The Scam

[Lowensda]

Okay, so here's a little problem i'm asking for you to solve. There's this guy (Ten, thats me) who paid £15 to manufacture a pair of shoes. When he receives the pair of shoes, he has it marked to be sold at £21. So this customer (say Bob, or theif) comes in with counterfeit money of £50. Not knowing the the £50 is counterfeit, Ten goes to his next door shop neighbour (say Maxmillious) to get some change he (Ten) basically exchanges his counterfeit £50 for a real £50. Then Ten gives his customer Bob his change and the shoes. Later, the next day, Maxmillious comes back to Ten to ask for a real £50 back when he (Maxmillious) realised that the money was fake.

 

How much money did Ten lose?

 

PM me with the answer, no cheating!!

 

 

p.s this didn't actually happen if you're wondering haha.

[Lowensda]

Only two entrants so far, and no right answers. Ten may have found a good one

[Lowensda]

We have three correct answers now.

 

Well done to Holystove, Patto and DangerMouse for the correct answer.

 

Holy was the only one with any sort of working, so i shall paste his answer:

 

He spends 15 on the shoes and gets 21 when he sells them ... so he's up 6 ... then he has to give 50 to max ... which means he's down 44 ?

 

That's simply put. The counterfeit money is a smoke screen, you must take into account the profit he makes.

 

SO thats it, thanks all for posting

[rubecula]

Aww I wanted to have a go at that too. Oh well my own fault for having a dodgy connection.

[Lowensda]

Aww I wanted to have a go at that too. Oh well my own fault for having a dodgy connection.

 

Sorry Rubes!! I will try and find another one for you

[Bill]

He spends 15 on the shoes and gets 21 when he sells them ... so he's up 6 ... then he has to give 50 to max ... which means he's down 44 ?

That's it simply put. The counterfeit money is a smoke screen, you must take into account the profit he makes.

 

 

Sorry but i dispute the answer, he already gave the customer the shoes and 29 pounds change, which presumably was the genuine money which he got from next door.

 

So the way i see it is that in exchange for a dodgy £50 note he gave away the shoes and 29 pounds in change, then had to pay £50 back to his mate for the dodgy note he changed for him.

 

So i'm taking into account that he made no profit at all, in fact he lost £79 pounds and a pair of shoes.

Do you work as a CEO in EFCs Boardroom.

[holystove]

He spends 15 on the shoes and gets 21 when he sells them ... so he's up 6 ... then he has to give 50 to max ... which means he's down 44 ?

That's it simply put. The counterfeit money is a smoke screen, you must take into account the profit he makes.

 

 

Sorry but i dispute the answer, he already gave the customer the shoes and 29 pounds change, which presumably was the genuine money which he got from next door.

 

So the way i see it is that in exchange for a dodgy £50 note he gave away the shoes and 29 pounds in change, then had to pay £50 back to his mate for the dodgy note he changed for him.

 

So i'm taking into account that he made no profit at all, in fact he lost £79 pounds and a pair of shoes.

Do you work as a CEO in EFCs Boardroom.

 

Bill ... imagine Max is the same person as Ten. Bob comes into his store. Bob walks out of the store with 29£ and a pair of shoes which cost Ten £15. In exchange Bob gave Ten nothing but a dodgy 50 which is worthless. So Ten lost 29 + 15 = 44.

 

Another way to look at it. Ten got 21 pounds in the transaction. Then Ten has to give 50 tot Max. So he's out 50 + 15(shoes) = 65. If you then subtract the 21 he got in the transaction you get 65 - 21 = 44.

 

Max broke even because he got a real 50 back from Ten in the end.

Bob got 29 pounds and a pair of shoes.

Ten sold a pair of shoes on which he made a 6 pound profit. But then had to give 50 to Max. 50 - 6 = 44.

 

I guess there's still some other ways to explain it but I think you get it now .

[DangerMouse]

I think you will find your wrong Bill

[Bill]

Bill ... imagine Max is the same person as Ten. Bob comes into his store. Bob walks out of the store with 29£ and a pair of shoes which cost Ten £15. In exchange Bob gave Ten nothing but a dodgy 50 which is worthless. So Ten lost 29 + 15 = 44.

 

Another way to look at it. Ten got 21 pounds in the transaction. Then Ten has to give 50 tot Max. So he's out 50 + 15(shoes) = 65. If you then subtract the 21 he got in the transaction you get 65 - 21 = 44.

