Kenwright: True Blue Or Epic Swindler?

[carlmc25]

how depressing, the same old anti-BK stuff again. If I hear the Lerner story (fabrication?) wheeled out ever again it'll be too soon. He probably picked Villa (if he was even interested in us) because they are far more centrally located with a much bigger catchment area (ie potential fanbase), probably less debt, a stadium in less need of renovation and they are the number one club in their city. It may not be that BK turned him down but the other way round. Also, what the hell has Lerner actually done for Villa? they've finished below us virtually every season haven't they (I think last injury ravaged season was possibly the only one where they did finish above us)? their manager quit because he wouldn't give him any money and he'd just sold off one of his best players without replacing him and the man he picked to turn it around was Mr Average Houllier. I fail to see how Lerner is the world's greatest chairman or an improvement on BK, who Moyes and the players seem to genuinely care for and respect?

 

Also, Hafnia spouted some absolute nonsense about how BK couldn't sell buns or something on the Apprentice. When you've set up your own theatre company, made millions and bought your own football club then I think you may be in a position to comment on BK's financial and business acumen.

Edited November 1, 2010 by carlmc25

[Ian C]

As an aside, re: thread title; I despise the word 'epic'.

 

Sorry for the interruption, do carry on.

[smeghead1]

kenwright may be in the yellow pages under the skint sectionbut lets be fair to him he was there when we really needed him! Has evedryone forgot that redshite supporting dick who was in charge before him? Ffs Johnson kept his box at analfield even when he was our chairmen!! Joe Royle quit because he wouldnt sanction the signing of Tore Andre Flo for 750k! The lad went onto score a sackfull for Chelsea and was then sold for a massive profit, a profit that wouldve secured the Kings Dock!! If u want to rip a chairman apart go for the previous one not the one who actually gives a shit!

[Hafnia]

how depressing, the same old anti-BK stuff again. If I hear the Lerner story (fabrication?) wheeled out ever again it'll be too soon. He probably picked Villa (if he was even interested in us) because they are far more centrally located with a much bigger catchment area (ie potential fanbase), probably less debt, a stadium in less need of renovation and they are the number one club in their city. It may not be that BK turned him down but the other way round. Also, what the hell has Lerner actually done for Villa? they've finished below us virtually every season haven't they (I think last injury ravaged season was possibly the only one where they did finish above us)? their manager quit because he wouldn't give him any money and he'd just sold off one of his best players without replacing him and the man he picked to turn it around was Mr Average Houllier. I fail to see how Lerner is the world's greatest chairman or an improvement on BK, who Moyes and the players seem to genuinely care for and respect?

 

Also, Hafnia spouted some absolute nonsense about how BK couldn't sell buns or something on the Apprentice. When you've set up your own theatre company, made millions and bought your own football club then I think you may be in a position to comment on BK's financial and business acumen.

 

Re-read what I wrote. I said "Would Bill stand up and be successful in an Apprentice style bun fight?" - so it's not absolute nonsense. The reason being that is the part of the show where big questions are asked, lies are expected and flaws are exposed. It usually involves numbers being crunched. This is where Kenwright has failings. His tenure has been a mixed bag of highs (Moyes) and lows (fortress fund lie, kings dock, Kirkby) unfortunately the lows have been costly.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/e/everton/1454035.stm - Missed opportunity

 

As for Lerner, I wasn't aware he was responsible for spotting players, coaching and making decisions on the pitch? He has invested a net spend of over £20m a year a Villa, so I really do not kinow what you are talking about. Maybe you confused him with Martin O'Neill. For me Lerner has made a substantial financial backing of his manager who under performed.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/jan/27/randy-lerner-aston-villa - imagine that level of investment

 

What has setting up a theatre company got to do with running a football club? He hasn't bought his own football club, he invested some money and borrowed money to get his level of shares. I doubt you have read the original post to be honest.

