EFC-Paul

3 hours ago, Btay said:

I am on the fence with Kenny, slows the ball down so much when he has it at his feet. 

I agree but he's done well since being thrown in imo, puts a good shift in defends well and his delivery is good he'd be very dangerous if he had that extra yard of pace 

Played well for the most part 

Good balance in defending and breaking up play and moving the ball forward, Gana did well and fair play to Davies he looked decent in spells 

We could have won the game at a canter but our quality when it mattered let us down massively, conceded a decent goal but shouldn't have given him the chance to let his shot off then our heads went

It's frustrating as we are very close to being a decent side but we lack that quality upfront and when it matters from some of the lads 

16 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Just because he can score doesnt make him an attacking midfielder. He is a midfield that can defend and attack, he hasnt been a number 10 or winger throughout his career which is the point of my original response.

Your post does show that you are completely missing my points so there is no point going over it again. I agree with you to leave it there at least!

I don't even know what were debating tbh   so I agree that you agree mate

Fuck sake just square the ball 

The amount of United fans I know that can't bare him is frightening tbh 

Similar groans to when he was here, lazy poor touch can only finish if it's played right Infront of him etc 

We did well out of it all tbh 

18 hours ago, Bailey said:

You seem to be missing every point I am trying to put across, although maybe that is because I am not making them very well.

I mentioned FIFA because lots of players like to cram all their best players into positions they dont naturally play in because they want the best, quickest or strongest players in their team. Stats are evidence, you might not like them, but they cant be dismissed out of hand because they are fact. Its then a question of how you apply the stat and whilst I do look at stats its normally to back up or dismiss what I or someone else have seen visually.

From what I have seen Sigurdsson has largely played his career wide or as a number 10, which is also very similar to Bernard. Neither, as far as I am aware, have started more than half a dozen games deeper. I have seen Siggy play in central midfield twice for Iceland and both time he was poor.  They have never been known as genuine central midfielders and therefore I think my comparison to FIFA players is more than fair.

I might have misunderstood your 3rd paragraph. I thought you were talking about Bernard tracking back on a wing but now I think you are talking about Coutinho.

The Coutinho point doesnt stand because we play nothing like Liverpool. We dont hog possession like they do and win the ball back in the opposition half like they do and we wont spend as much time in the opposition half as they do. The OP I responded to also referred to playing both Siggy and Bernard ahead of 1 defensive midfielder. Countinho would have been playing along side two other workhorse midfielders such as Milner, Henderson, Wijnaldum etc. As I have said, in the right team and in the right games under the right tactics it might be possible but in our side right now its just madness.

I have not discounted Bernard purely for his size. He isnt a natural central midfielder, he has only just arrived in this league, AND he has no physical presence. Coutinho may also have been on the smaller side but her was still 8cm taller than Bernard and I would imagine at least half a stoe heavier AND he only played centrally once he had played in the league for 2 or 3 seasons. Mahrez played as a number 10 not as a central midfielder under Puel.

https://www.squawka.com/en/news/claude-puel-the-position-that-makes-mahrez-dangerous/1004134#vP5mj11QSJo6hd8h.97

I have said that Siggy is at his best when he is playing closer to other players whether that be from the left, right or through the central. With someone like Walcott you want them in some space to use their pace to create some separation or attack the opposition 1 v 1 whereas Sigurdsson needs to be in the thick of things so that he can link up with the strikers, wingers, 10's etc. I would like to see Siggy in a midfield with a holding player and a genuine central midfielder so that he is closer to the midfield two but with defensive cover and also free to break forward and able to link with the players ahead of him but that would mean no traditional number 10. You might be able to get away with Schneiderlin and Siggy together for short periods of time or in certain games but over the long term I am not convinced that they could form a winning partnership and against the big boys I think it would be a disaster. A combination of Siggy and any other fit central midfielder wouldn't work IMO and nor would Bernard and any central midfielder at the club.

 

 

I'm not missing any points Bailey I get what your saying but completely disagree with it 

To "try" and keep it short as the above is far to long winded...

I've not said Sigurdsson would play deeper I'm saying he has the ability to pick the ball up from deeper use his physicality and passing etc to a greater effect than what we've been served up so far simply put he has played that role and can play the role of a ball carrier he had that free reign at Swansea if you've never seen him pick the ball up from deeper and make forward runs for them your blind or have never watched them play, as you've said yourself in other threads he's better coming from a deeper position but really can't be arsed quoting it all 

Bernard has played central midfield many times and also as a creative central mid a position we've been lacking in for years so I'm not sure where you've got this winger stuff from 

All those players have similar slight statures you can't dismiss that even if he is slightly smaller  

Anyway I'll leave it there Sigurdsson to play the role of a ball carrying type midfielder and Bernard to be a creative central mid will it happen probably not would it be better than having two deeper mids with a non creative one trying to go forward Infront of them.... Definitely 

I'd put him straight in but keep Kenny at RB, I don't think he did much wrong against WH and put in some decent crosses 