 

Max broke even because he got a real 50 back from Ten in the end.

Bob got 29 pounds and a pair of shoes.

Ten sold a pair of shoes on which he made a 6 pound profit. But then had to give 50 to Max. 50 - 6 = 44.

 

I guess there's still some other ways to explain it but I think you get it now .

 

I agree with the way you work out the 1st part, but on top of that £44, it also cost him another £50 pounds which he had to give back to his neighbour for the Worthless £50 note.

 

The whole top and bottom of it is that he never sold anything, he gave it away for nothing, 29 + 15 and then 50 to max for nothing in return, which equals a loss of 94 or 100 if you like, because he didnt make any profit if he didnt recieve anything for the shoes.

[Matt]

i used to think i was reasonably intelligent but you 2 guys have confused the bejeesus outta me...

[holystove]

I agree with the way you work out the 1st part, but on top of that £44, it also cost him another £50 pounds which he had to give back to his neighbour for the Worthless £50 note.

 

The whole top and bottom of it is that he never sold anything, he gave it away for nothing, 29 + 15 and then 50 to max for nothing in return, which equals a loss of 94 or 100 if you like, because he didnt make any profit if he didnt recieve anything for the shoes.

 

I admit that at first I made the same mistake as you.

 

Here's another try at an explanation:

 

STARTING POINT : Bob has a FAKE 50. Max has a REAL 50. Ten has a pair of shoes which he paid 15 pounds for.

 

1) Bob walks into a store with a FAKE 50.

2) In exchange for the FAKE 50, he gets a REAL 50 (which Ten got from Max).

3) With the REAL 50 Bob buys shoes.

4) The shoes cost 21 pounds which Bob pays for with the REAL 50.

5) At this point, Ten has 6 REAL pounds (21 - 15) and Bob has 29 REAL pounds + shoes. Max has the FAKE 50.

6) Max wants a REAL 50 for his FAKE 50 and goes to Ten.

7) Ten gives Max a REAL 50.

8) At this point, Bob has 29 REAL pounds + shoes. Max has a REAL 50. Ten has -44 (6 - 50) REAL pounds + a FAKE 50.

9) Disregard the FAKE 50 and you end up with -44 REAL pounds for Ten.

Edited February 10, 2010 by holystove

[Bill]

How can you ignore the fake 50 when it is central to the story. Ten is handing over 29 plus The shoes and gets nothing in return, when the customer has gone Ten has to give Max £50 and again gets nothing in return. He has not made a profit on anything, he has parted with £79 pounds plus a pair of shoes and received nothing in return.

 

Next time i want some shoes i'm coming to your shop.

[rubecula]

Actually Ten I am glad I didn't have a go at this after all.

 

Good grief everybody has a different answer.

[DangerMouse]

How can you ignore the fake 50 when it is central to the story. Ten is handing over 29 plus The shoes and gets nothing in return, when the customer has gone Ten has to give Max £50 and again gets nothing in return. He has not made a profit on anything, he has parted with £79 pounds plus a pair of shoes and received nothing in return.

 

Next time i want some shoes i'm coming to your shop.

 

 

just accept your wrong and move on

[Bill]

just accept your wrong and move on

 

I was going to move on DM, but its not the first comment you've made and yet i dont see an explaination or an answer from you.

[DangerMouse]

I was going to move on DM, but its not the first comment you've made and yet i dont see an explaination or an answer from you.

 

I pm Ten my answer as requested Im sure Ten will back me up... He did say I got it right if you just read up the topic a little....

 

I got the answer in a very similar fashin to holystove....I just went through the transaction step by step and at the end took into account paying back the £50 and the money lost on manufacturing the shoes....

 

1. man walks into shop and gives me a £50 note for shoes costing £21

2. I dont have change so I go next door and swap £50 note for £50 in change

 

at this point I have 50

 

3. I give the customer his shoes and £29 pound change...

 

at this point I have £21 in my till.

 

4. the guy from next door comes around complaining about the £50 note and I agree to give him back £50

 

at this point I have £21 - £50 = -£29

 

5. Manufacturing the shoes cost me £15

 

at this point -£29 - £15 = -£44

 

I hope this is acceptable Bill

Edited February 11, 2010 by DangerMouse

[Bill]

Of course its acceptable, as those from Holystove were also aceptable.

Actually i thought i might start an avalanche of replies from different posters, but i think most got frightened and never took the bait.

 

Thats my excuse anyway.