[carlmc25]

Re-read what I wrote. I said "Would Bill stand up and be successful in an Apprentice style bun fight?" - so it's not absolute nonsense. The reason being that is the part of the show where big questions are asked, lies are expected and flaws are exposed. It usually involves numbers being crunched. This is where Kenwright has failings. His tenure has been a mixed bag of highs (Moyes) and lows (fortress fund lie, kings dock, Kirkby) unfortunately the lows have been costly.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/e/everton/1454035.stm - Missed opportunity

 

As for Lerner, I wasn't aware he was responsible for spotting players, coaching and making decisions on the pitch? He has invested a net spend of over £20m a year a Villa, so I really do not kinow what you are talking about. Maybe you confused him with Martin O'Neill. For me Lerner has made a substantial financial backing of his manager who under performed.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/jan/27/randy-lerner-aston-villa - imagine that level of investment

 

What has setting up a theatre company got to do with running a football club? He hasn't bought his own football club, he invested some money and borrowed money to get his level of shares. I doubt you have read the original post to be honest.

I can't even be bothered looking into Lerner's figures but I cannot for the life of me see how he's spent £20m a year? He sold Barry for massive money and Milner and apart from when he first took over and bought Ashley Young, Dunne, Friedel etc he's hardly spent anything in the last couple of years that I can remember - players like Downing were easily outweighed by the monies brought in? He sold two of the fans most popular players and wouldn't give O'Neill the money to replace them with anything decent.

 

As everyone keeps going on about Lerner I'd love to see the actual investment he's put in - ie players brought in against players sold, I think you'd be surprised at how little money he has actually spent. The fact is Lerner hasn't done a better job than Kenwright even with his money, mainly because most rich people don't actually put any of their own money into the club as they are in it for business purposes, not love like Kenwright.

[c1982]

I can't even be bothered looking into Lerner's figures but I cannot for the life of me see how he's spent £20m a year? He sold Barry for massive money and Milner and apart from when he first took over and bought Ashley Young, Dunne, Friedel etc he's hardly spent anything in the last couple of years that I can remember - players like Downing were easily outweighed by the monies brought in? He sold two of the fans most popular players and wouldn't give O'Neill the money to replace them with anything decent.

 

As everyone keeps going on about Lerner I'd love to see the actual investment he's put in - ie players brought in against players sold, I think you'd be surprised at how little money he has actually spent. The fact is Lerner hasn't done a better job than Kenwright even with his money, mainly because most rich people don't actually put any of their own money into the club as they are in it for business purposes, not love like Kenwright.

 

Lerner spent big initially with Villa - off the top of my head a net spend of about £90m before Milner money - probably why the milner money wasn't made available to o'neill as he hasn't performed! Where the money went? Milner £10m+, Davies £10m, Downing £10m, Cuellar £6m, Warnock £6m, etc... Petrov, Reo Coker, Sidwell, Shorey, L.Young, Collins all around £5m mark each. Don't be fooled Villa have consistently been one of the top spending prem clubs with exception of last summer and obviously that had something to do with O'Neill's exit.

 

The money villa have re-couped recently is a result of this spending showing no result I would imagine, but I think if you do your research (I can't be arsed!) you will see a net spend of about £60m in lerners time at villa - more like £90m before the recent milner sale.

 

All in all I think Moyes could have spent Lerner's $$$ at GP better than O'Neill did at VP.

 

...also looking back - Kings Dock would have been some stadium!!!

[MikeO]

I can't even be bothered looking into Lerner's figures but I cannot for the life of me see how he's spent £20m a year?

 

Just over £80m net spend in the four seasons he's been there according to this...

 

http://www.goal.com/en/news/9/england/2010/08/10/2063793/the-martin-oneill-years-how-aston-villa-grew-under-the-enigmatic-

 

£82m down the toilet if their current form is anything to go by .

[Louis]

He also bought the Holte Hotel outside Villa Park and spent a few million doing it up after it had been abandoned for 28 years.

 

http://www.epltalk.c...ormer-glory/835

http://www.birminghampost.net/midlands-birmingham-sport/west-midlands-sports/tm_headline=holte-hotel-kicks-off-new-era-for-lerner&method=full&objectid=19254234&siteid=50002-name_page.html

[Hafnia]

He also bought the Holte Hotel outside Villa Park and spent a few million doing it up after it had been abandoned for 28 years.

