Hafnia

Moyes accepting our history is a bit like going out with one of George Clooneys ex girlfriends - as much as you try and impress them you just know you can't reach that level.

I think we are on the same page and I applaud your outlook for a 26 year old fan (not patronising) - the appathy among many younger generation fans is a real issue we need to address. The same way that I would applaud a United fan of the same age who doesn't believe that United are too massive to be a team that goes a few years without winning something. Our history is something to be immensely proud of and should be protected. The media perception which was cultivated by Moyes in his time needs addressing and our brand of football is one way to do that. As a brand he has negatively impacted us. WE ARE EVERTON - not Fulham. 10th to 12th is unacceptable for a club like us, just like wearing a brace is unacceptable for one of the Osmonds - but if it gives you the straight gleaming set of nashers in a year or so then its a burden worth having. Under Moyes we were posing for photos with our mouths closed.

I honestly feel the best barometer isn't Everton fans themselves but other fans. I am getting begrudging respect from all over the place. What we are seeing is work in progress and I like everything I am seeing. We are a couple of players away from a team that will seriously challenge - the goalscoring striker being the main ingrediant.

This is it a nutshell. One of the greatest injustices apart from that team not playing in the european cup is the fact that it is just forgotten. People go on about the Arsenal invicibles or the united treble winning team - the Everton 84-85 team was up there as the best. It wasn't because we had an expensively assembled team, it was because the had everything, they were men who could fight, players who could outplay and together they had a spirit I have not seen since. Anyone who remembers that side should be ashamed of themselves if they think what we are seeing with Martinez is some sort of ineffective pretty brand of football. We are on our way to try and replicate that set up.

We just didn't - simple as that Matt. That's not even a judgement call - look back at matchday posts, seriously the great perfromances were 1 in 5 - pretty much like Fellaini's beast performances. Its amazing how the exceptions become the rule. Look at Martinez use of substitues compared to Moyes. The change in our club is the same as my golf swing. I could shoot in the 90's with my old swing every time, to get better I have had to unlearn everything - that means now I have the potential to shoot in the 70's but have to suffer the round where I shoot in the 100's because the new swing has it teething problems. In order to make top 4 which is ultimately the only way we can progress to the next level - we need to be able to beat the top 4 teams. Under Moyes that wasn't going to happen. Our style meant that in those games we came short near every time - under Martinez we have a chance of beating them because we retain the ball better. The ability to retain the ball and turn it into goals is the next step.

How old are you? "worst comments for a while" - that in itself is the worst comment in itself. Do you actually read the rest of other peoples posts? I take the time to quantify my statements and you just come out with the usual juvenile nonsense. Grow up. Use the forum to exhange debate, not to antogonize other posters. To make allowances for your I.Q - 10th-12th was acceptable for me in the sense of allowing for the change in footballing principles that will reap reward in the long run. A little bit like throwing moss killer on a lawn - it will look worse for a period in order to look better in the long run... understand it a bit better now?

was just about to post that. Yep, totally agree with that article - extremely well written and touches on the generational aspect - which I think is the other way around to be honest. Younger fans unlucky enough to have supported the club through the walter smith era who didn't see us win leagues are more pragamatic than the 38+ fans who seen us batter the likes of Man United 5-0 at home on the way to winning the league. I'm a footballing snob and i'm proud of it.

Not directed at you, but if it seems to have created the debate then its relevant. I don't think there is a right nor wrong. Its about beliefs. I was bought into Everton at a time we played the best football the club has possibly seen - that is now my DNA as an Everton fan. I'm not going to accept the Moyes principles - that is not Everton for me. If you were bought into Everton at the time of Walker, Royles brief reign and then the Kendall/Smith demise, then I understand the acceptance of Moyes appreciation - but I don't believe its right. Accepting his principles is an insult to the traditions of the club. My acceptance of Moyes to a degree has turned into bitterness in the way that things are now transpiring that he was denying our history as some sort of Albatross he could do without. Isn't it great that one of the most cutting chants "you've never won f%^$ all" can't be aimed at us... Look at the faces of the Newcastle fans when that is hammered at them - there is no come back. We may not win anything with Martinez - but I honestly think our chances are massively improved. Moyes was like a boxer who wanted to go the distance, Martinez is the one with the punchers chance who will try and knock the other one out.

Agree, we need that icing on top of a lovely cake that is being baked. If we had one of those 3 players we would be top 4 - no question at all.

