Should cheating in football be accepted as 'part of the game'

[Matt]

awful defending by Chile

 

On the Robben note, he is an excellent player but, like so many others, prefers to cheat rather than act with some class

[MC11]

awful defending by Chile

 

On the Robben note, he is an excellent player but, like so many others, prefers to cheat rather than act with some class

That shouldn't even come into it.

[Matt]

That shouldn't even come into it.

what shouldnt come into what?

 

Cheating shouldnt come into it? Agreed, hes got the skill to not have to cheat.

[Matt]

case and point within a minute

[MC11]

It has no bearing on how good a player he is...at all.

[Matt]

It has no bearing on how good a player he is...at all.

errr, yes it does. Anyone who cheats shows a lack of respect for the game not to mention a poor mentality. Physical attributes, ok no impact. But a player is more than just his physical attributes.

[MC11]

errr, yes it does. Anyone who cheats shows a lack of respect for the game not to mention a poor mentality. Physical attributes, ok no impact. But a player is more than just his physical attributes.

Why because he dives? Not the first, won't be the last. So what's your thoughts on Henry, Maradona? Are they not greats?

Edited June 23, 2014 by MiguelCotto

[Matt]

Ahh u just have a problem with Holland doing well. I see now

What?! Got no problem with Holland and have followed and defended them, since I had lived there for 4 years...

 

 

Why because he dives? Not the first, won't be the last. So what's your thoughts on Henry, Maradona? Are they not greats?

Ok, this is just about standards. Viera made the same argument; its part of the game so accept it and move on. Like fuck I will. It should absolutely not be accepted as part of the game

 

See what happens when he stays on his feet?

[Guest Nikica]

Cheating does not detract from a player's ability in the slightest. In fact it probably hinders them more than it helps them as they dive or play for a free-kick when they could go on (see Marcelo vs Mexico as an example). It's playing the percentages rather than doing what they do best - play football.

 

Thought it was a good game - fair play to both teams. Chile took the initiative for the first hour and got in behind a couple of times but wasted it and didn't create a clear cut chance. Holland's gameplan to sit back and hit on the break really worked at the end of the game - their height from a set-piece and Robben's pace on the break were the source of their goals.. However, we have to bear in mind that Holland only needed a draw today - if it were a knock-out game the dynamics may have been different.

 

Both teams have a good chance of making the QF, but based on hosting and history the smart money has to be on Brazil vs Chile (assuming they beat Cameroon well, as expected). Holland vs Mexico or Croatia look like intriguing ties as well. I'm really looking forward to the knockout stage of this tournament.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Nikica

[Matt]

Cheating does not detract from a player's ability in the slightest. In fact it probably hinders them more than it helps them as they dive or play for a free-kick when they could go on (see Marcelo vs Mexico as an example). It's playing the percentages rather than doing what they do best - play football.

if it hinders them, surely its detracting from their ability?

[Guest Nikica]

if it hinders them, surely its detracting from their ability?

 

What I meant is that it doesn't detract from their natural talent - it detracts from their game as they go down or dive when they could conceivably go on to score. That's why I used the phrase 'doesn't detract from their ability' rather than 'doesn't detract from their game'. It hinders their game but not their ability.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Nikica

[Matt]

 

What I meant is that it doesn't detract from their natural talent - it detracts from their game as they go down or dive when they could conceivably go on to score. That's why I used the phrase 'doesn't detract from their ability' rather than 'doesn't detract from their game'. It hinders their game but not their ability.

Ok, and I said the same thing. But it does hinder as you said, and since Cotto said "it has no baring on how good a player he is.. at all", this is what I was getting at - cheating affects the player.

 

Not to mention the bad example it sets and how it lessens the games integrity.

[Guest Nikica]

Ok, and I said the same thing. But it does hinder as you said, and since Cotto said "it has no baring on how good a player he is.. at all", this is what I was getting at - cheating affects the player.

 

Not to mention the bad example it sets and how it lessens the games integrity.

 

Well yeah, it's a redundant thing because no matter how talented someone is, they won't always show it if they make the wrong decision e.g. diving rather than shooting. But my point is that when they decide not to cheat, they still have the ability to fall back on. Talent isn't always the same thing as performing, as you're saying.

 

No doubt it lessens the game's integrity, but I've come to terms with it now. It will never be wholly eliminated from the game unless players were given straight red cards even for the most minor of dives - and even then I still think some would try it.

 

Talking about 'integrity' is pointless anyway, when the people who are in charge of creating the laws are more corrupt than the players.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Nikica

[MC11]

Does it shite.

[Guest Nikica]

Does it shite.

 

You could argue that the cheating evens oot because players are as likely to con the ref by gamesmanship as be penalised by it. For some players it is a hindrance, for others an advantage - depends how convincing and good at cheating they are.

 

It hindered Marcelo vs Mexico, but it benefited Maradona vs England, for example.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Nikica

[Matt]

 

Well yeah, it's a redundant thing because no matter how talented someone is, they won't always show it if they make the wrong decision e.g. diving rather than shooting. But my point is that when they decide not to cheat, they still have the ability to fall back on. Talent isn't always the same thing as performing, as you're saying.