 

http://www.epltalk.c...ormer-glory/835

http://www.birminghampost.net/midlands-birmingham-sport/west-midlands-sports/tm_headline=holte-hotel-kicks-off-new-era-for-lerner&method=full&objectid=19254234&siteid=50002-name_page.html

 

I agree. Plus....

Bodymoor Heath training ground to boot, he also has given them more corporate boxes in order to generate the type of cash that allows the likes of arsenal to be self sufficient. I'm not for one saying that bill is to blame because he can't do all that. Equally he should not be lauded because he isn't Peter Johnson.

 

I respect the good he has done and hate the failures because ultimately it impacts everton f.c.

 

He is in a position of some strength due to the team punching above it's weight in terms of funding the manager has had to work with vs results. If we were perennial relegation battlers I would guess many more fans would see through his teary eyed emotions, the fear of seeing our club trying to survive on scraps would see a very different reaction by many.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

I agree. Plus....

Bodymoor Heath training ground to boot, he also has given them more corporate boxes in order to generate the type of cash that allows the likes of arsenal to be self sufficient. I'm not for one saying that bill is to blame because he can't do all that. Equally he should not be lauded because he isn't Peter Johnson.

 

I respect the good he has done and hate the failures because ultimately it impacts everton f.c.

 

He is in a position of some strength due to the team punching above it's weight in terms of funding the manager has had to work with vs results. If we were perennial relegation battlers I would guess many more fans would see through his teary eyed emotions, the fear of seeing our club trying to survive on scraps would see a very different reaction by many.

 

 

What a ridiculous comment, thats like saying if Sheryl Cole was ugly she wouldnt be gorgeous or if Adam was Eve he wouldnt be a man.

 

Kenwright should be judged by results on and off the pitch and clearly both are dramatically better than when he took over. The fact that we are no longer perennial relegation battlers must surely mean he has been doing something right

[Hafnia]

What a ridiculous comment, thats like saying if Sheryl Cole was ugly she wouldnt be gorgeous or if Adam was Eve he wouldnt be a man.

 

Kenwright should be judged by results on and off the pitch and clearly both are dramatically better than when he took over. The fact that we are no longer perennial relegation battlers must surely mean he has been doing something right

 

How is that a ridiculous comment? You clearly can't establish the difference between the role of a chairman and a football manager.

 

Your analogy is ridiculous, you are basically implying that if we are ok on the pitch how can everything in the board room be bad?!

 

To correct yout analogy, I am saying that Cheryl cole is gorgeous and can't believe she wasted so much time with someone who deceives, lies and is money mad, when she deserves far better. If anything she enhanced his reputation and publically supported him till his true colours were shown. Some people knew he was no good, she just didn't want to believe.

 

Is that ridiculous?

[carlmc25]

Just over £80m net spend in the four seasons he's been there according to this...

 

http://www.goal.com/en/news/9/england/2010/08/10/2063793/the-martin-oneill-years-how-aston-villa-grew-under-the-enigmatic-

 

£82m down the toilet if their current form is anything to go by .

I cant believe he's spent that much, that was a real surprise, although their turnover has probably jumped quite markedly in the time. It's obviously more like £56m now after the Milner money but still more than I realised. What a load of crap they've bought!

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

How is that a ridiculous comment? You clearly can't establish the difference between the role of a chairman and a football manager.

 

Your analogy is ridiculous, you are basically implying that if we are ok on the pitch how can everything in the board room be bad?!

To correct yout analogy, I am saying that Cheryl cole is gorgeous and can't believe she wasted so much time with someone who deceives, lies and is money mad, when she deserves far better. If anything she enhanced his reputation and publically supported him till his true colours were shown. Some people knew he was no good, she just didn't want to believe.

 

Is that ridiculous?

 

 

That is the opposite of what I am saying. As I stated BK should be judged for the performance of the club on and off the pitch. Which part of that dont you get?

