andydray Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 All the best to David and good luck to him, but I cant help but feel like maybe Kenwright has to go. When Ferguson joined Man Utd, who were they, they were no one. If Kenwright had of given David what he needed, maybe, just maybe, Moyes would have stayed and turned Goodison back into the fortress it was in the 80's and give Old Trafford a run for its money. But no, Kenwight gave him next to nothing, turned down investment after investment because the people with the money weren't interested in Everton enough. Well done Kenwright for driving the best manager in the world away through bad business. My concern is how many players are gonna leave, I cant see Baines stayin, he'll be in a United top by January at the latest. Sad sad times. COYB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 All the best to David and good luck to him, but I cant help but feel like maybe Kenwright has to go. When Ferguson joined Man Utd, who were they, they were no one. If Kenwright had of given David what he needed, maybe, just maybe, Moyes would have stayed and turned Goodison back into the fortress it was in the 80's and give Old Trafford a run for its money. But no, Kenwight gave him next to nothing, turned down investment after investment because the people with the money weren't interested in Everton enough. Well done Kenwright for driving the best manager in the world away through bad business. My concern is how many players are gonna leave, I cant see Baines stayin, he'll be in a United top by January at the latest. Sad sad times. COYB after 11 years. With 3 record signings. Hiring Moyes in the 1st place... Utd won their money during a completely different era of football. damn you Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydray Posted May 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 after 11 years. With 3 record signings. Hiring Moyes in the 1st place... Utd won their money during a completely different era of football. damn you Bill United won all their money through the Murdock era, sky, that money is still there to be won, but you have to put something in to get something back out. Kenwright hasn't done that, he's sold to buy, thats crap, Ferguson sold when a player was of no use to him any more. KENWRIGHT OUT thats waht I say!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 (edited) United won all their money through the Murdock era, sky, that money is still there to be won, but you have to put something in to get something back out. Kenwright hasn't done that, he's sold to buy, thats crap, Ferguson sold when a player was of no use to him any more. KENWRIGHT OUT thats waht I say!!! RvN, Ronaldo, Beckham? pretty sure they were all still world class when they were sold. Buying to sell is good business. I would be interested to know how much Utd put in to get there repeated success (not including prize money) Dont get me wrong, the board have made big mistakes but I still think Kenwright is the best person for the job. If you want further background on this ongoing debates, you can look through the many threads http://www.toffeetalk.com/index.php?app=core&module=search§ion=search&do=search&fromsearch=1 Welcome to the forum by the way Edited May 10, 2013 by Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydray Posted May 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 thankyou for the welcome matt, sorry I didnt have time to say hi in the introduction thread, I just really needed to get it off my chest. Its buggin the hell out of me. I hate united, i hate the fact that DM has been waiting for this for years, Kenwright knew he had to do somethig to keep him. And now, just as were getting there, he buggers off. I feel sick about it. I quite like the thought of Laudrup coming, but I honestly think it'll be Martinez, back to having a 2 year manager routine, back of the net, get in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 thankyou for the welcome matt, sorry I didnt have time to say hi in the introduction thread, I just really needed to get it off my chest. Its buggin the hell out of me. I hate united, i hate the fact that DM has been waiting for this for years, Kenwright knew he had to do somethig to keep him. And now, just as were getting there, he buggers off. I feel sick about it. I quite like the thought of Laudrup coming, but I honestly think it'll be Martinez, back to having a 2 year manager routine, back of the net, get in. its been reported that the new contract has been there for months, it was all in Moyes hands. He was waiting for a better offer, and it came. Not much more BK couldve done. I understand the sick feeling, but if there is someone to blame here (I dont believe there is) its Moyes for not committing earlier. Whoever comes in will be of a similar midset to Moyes, in that he will be best for the long term rather than immediate success (ala Moyes to Utd, Lambert to Villa, Rodgers to the Shite even). They have gone there for the long term - Utd because they want to carry on as Fergie set up, and Villa/Liverpool because