 

No doubt it lessens the game's integrity, but I've come to terms with it now. It will never be wholly eliminated from the game unless players were given straight red cards even for the most minor of dives - and even then I still think some would try it.

I cant. I flat out refuse. I will stop following the game before I accept cheating being part of sport. The whole reason its gotten this bad is because people got used to it, and it escalated. Thats not a dig at you Nik, its a dig at us all.

 

Does it shite.

So completely unsurprising...

[MC11]

It has absolutely nothing to do with how good a player is. Maradona was a cheat and is thought of, by many, as the best ever! It has no baring on their ability at all.

[Guest Nikica]

I cant. I flat out refuse. I will stop following the game before I accept cheating being part of sport. The whole reason its gotten this bad is because people got used to it, and it escalated. Thats not a dig at you Nik, its a dig at us all.

 

So completely unsurprising...

 

I know it's not a dig, don't worry. And you're right of course - but I guess I have given up on any hope of it being stamped out to any significant degree. It's just too big a problem to solve unless drastic measures are taken - and as I say, there's still enough muppets in football to still give it a go even if said measures were in place.

[Guest Nikica]

It has absolutely nothing to do with how good a player is. Maradona was a cheat and is thought of, by many, as the best ever! It has no baring on their ability at all.

 

He's essentially saying that a brilliant player hinders himself by diving for a penalty when he could easily score or assist from the same position. Rather than ensuring the goal is scored with their excellence, they elect to give control of the situation to the referee. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. A great cheater can use it to become an even greater player - another player will make himself a worse player by being found out time after time.

 

Maradona is the greatest of all time, but on another day the ref sends him off for the Hand of God, he doesn't score the magnificent second goal, and Argentina go out of the tournament. Then people aren't saying 'Messi has to win the WC to be on the same rung as Maradona'. It worked for him that day in Mexico but he still gave the officials the opportunity to punish him. The fact they didn't is more to do with how coy he was than anything else, but a more astute official would have spotted it.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Nikica

[Matt]

 

I know it's not a dig, don't worry. And you're right of course - but I guess I have given up on any hope of it being stamped out to any significant degree. It's just too big a problem to solve unless drastic measures are taken - and as I say, there's still enough muppets in football to still give it a go even if said measures were in place.

And why cant they be? I dont get this at all. Well, I do - we have FIFA, UEFA and the FA in charge who are too chicken shit to do anything drastic to prevent the beautiful game becoming the beautiful con. We need something as big as introducing the offside rule in to get the game back on track.

 

It doesnt have to be automatic red - if the player cheats, give him a booking and if he does it again, a forced substitution. Doesnt detract from the game because teams remain even but the offending team are forced into a disadvantage. Just an idea, but it would soon start curbing the cheats in my opinion

 

anyway, different discussion for a different thread

Edited June 23, 2014 by Matt

[Guest Nikica]

And why cant they be? I dont get this at all. Well, I do - we have FIFA, UEFA and the FA in charge who are too chicken shit to do anything drastic to prevent the beautiful game becoming the beautiful con. We need something as big as introducing the offside rule in to get the game back on track.

 

It doesnt have to be automatic red - if the player cheats, give him a booking and if he does it again, a forced substitution. Doesnt detract from the game because teams remain even but the offending team are forced into a disadvantage. Just an idea, but it would soon start curbing the cheats in my opinion

 

anyway, different discussion for a different thread

 

Well, I agree. But the reason i have given up hope is because I know how corrupt and inept FIFA etc are, so it won't happen anyway.

[Matt]

Will copy the posts here from the World Cup thread...

[MikeO]

No.

[Sibdane]

I accept that "diving" is part of the game, but it's up to officials to make the right call.

 

One thing I like about refs in MLS is retrospective punishments for players who dive or embellish; they fine and embarrass the player.

 

I love it.

[Matt]

I accept that "diving" is part of the game, but it's up to officials to make the right call.

 

One thing I like about refs in MLS is retrospective punishments for players who dive or embellish; they fine and embarrass the player.

 

I love it.

that would be a good start!

[Guest Nikica]

While we are on the subject of officiating and the laws of the game, how about the introduction of a two strike rule for major decisions?

 

I say two strikes and not three because it's rare that a team needs three strikes or more in a game as I'm really referring to things like red cards, penalties etc, rather than disputing a corner or something. Besides, three strikes per team slows the game up too much probably. We obviously don't need it for goal-line decisions any more.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Nikica

[Sibdane]

I'm surprised they don't do it in the PL. It's like refs are untouchable across the pond.

 

And by "refs" in my first post, I really meant officiating panel. The decision usually comes a few days after the dive.

[Guest Nikica]

I'm surprised they don't do it in the PL. It's like refs are untouchable across the pond.

 

And by "refs" in my first post, I really meant officiating panel. The decision usually comes a few days after the dive.

 

Refs should always be permitted to explain their decisions as well.

[Sibdane]

 

Refs should always be permitted to explain their decisions as well.

 

I definitely agree with this. Why not explain?

[MikeO]

 

Refs should always be permitted to explain their decisions as well.

 

Or required to do so on occasion.