 

The reason I said your statement was ridiculous was because you were implying that if the club was still fighting against relegation every year then people would question the chairmans reign, well of cause they would. But that is the whole point we arent fighting relegation, he has moved the club forward a long way since those days and we are now challenging regularly for Europe. Off the pitch we are posting record turn over year on year. We are no longer in anywhere near as precarious a financial situation as we used to be and he has appointed and more importantly stuck by one of the best young managers in the country when all around him were calling for his head. In other words he has done a good job.

 

Quite how you come to the conclusion that I dont know the difference between a football manager and a chairman escapes me, perhaps you would care to explain that one?

 

If you would rather have Peter Johnson still in charge then you could always go and support Tranmere

[Romey 1878]

We are no longer in anywhere near as precarious a financial situation as we used to be

 

 

Is that really the case though? We go into more and more debt every year and we've sold off every asset we have (apart from the players, and we've even had to sell to buy recently). We've borrowed against revenue we haven't even got yet. We have to wait for the Sky money to be able to buy any one.

 

That seems a precarious situation to me.

[iggy]

Is that really the case though? We go into more and more debt every year and we've sold off every asset we have (apart from the players, and we've even had to sell to buy recently). We've borrowed against revenue we haven't even got yet. We have to wait for the Sky money to be able to buy any one.

 

That seems a precarious situation to me.

 

 

This as least is something that cannot be denied, the family silver has long gone, the house is mortgaged to the hilt, and the club are finding harder and harder to get loans as the bailiffs could theoretically appear at any moment to grab what they can.

 

 

[MikeO]

...the bailiffs could theoretically appear at any moment to grab what they can.

What have we defaulted on?

[nogs]

 

When Kenwright reviews his time at the club, can he honestly say he was a good Chairman? I don't think he can. I would love for him to have a moral victory that will endear him to his fiercest critics, i.e securing a sale that would transform our fortunes.

 

 

Of course he can honestly say he's been a good chairman. When he took over, we were a bottom five club, now we're a top five club, or thereabouts. He HAS transformed our fortunes, it is utterly naive to think that ANYONE could wave a magic wand and undo the mess that was made of this great club in the late 80s and during the Johnson years overnight, not unless we're talking a billionaire sugardaddy, which i think most sensible fans agree we wouldn't want.

 

Tbh I find the whole Kenwright argument dull as dishwater, I can't remember the mid-80s so this is the best I can ever remember things being as an Everton fan, yeah I wanna keep progressing and yeah i wanna see us win things, but ffs can we please stop the griping end enjoy what we've got, which is a hell of a lot more than a lot of other teams

[iggy]

What have we defaulted on?

 

Nothing as far as I am aware Mike, it wasn't perhaps phrased that well.

The reason I made that statement is that it must be getting harder to keep up with payments on the various loans and maintain the club as it stands. In the current financial climate it is harder to borrow money, and especially so if your current loans are secured against everything you own and what you know is coming in in the near future.

If things get financially very hard in the near future, then thoeretically banks and financial institutions could start calling in debt and could insist on the sale of assets in order to recoup their money.

 

 

 

[Hafnia]

That is the opposite of what I am saying. As I stated BK should be judged for the performance of the club on and off the pitch. Which part of that dont you get?

 

The reason I said your statement was ridiculous was because you were implying that if the club was still fighting against relegation every year then people would question the chairmans reign, well of cause they would. But that is the whole point we arent fighting relegation, he has moved the club forward a long way since those days and we are now challenging regularly for Europe. Off the pitch we are posting record turn over year on year. We are no longer in anywhere near as precarious a financial situation as we used to be and he has appointed and more importantly stuck by one of the best young managers in the country when all around him were calling for his head. In other words he has done a good job.

 

Quite how you come to the conclusion that I dont know the difference between a football manager and a chairman escapes me, perhaps you would care to explain that one?