Got a feeling if he plays Mina will score 

It doesn't add to debate for me personally as they can be misconstrued to suite whomever is posting them, the point I was making is you referenced a game when all the statistical analysis's is very FM based

I've no problems with it but when suggesting playing two players in positions they've already played in effectively as being like a game is a tad daft 

Who's the winger your referring to that I've not even mentioned or can't remember mentioning? Also the point of Coutinho stands imo and the others as that's what we'd become more of if we didn't persist with two deep midfielders and deployed a system similar to the ones suggested above 

He's a slight playmaker who did more than alright in this league and there's plenty of examples to choose from so to discount Bernard due to his size is ridiculous and premature, Mahrez played both out wide and centrally especially under Puel but the point being that type of player with that kind of build can do extremely well if used right 

You've even said yourself in multiple threads that Sigurdsson is better playing deeper which is what I've said 

Bailey with all due respect mate I know it's not FIFA but you quote stats and all sorts of information as if this is Football Manager that are in the main more akin to a simulated game, for me to suggest playing two midfielders in midfield in roles they have played for club and country isn'ttt in the slightest bit FIFA related mate 

Sigurdsson played behind the strikers with a fairly free rain in midfield where he's at his best that's purely what I'm suggesting he's not Flash but he's quicker and more agile than Tom and Morgan so will/could get about more and Bernard is far more technical and creative than either 

I do want Bernard to find space and create that's the type of player he is, was Countinho built like a brick shithouse did he track back and defend does Silva do it often did Mahrez and so on? They have a specific role for their skillset I see Bernard as no different he's that kind of player 

Gana is the best defensive midfielder for me he does what they are supposed to as you say tackling and intercepting but as we know there's no cohesion with having sub par midfielders to pick the ball up and move it forward. That's why I'd like to see him on his own playing deep doing what he's good at then playing it simple to someone who can carry the ball up field

Either way I hope something changes or clicks soon as we look dogshit  

7 minutes ago, nogs said:

Since when has Davies been considered a defensively minded midfielder? 

I agree with you though, at moment I'd be picking two of Sigurdsson, Bernard and Gomes when he's fit with Gana in front of the back four. Not because I think Gana is good enough but purely because I think he puts his foot in a lot more than Schneiderlin. I'm also hoping Gomes has something about him physically because I don't really see Bernard and Sigurdsson offering us enough defensively. 

The main issue though is we still have zero balance in the middle and we're not going to get very far until Gana and Schneiderlin are replaced by someone a lot better. 

Never said he was I was referring to Gana and Morgan in previous posts and I think it was Bailey mentioned Davies so threw all three into the mix

In my recent reply I'm talking about a central pairing non of them work so just throwing an idea of something that "might" out there 

I'll be honest as much as I'm looking forward to seeing what Gomes can offer without getting to carried away we should have brought in a player like N'Zonzi or N'Diaye to fill the void and offer competition 

Not about having two attacking midfielders it's about having one as said the other two can interchange prominently Sigurdsson sitting deeper than Bernard where he's better at driving forward picking a pass etc 

We can't stick to the same system it doesn't work as seen with Gana and Davies Morgan and Gana Morgan and Davies and so on 

Gana is the best defensive midfielder out of the three the other two offer very little ATM especially Davies 

Also questioning a players appetite to defend when they've not been played in such a way is premature especially considering Davies and Morgan run around like headless chickens

I don't see the logic behind Bernard and Sigurdsson being torn to shreds yet Davies and Morgan wouldn't 

Both slow one physically not much bigger than Bernard but technically no where near as good 

Sigurdsson is wasted in the system we've been playing he needs to sit further back where he can dictate play and make those forward runs that he used to for Swansea where he's far more effective and Bernard could be the creative spark people have banged on about for years 

He's a big physical presence we should be utilising that until we get a chance to see what Gomes has to offer imo 

We do massively miss McCarthy or a player with his combative and forward style of play as Nogs says I hope Gomes can fill the glaring gap we need filling

I don't not rate the lad but I'd have rather have had Besic sat as a DM than have both Gana and Morgan together it simply doesn't work 

We'll cause Arsenal plenty of problems on either flank it's the middle of the park they will dictate and pick us to pieces if something isn'tt changed  

1 hour ago, Finn balor said:

I would like to see us go for the win at arsenal. Can’t remember us ever going there and going at them. They are nearly as poor as us at the back and can be got at. 

                         Pickford

kenny          Mina/Holgate  Zouma     Digne

                       Gilfi       Morgan 

walcott                Bernard        Richarlison 

                              DCL 

id play Bernard in the hole behind the main striker with gilfi deeper. Hopefully Mina will be fit and can bring some leadership to the back line. We will give them a game 

I like that bar DCL he's not good enough just yet to be up there on his own imo he'd be better playing off another striker in a system we don't deploy 

                         Pickford 

Coleman  Zouma      Mina      Digne

                         Morgan

        Sigurdsson           Bernard

Walcott                                   Lookman

                       Richarlison

5 minutes ago, Quinn31 said:

He's done a good job in linking up play and we know he can finish, he just needs to get back in form. Let's not get hyperbolic on this one, I think Cenk is plenty good for this level. 