[The Beard]

Bill, I was looking at it from your angle and think I am right, by the way I got £73 as my answer

[MikeO]

I found Bob, gave him a good hiding and stole his wallet. I'm £37.50 in profit...and have £1,250 worth of counterfeit fifties which I intend to invest in black market fake Converse .

[Bill]

Bill, I was looking at it from your angle and think I am right, by the way I got £73 as my answer

 

Yeah the £79 pounds less the £6 pounds profit he didnt make, cos he never sold the shoes, he gave them away for a dodgy 50 pound note.

 

All the above answers are acceptable, ........... But that does'nt mean to say they are right.

[holystove]

Bill, I was looking at it from your angle and think I am right, by the way I got £73 as my answer

 

Even after you read the deconstruction of the problem by DangerMouse (and me)?

 

One last attempt. I hope it becomes clear now:

 

Bob walks into the store with a fake 50. So basicly he walks into the store with nothing, right? OK, so he gives Ten nothing and in exchange gets 29 pounds and a pair of shoes which Ten himself had paid 15 pounds for. So Ten in essence gave Bob 29 + 15 = 44 in exchange for nothing.

 

Alright. Meanwhile this happens : Ten goes to Max to ask for 50. Max gives it. Later, Max asks it back. Ten gives Max 50. So basically nothing happens there.

 

 

If you don't want to disregard the fake 50 and want to keep track of it throughout the transaction, here goes :

 

Bob walks into the store with a fake 50. Ten goes to Max and exchanges Bob's fake 50 for a real 50. Ten gives Bob a real 50. Bob uses the REAL 50 to buy shoes. He pays Ten 21 pounds for the shoes. Max walks in the store of Ten and wants his 50 back. Oh NO! Ten has only 21 pounds left. So he has to come up with an extra 29!! On top of that, he no longer has the shoes! So that's an extra 15 pounds gone!! Oh boy, now he's down 29 + 15 pounds, which is 44 pounds.

 

 

 

So how in the world do you end up with 73? (or 79).

[MikeO]

What size were the shoes again ?

[Bill]

So how in the world do you end up with 73? (or 79).

 

 

 

 

This must be a six pounder at least

[Lowensda]

Bugger me...i've just come on. What the hell happened here!? The answer is £44. The counterfeit part is the smoke-screen which is designed to throw them out. As Holy has diagnosed very well, thats how you get the answer.

 

Oh Mike, they were a size TEN (Get it haha)

 

Im soo glad that i posted this smug Ten!

[The Beard]

I just dissected the whole thing again and I got £73, again.

[MikeO]

I just dissected the whole thing again and I got £73, again.

Think your scalpel must be a little blunt .

[holystove]

Think your scalpel must be a little blunt .

 

Or given the fact that he doesn't say why, I'm thinking he's just trying to get some people riled up again .

[Bill]

Ive dissected it once again and here is how it goes ...........

 

A man walks into a shop and is given 29 pounds and a pair of shoes worth 21 pounds, the shopkeeper has received nothing, so he is already 50 pounds down, the man leaves with his shoes. Then the next door shop owner comes in and asks for 50 pounds, again he has received nothing so now he is 100 pounds down. But seeing as the shoes only cost 15 pounds to make and not 21 pounds, he is in fact now only 94 pounds down.

 

Now tell me, are those workings right or wrong.

[DangerMouse]

Ive dissected it once again and here is how it goes ...........

 

A man walks into a shop and is given 29 pounds and a pair of shoes worth 21 pounds, the shopkeeper has received nothing, so he is already 50 pounds down, the man leaves with his shoes. Then the next door shop owner comes in and asks for 50 pounds, again he has received nothing so now he is 100 pounds down. But seeing as the shoes only cost 15 pounds to make and not 21 pounds, he is in fact now only 94 pounds down.

 

Now tell me, are those workings right or wrong.

 

 

WRONG But you already know that

[Matt]

Ive dissected it once again and here is how it goes ...........

 

A man walks into a shop and is given 29 pounds and a pair of shoes worth 21 pounds, the shopkeeper has received nothing, so he is already 50 pounds down, the man leaves with his shoes. Then the next door shop owner comes in and asks for 50 pounds, again he has received nothing so now he is 100 pounds down. But seeing as the shoes only cost 15 pounds to make and not 21 pounds, he is in fact now only 94 pounds down.

 

Now tell me, are those workings right or wrong.

im with you here Bill, after several days of deliberating now!