 

If you would rather have Peter Johnson still in charge then you could always go and support Tranmere

 

I love the Peter Johnson chestnut, always makes me chuckle. A bit like our mate Cheryl telling all her mates "ashley isn't that bad, he cheated on me with a hairdresser, it could have been worse, it could have been with jordon"

 

A net spend of a little over £3m a year, selling players to buy, not owning our own training ground, going further into debt. The facts are there, you keep desperately pointing to improvements, we have to a large extent been treading water. In four to five years time where do you see our net spend of £3m a year getting us in replacing the likes of arteta, Neville, Cahill, yak, Saha, hibbert, osman.

 

Without serious money coming into our club, how are we going to do this? Yes, the answer will be to sell rodwell, fellaini and replace them with diluted versions which may or may not pay off. We need to be in a position to supplement their talents. One the saleable assets would have gosling, less said the better eh.

 

You still think bill is the man to take us through transition?

 

Now I await the usual "he has steadied the ship" - if that means spending no money whilst moyes performs miracles then yes he has.

 

Anyone been watching spurs and wondering what might have been if we pushed the finances out before playing villareal?

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

I love the Peter Johnson chestnut, always makes me chuckle. A bit like our mate Cheryl telling all her mates "ashley isn't that bad, he cheated on me with a hairdresser, it could have been worse, it could have been with jordon"

 

A net spend of a little over £3m a year, selling players to buy, not owning our own training ground, going further into debt. The facts are there, you keep desperately pointing to improvements, we have to a large extent been treading water. In four to five years time where do you see our net spend of £3m a year getting us in replacing the likes of arteta, Neville, Cahill, yak, Saha, hibbert, osman.

 

Without serious money coming into our club, how are we going to do this? Yes, the answer will be to sell rodwell, fellaini and replace them with diluted versions which may or may not pay off. We need to be in a position to supplement their talents. One the saleable assets would have gosling, less said the better eh.

 

You still think bill is the man to take us through transition?

 

Now I await the usual "he has steadied the ship" - if that means spending no money whilst moyes performs miracles then yes he has.

 

Anyone been watching spurs and wondering what might have been if we pushed the finances out before playing villareal?

 

 

I cant understand how or why Peter Johnson would make you chuckle, the man single handedly destroyed our club and I cant imagine many blues would see the funny side.

 

I have never for one minute claimed that BK is the man to take us forward. My stance is that I am very grateful for what he has done however he just doesnt have the money to take us forward and so we desperately need investment from somewhere and I would be as happy as the next man to see BK stand aside if the right owners can be found.

 

What ever your opinion of BK people can come up with a whole host of very good points both for and against him but Im afraid the one you made is the worst argument I have ever had the misfortune to come accross. You are basically saying that if we were still shit people woud say he hasnt achieved anything!

 

The fact is we are not shit, indeed we have got a very young and talented squad, probably the best squad since the glory days of the eighties, and with the exception of Piennar they are now all tied down to long contracts. Compare that to the squad he inherired

 

I agree that this summer we have been treading water, but its the only time we have done since BK has been in charge and to say that all he has done is steadied the ship is a gross understatement. You are either too young to remember the Johnson era or too stupid to realise how bad a state the club was in back then. We could very easily have gone the same way as Sheffield Wednesday, Leeds, City or Derby had BK not "steadied the ship"

 

 

Oh and have you ever thought what might have been if we had pushed the finances out before playing Villareal and Collini had still shafted us? Leeds springs to mind

Edited November 4, 2010 by duncanmckenzieismagic

[Hafnia]

I cant understand how or why Peter Johnson would make you chuckle, the man single handedly destroyed our club and I cant imagine many blues would see the funny side.

 

I have never for one minute claimed that BK is the man to take us forward. My stance is that I am very grateful for what he has done however he just doesnt have the money to take us forward and so we desperately need investment from somewhere and I would be as happy as the next man to see BK stand aside if the right owners can be found.

 

What ever your opinion of BK people can come up with a whole host of very good points both for and against him but Im afraid the one you made is the worst argument I have ever had the misfortune to come accross. You are basically saying that if we were still shit people woud say he hasnt achieved anything!