I have taken it easy on kenwright purely for the fact he made the best managerial acquisition he could have made as a chairman. However... the right manager needs the right level of backing. I'm not unrealistic, I know we have had to work hard to recover the financial mess we were in and moyes deserves his credit for that - there, i've said it. This next window is going to be huge for us. I don't want to hear soundbites from RM saying BK is supportive etc etc - we've worn that t shirt for too long and the fans don't need to hear someone else towing the party line. I expect to see us go for a striker with all the tools needed to take us to the next level that Liverpool are currently realising - pace, intelligence, finishing.

Unfortunately its the hope that kills you. I hoped that moyes would evolve when he was our manager. I mentioned somewhere that he was 80% of the way to being a world class manager, his inablilty/stubborness to address the 20% that made him mediocre was the frustration. The glass ceiling above our heads, was the glass ceiling above Moyes head. His inability to work with players of the likes of drenthe, VDM, kagawa, barkley, mata etc is a microcosm of his managerial traits. The best managers know how to use the talented players. Average managers prefer to use players they know what to expect from. This is what seperates the winners from the grafters.

For me it seems that many fans are a bit hesitant to accept the fact that under the previous stewardship we were and always going to be 5th-10th candidates. If that was fine and however we achieved that wasn't an issue then Moyes was the man. I get that. It seems now that too many are using the lull that we are experiencing as some for of justfication in their tentative feelings towards a relegated manager taking the managers role. For me I think its ridiculously short sighted. I would have accepted 10th-12th under Martinez as a trade off for the newer possesion based brand of football we are seeing. I can't handle the pragmatic attitude many fans have adopted because of an 11 year brain washing process that has many fans thinking that what we had was the best we can expect. We have a new manager that dares to dream, dares to go for the win away from home at top 4 clubs... Just look at the way other clubs view us now! They don't think "plucky old Everton, lets try and keep Baines and Pienaar quiet and hope fellaini has a quiet game". Look at the injuries we have had to put up with! Baines, Jags, Barkley, Deulofeu, Lukaku, Coleman, Distin, Gibson, Kone, Oviedo.... its amazing we have even stayed in contention for so long - apply the same restrictions to any of the teams above us and it all comes down to strength in depth - which we haven't got. Anyone who considers looking at comparing "statistics" of our new manager needs to find one that measures "BOTTLE" - lets say a % uplift in the amount of belief that the players have in going to the likes of the emirates, old trafford, stamford bridge and having a go... I work with stats every day and trust me - there isn't one to measure this. Just enjoy watching a bright young manager input his fresh ideologies on a group of players who were zombified into playing a brand of football that won few admirers. Go on other forums and see the kudos we are getting - speak to Liverpool fans and ask what they think of our new manager and team... Sometimes I think some people are just too desperate to justify their loyalty to a manager who had none for us - get over it. He will be proven to be the manager that he really is. Just like Martinez will be proven to be the manager he really is.

Is it safe to say that he's a really poor James McCarthy yet Bill?

Yeah he's just a shit Joe Allen. He isn't on YouTube either with a collection of step overs and drag backs.

After a few years it wasn't about what we were finishing under Moyes, it was his brand of football firmly pigeon holed us in the 5th to 8th category. Under Martinez are seeing progressive traits whilst getting similar points which is exactly what I've been hoping for. I would have sacrificed a few places to see that happen. The longer term potential under Martinez is so much better than we could have hoped for under Moyes glass ceiling mentality. We are like the footballing tiger woods, we have a new swing and when it beds in we will see the results.

Look at the performance, we have gone away to arsenal, spurs, Chelsea, United and imposed our style of football. Some naivety has cost us against Chelsea and spurs, add in a quality striker and we are looking good. I'm very pleased overall with our progress.

Spurs Rolling teams over??? Not really no. Man United looking very balanced??? They beat palace and looked anything but convincing. Any days where you think "I'm really enjoying this season"

Anyone who has a question of what McCarthy does for us, judt watch that game again.

£5m tops. Needs sorting out too, he's lost.

Go and troll somewhere else. It's a decent forum and knob heads usually get the message or banned in the end...

Normally just takes a dick head or two to throw it out of kilter. You would think we have gone downhill the way some are behaving. They will Piss off when they get bored.

I actually think this idiots a wum.

McCarthy

Only part of it was in reference to you, don't get so uppity, after all if I said it it probably doesn't make it so... Oh blue, you are so funny. Ha ha lol. Funny shit you come out with etc etc.

So you say I'm lying? You wouldn't know if i was or wasn't but most members on here have known me long enough to know I'm not the sort to spout shite. It's all legit. Now jog on...