 

I agree he's definitely good enough no questions there and I do think he'll come good it's just a risky game of chess hoping it's the next game or the game after that 

I think being benched and coming on fresh might do him some good tbh especially against a side like Arsenal 

39 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/gary-speeds-wife-reveals-hidden-15159955

So sad powerful and traumatic in one brief read 

Really feel for her and the kids to deal with that is unimaginable, also goes to show how fragile the human mind can be and how others need to speak up if feeling that way 

Is it for whilst traveling Steve? I've always just stuck with the Halifax Clarity card for ease of use and the best daily rates 

That's if that's what your using it for like 

Digne for me, he had some very good moments can beat a man and puts in a brilliant ball 

Not the quickest but we've got ourselves a very good attacking LB 

I didn't see him open much space for anyone if I'm honest Bailey 

There's players that slot into a more athlete category and he's one of them for me, runs and has stamina but very little else

I think it was a poor system Silva set out with tbh we should have had one sitter it's a given to most that the two DM's doesn't work and I'd have had Sigurdsson sat slightly deeper with Bernard and Lookman instead of DCL  

Hopefully when we get players back we'll get to see what Silva has in mind but as it is we are toothless upfront and far to easy to counter 

10 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

Promising, very promising. 

Im very much looking forward to seeing him fully fit and up to speed. 

Looks a very tidy player doesn't he 

I think he'll be better either behind the striker/s or part of a front three on the left 

Not clinical enough and sloppy for the most part, we gifted that game away and fair play to WH they had three clear chances and put them away 

We best hope Tosun starts putting the ball away soon or we'll be fucked until January

The amount of quality deliveries today from Kenny and especially Digne and we only potted one is embarrassing

I can't wait for us to have lads back from injury and suspensions 

Gana and Morgan just doesn't work it's a piss poor man's version of Lampard and Gerrard and that's putting it nicely 

Hopefully Gomes can come in and be the forward minded CM with just one sitting back as a proper DM and it's no fault of his own he's been plonked there but DCL is a wasted spot when he's used out wide, much rather have seen Lookman start or Bernard 

Hard to say as some have played in such disjointed systems and times 

Ability wise 

Sigurdsson - On his day there's not that many better in this league 

Richarlison - Potentially a world beater 

Walcott - The lad has proven over the years that he's a top level player and has done the same since being here 

Pickford - If he stops palming the ball around in his own area like he's playing beach ball and irons out a few minor bad habits the lad will be world class 

Just stumbled across this! 

A few made me feel very odd

https://mobile.twitter.com/FinKitch/status/1034452758278103051

2 hours ago, StevO said:

You don’t see where he can improve? If you don’t think he’s that much of a telant then surely he can improve ALL aspects of his game? I don’t see why or how you can think a player doesn’t have the ability to improve. Even Thierry Henry said he was learning more and more well into his 30’s. Ossie, who I’ve already mentioned in here, only really become good enough at his mid 20’s and then for me improved almost every year until he got to about 31 when he then got a call up to the England team. 

They don’t have to be a top player at 18, 19, or even 23, just show enough quality and managers will back you. That seems to be happening with Tom.

No one said the abuse at local lads is for being local, that’s just daft, the abuse is for not performing. The local lads just seem to get it more than any other, in my opinion due to not meeting the standards we expect from our young local talent. You said yourself the abuse Ross got wasn’t ok. Why didn’t Geri get the same abuse? Similar talent level, similar age, similar potential. 

Ive not said I can't see how he can improve I've said numerous times I can't  see him improving to the point where he becomes anything  more than a squad player and I don't think he's currently at a standard to be starting games as he offers very little

Again something I've stated numerous times is that being or becoming a squad player isn'ttt a bad thing I've said in the match day threads and so on that he's done better recently and Silva has had a positive effect on his game

Slightly baffling comparing a player who clearly had the raw and natural ability of Henry who had the pace vision footwork finishing and many other attributes that Tom doesn't purely on the basis of age and development, the man already had that in his armoury it just needed polishing 

I don't want to sound like I'm bashing the lad but does he have pace does he have vision a wide range of passing ability the footwork and skill to beat players? No to me he has non of that, you've said yourself he could go onto being a steady squad player as I've said so I don't see the issue as I've agreed with you on that front

The last point is contradictory the way I read it but either way people have said the abuse they get is for being local and my point is that plays no part in my judgement of the lad or anyone else who I don't think is currently at the level where they should be starting games often, the local and age side of it may come into play with others but not myself 

Geri had his fair share of doubters and critics let's not brush that aside to make a case and he was similar to Barkely in the fact he has the ability but was frustrating with putting it all together, again with Geri his natural ability for the position he plays albeit different to Tom's is greater so he has a higher potential ceiling in my eyes 

Do I judge the lad more harshly because he's local no I'm not local myself so that sentiment plays no part in my reasoning

Do I take his age into account, yes as said he'll improve with experience but I don't think a great deal 

Do I think he's got the ability to go on and become a very good player no but as said multiple times a decent squad player