 

The fact is we are not shit, indeed we have got a very young and talented squad, probably the best squad since the glory days of the eighties, and with the exception of Piennar they are now all tied down to long contracts. Compare that to the squad he inherired

 

I agree that this summer we have been treading water, but its the only time we have done since BK has been in charge and to say that all he has done is steadied the ship is a gross understatement. You are either too young to remember the Johnson era or too stupid to realise how bad a state the club was in back then. We could very easily have gone the same way as Sheffield Wednesday, Leeds, City or Derby had BK not "steadied the ship"

 

 

Oh and have you ever thought what might have been if we had pushed the finances out before playing Villareal and Collini had still shafted us? Leeds springs to mind

 

I'm neither stupid nor too young, so let's leave the insults aside, if the is anything lacking it is your inability to clearly comprehend a post before your hackles are raised and you post something such as above.

 

The Peter Johnson chestnut makes me chuckle because he is only ever mentioned to justify bill kenwright as being a saviour. Right let's get this out the way, he took over and appointed David moyes, agreed?

 

Since taking over he has overseen the kings dock fiasco, fortress fund lies, ntl funding failure, kirby, a net spend of £3m per season. His only saving grace is that manager has performed miracles. So to the point that you had the most misfortune to fail to grasp properly Is that what we have on the pitch is not down to him!!! It is in spite of him. Unless you can tell me that he has extensive knowledge of footballers abilities and sourced the likes of pienaar, arteta etc? For pennies Took them for training, did half time talks and made substitutions (maybe he could do that better than moyes).

 

He hasn't been the man to take us forward for the past 7 or 8 years. He should have been a caretaker chairman, the problem is he clearly loves his position too much and has far more celebrity than he should. It is getting embarrassing seeing him continually spout nonsense of how he wants to give David money to spend, he has had years to get it sorted, he hasn't managed it, move on. Anyway, how much is the club up for sale for? Sorry don't want to bore you.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

I'm neither stupid nor too young, so let's leave the insults aside, if the is anything lacking it is your inability to clearly comprehend a post before your hackles are raised and you post something such as above.

 

The Peter Johnson chestnut makes me chuckle because he is only ever mentioned to justify bill kenwright as being a saviour. Right let's get this out the way, he took over and appointed David moyes, agreed?

 

Since taking over he has overseen the kings dock fiasco, fortress fund lies, ntl funding failure, kirby, a net spend of £3m per season. His only saving grace is that manager has performed miracles. So to the point that you had the most misfortune to fail to grasp properly Is that what we have on the pitch is not down to him!!! It is in spite of him. Unless you can tell me that he has extensive knowledge of footballers abilities and sourced the likes of pienaar, arteta etc? For pennies Took them for training, did half time talks and made substitutions (maybe he could do that better than moyes).

 

He hasn't been the man to take us forward for the past 7 or 8 years. He should have been a caretaker chairman, the problem is he clearly loves his position too much and has far more celebrity than he should. It is getting embarrassing seeing him continually spout nonsense of how he wants to give David money to spend, he has had years to get it sorted, he hasn't managed it, move on. Anyway, how much is the club up for sale for? Sorry don't want to bore you.

 

 

A bit late for that now but never mind!

 

Anyway I wasnt intending to insult you. I dont know you from Adam and so I have no idea how old you are and if you are too young to remember Johnson then how is that an insult? On the other side of the coin if you do remember him and you dont think the club has improved since his time in charge then I am afraid you are stupid , insult or not.

 

As I said earlier ther are plenty of very valid points that can be put forward for or against BK but I still cant see how you think that saying if we were shit it would mean he is a bad chairman is one of them. That is the statement I am saying is ridiculous, I am not questioning your opinion of BK ,your entitled to it wether I agree with you or not. So why you are prattling on about Kenwright not doing team talks and taking training is also beyond me.

[Everton_Worshiper]

A bit late for that now but never mind!

 

Anyway I wasnt intending to insult you. I dont know you from Adam and so I have no idea how old you are and if you are too young to remember Johnson then how is that an insult? On the other side of the coin if you do remember him and you dont think the club has improved since his time in charge then I am afraid you are stupid , insult or not.

