? If not, I agree then it's a bit silly.

[Hoof_It_Nev]

We're also assuming that the B teams will shoot to the top of League 1 - I don't think it would be as easy as most people are assuming.

[Cornish Steve]

The more I think this over, the more skeptical I'm becoming.

 

1) What's to stop top teams from moving players between their A and B teams at will? There would need to be some kind of minimum period for which players must stay with one team or the other, otherwise it's open to abuse.

 

2) The restrictions on foreign players is simply stupid. The English league is the best in the world for many reasons, and one of them is that we get to see and develop the best talent from around the world. The moment we impose "import quotas", the more quality will suffer.

 

3) While not agreeing with everything, I take some of the points made by NoToLeague3. The proposal helps premier league teams and hurts lower league teams. Any proposal worth its salt should benefit all teams.

 

So, I'm going back to the idea of strategic links between teams and the loosening of loan rules between them. To my mind, this circumvents all three problems.

[Lowensda]

The more I think this over, the more skeptical I'm becoming.

 

1) What's to stop top teams from moving players between their A and B teams at will? There would need to be some kind of minimum period for which players must stay with one team or the other, otherwise it's open to abuse.

 

 

The old man raised teh same issue, but surely they're work it so that the teams would act as normal club sides and have to go through the current, standing loan rules. Say a loan is a minumum of 3 months, so the parent club cant just recall a player when it wants.

 

It works for cups and important matches. Without those rules, who's to say City wouldn't send their first 11 to win and title deciding game?

[Ant1979]

The old man raised teh same issue, but surely they're work it so that the teams would act as normal club sides and have to go through the current, standing loan rules. Say a loan is a minumum of 3 months, so the parent club cant just recall a player when it wants.

 

It works for cups and important matches. Without those rules, who's to say City wouldn't send their first 11 to win and title deciding game?

Got to admit I haven't read up enough about this, it will be interesting to see what comes out. I guess if they are classed as youth teams then any of the players could be called back to the first team at any time? But if they are classed as reserve teams then the players would have to be included in the 25 man PL squad or else they couldn't play anyway? I have just assumed that the first team could call up a B team player at any time, is that how it works in spain? Then again their B teams are reserves and the youth is C teams.. I think!?! So it's a bit different.

 

Damn I've just blagged my own head there with too many questions :/