 

As I said earlier ther are plenty of very valid points that can be put forward for or against BK but I still cant see how you think that saying if we were shit it would mean he is a bad chairman is one of them. That is the statement I am saying is ridiculous, I am not questioning your opinion of BK ,your entitled to it wether I agree with you or not. So why you are prattling on about Kenwright not doing team talks and taking training is also beyond me.

 

Great post! I have kept out of this debate because it is the same old dribble from a stuck record...but duncanmckenzieismagic is spot on with this.

 

 

I bet the bottle is always half empty for some people...

[carlmc25]

People always seem to forget that we aren't as much in debt because we now have genuine assets on the pitch that we could sell to raise money. I'm not sure how much in debt we are - I'm sure someone can tell me - but I would expect that selling the likes of Arteta, Rodwell, Jags and Fellaini would wipe it out, and still leave us with a team that would finish in the top half of the table - unlike the perennial relegation scrappers we had when BK took over.

 

Therefore, we are better off than when BK took over as we had no one worth a carrot in our team in those days.

[Romey 1878]

But the players are the ONLY assets the club has left, that's hardly stellar business sense from BK is it? We're in a position where we should be pushing on on the field (i.e. investing in bringing in players) but instead, if we get into financial difficulties (which isn't unlikely seeing as we have loan ontop of loan) then we'd have to rip out the heart of our team just to survive. We'd drop down the table (at least) and therefore we'd be getting less income. Some fans could become disillusioned that the board had let that happen to the club due to their incompetence and stop putting their own money into the club. So even less money coming in.

 

 

Also, do you really think we could sell Jags, Arteta, Fellaini, Rodwell, not replace them (because their transfer fees would have gone to pay off the clubs debts) and finish in the top half? Honestly?

Edited November 9, 2010 by Romey 1878

[carlmc25]

But the players are the ONLY assets the club has left, that's hardly stellar business sense from BK is it? We're in a position where we should be pushing on on the field (i.e. investing in bringing in players) but instead, if we get into financial difficulties (which isn't unlikely seeing as we have loan ontop of loan) then we'd have to rip out the heart of our team just to survive. We'd drop down the table (at least) and therefore we'd be getting less income. Some fans could become disillusioned that the board had let that happen to the club due to their incompetence and stop putting their own money into the club. So even less money coming in.

 

 

Also, do you really think we could sell Jags, Arteta, Fellaini, Rodwell, not replace them (because their transfer fees would have gone to pay off the clubs debts) and finish in the top half? Honestly?

Unless I'm mistaken Jags, Fellaini, Arteta were injured most of last season and Rodwell didn't exactly set the world alight and we finished in the top 7 or 8 so yes I do. Heitinga can play in defence, Pienaar in CM, Rodwell isn't first choice and Neville can play in DM. We have options all over the pitch. When BK took over we probably had about £20m worth of talent (pure guess obviously) whereas now we probably have £100m ish - at least.

 

I'd rather have the assets on the pitch rather than in the stands or the training ground. In an ideal world we'd have both.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

But the players are the ONLY assets the club has left, that's hardly stellar business sense from BK is it? We're in a position where we should be pushing on on the field (i.e. investing in bringing in players) but instead, if we get into financial difficulties (which isn't unlikely seeing as we have loan ontop of loan) then we'd have to rip out the heart of our team just to survive. We'd drop down the table (at least) and therefore we'd be getting less income. Some fans could become disillusioned that the board had let that happen to the club due to their incompetence and stop putting their own money into the club. So even less money coming in.

 

 

Also, do you really think we could sell Jags, Arteta, Fellaini, Rodwell, not replace them (because their transfer fees would have gone to pay off the clubs debts) and finish in the top half? Honestly?

 

 

What assets did we have before BK took charge?

 

It wasnt BK who saddled the club with all the debts, we were in a financial mess way before that. When he took over we had an ageing squad all on big wages and no sell on value so to have transformed the squad to its present state whilst steadying the ship off the pitch is quite an achievement in my book. Before BK's era did we even have a Felli, Jags or Arteta to sell?

 

Your worst case scenario sounds pretty much like the situation we were in before BK

 

On top of having the best squad we have had since the mid 80's we have a state of the art training ground, even if we dont actually own it, and the retail side is growing rapidly year on year.

 

Yes there have been some monumental fuck ups along the way ( Kings Dock, Kirkby, ticketing for Villareal etc) but they all pail into insignificance when you look at what has happend over the road or elsewhere in the Premiership.

[Hafnia]

What assets did we have before BK took charge?

 

It wasnt BK who saddled the club with all the debts, we were in a financial mess way before that. When he took over we had an ageing squad all on big wages and no sell on value so to have transformed the squad to its present state whilst steadying the ship off the pitch is quite an achievement in my book. Before BK's era did we even have a Felli, Jags or Arteta to sell?

 

Your worst case scenario sounds pretty much like the situation we were in before BK

 

On top of having the best squad we have had since the mid 80's we have a state of the art training ground, even if we dont actually own it, and the retail side is growing rapidly year on year.

 

Yes there have been some monumental fuck ups along the way ( Kings Dock, Kirkby, ticketing for Villareal etc) but they all pail into insignificance when you look at what has happend over the road or elsewhere in the Premiership.

 

Kenwrights consortium bought 68% of the club for £20mm in 1999, giving it a valuation at that time of £29.4mm. Since then a £30mm loan was secured from Bear Sterns which will cost the club £68mm over the term of 25 years (£4mm a year just on interest). In that time we have bought finch farm (the land) sold it to a development company for £8mm and will rent it for £1mm a year over 50 years?

 

Commercially we ain't great, £9.2mm revenue compare that to Spurs with £28.7mm.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Kenwrights consortium bought 68% of the club for £20mm in 1999, giving it a valuation at that time of £29.4mm. Since then a £30mm loan was secured from Bear Sterns which will cost the club £68mm over the term of 25 years (£4mm a year just on interest). In that time we have bought finch farm (the land) sold it to a development company for £8mm and will rent it for £1mm a year over 50 years?

 

Commercially we ain't great, £9.2mm revenue compare that to Spurs with £28.7mm.

 

 

I must admit I didnt realise the loan was so expensive, I thought they had just restructured the loans so they didnt have to pay so much interest, or are those the figures after the restructuring?

 

But basically going from that we have still got the same assets we had before BK took over with the exception of the ongoing sale of Bellefield and the quality of the assets we have running around Goodison on a Saturday afternoon. So if I am understanding that correctly it seems to me like we are doing ok

 

Bit confused by the commercial figures you quoted, finance never was my strong point! What are those figures from?

I wouldnt expect us to ba able to compete with Spurs commercailly anyway seeing as though they have a good stadium with plenty of hospitality facilities and ther based in the middle of London

 

When I was saying the retail was growing I was reffering to the annual turnover, I realise that isnt profit but still encouraging all the same

Edited November 10, 2010 by duncanmckenzieismagic

[Hafnia]

I must admit I didnt realise the loan was so expensive, I thought they had just restructured the loans so they didnt have to pay so much interest, or are those the figures after the restructuring?

 

But basically going from that we have still got the same assets we had before BK took over with the exception of the ongoing sale of Bellefield and the quality of the assets we have running around Goodison on a Saturday afternoon. So if I am understanding that correctly it seems to me like we are doing ok

 

Bit confused by the commercial figures you quoted, finance never was my strong point! What are those figures from?

I wouldnt expect us to ba able to compete with Spurs commercailly anyway seeing as though they have a good stadium with plenty of hospitality facilities and ther based in the middle of London

 

When I was saying the retail was growing I was reffering to the annual turnover, I realise that isnt profit but still encouraging all the same

 

Admittedly spurs are run very well commercially, however they are a similar club in size and history something we should aim for. We are making progress commercially but we have some ground to make up.

 

Unfortunately the money sitting in the bank accounts of the main shareholders is not being used, the club is leveraging its funding through loans against its name. Pretty much a similar scenario we have seen elsewhere. The reality is the share prices will be way more thsn what they acquired them for, why not use the collateral so to speak?