they realised they need stability. I reckon the next appointment will be someone who can fit that profile, and for all the shit BK gets for being an emotional fan, its one of our strongest assets at this moment - hopefully it will mean we wont be sold down the river with a MON, Hughes, Lennon or Bruce... GoodisonRoad 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydray Posted May 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 I disagree with it bieng DM's decision. If BK had accepted just 1 of the offers of investment, maybe DM would have had somethig to work with. If we were pushing for 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th every season, and with all the cash that comes from being in the champions league, why woud he want to leave. I wouldn't!! David could have been the next SAF, but now he's forever gonna be in SAF's shadow and constantly gonna be compared to him. I think he'll fail in comparrison and wish he had never moved. Maybe I am wrong, but surely anybody would feel more proud of creating a massive achievement than trying to continue someone elses. Im not for 1 minute saying that DM hasn't achieved by creating a better team than when he took over in 2002, but we aint won anything have we, we've climbed the table by say 10 positions, and we are no longer considered as a relegation team at the start of a season, but thats it. In a way, Joe Royal achieved more with much less. Its a crazy old game. COYB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 I would say it's unfair to compare what has happened here to what has happened at Man U over the past twenty years. Even the most ardent EFC fans will tell you that even when Fergie took over at Man U and they nearly got relegated that same season ( if i remember right they went something like 20 games without a win ), they were still classed as one of the biggest clubs in europe. Yes we had our spells but we could not compare with the likes of Man U, Barca and RM as far as global apeal and brand name went. They were always going to have the financial muscle over teams like us. We were the honest mans team. I really dont blame BK and i think others should put thier anger into perspective! we are angry that we have lost a manager that has brought us out of mediocrity and gave us a solid foundation and the chance to build and go forward. That manager was hired and supported by BK. I agree that maybe BK has shown a bit of naivety in letting this go down to the wire, but it could also have been a last gasp effort to sow support to a manager that in his heart he knew would be leaving. To show trust and stand by your own morals and beliefs through adversity shows courage and strength. Maybe not what is needed of a modern day chairman but what i hope Everton believe in till the end of time. Matt and Sibdane 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 I disagree with it bieng DM's decision. If BK had accepted just 1 of the offers of investment, maybe DM would have had somethig to work with. If we were pushing for 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th every season, and with all the cash that comes from being in the champions league, why woud he want to leave. I wouldn't!! David could have been the next SAF, but now he's forever gonna be in SAF's shadow and constantly gonna be compared to him. I think he'll fail in comparrison and wish he had never moved. Maybe I am wrong, but surely anybody would feel more proud of creating a massive achievement than trying to continue someone elses. Im not for 1 minute saying that DM hasn't achieved by creating a better team than when he took over in 2002, but we aint won anything have we, we've climbed the table by say 10 positions, and we are no longer considered as a relegation team at the start of a season, but thats it. In a way, Joe Royal achieved more with much less. Its a crazy old game. COYB Moyes admitted that talks were progressing behind the scenes. With new TV money coming in, there was going to be cash to spend. Moyes took the seat at the biggest club in football. No amount of money wouldve distracted him from that. Ive said it a few times now, I think he will be back in 2 years time. andydray and pete0 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydray Posted May 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 Its the same mentality as selling top players to buy unproven semi decent players. We are just a training grond for the top teams. Rooney, Lescott, Arteta, Rodwell the list is endless, and now our manager has been swipped from under us. We will never break into the top 4 with the "Train to Sell" attitude, only BK can agree to sell a player in contract and then agree to allow the manger to use those funds gained, but if there's no 1 to buy, what can yhe do. Baines and Fellaini are almost certainly gonna go, who replaces Baines...Cole, I very much doubt that, Im not the biggest fan of Fellaini due to his attitude, but I dont want to see him go. Martinez, I hope not, Laudrup, I doubt he'll want to leave Swansea. That doesn't leave much. Mark Hughes, bet ya. Nightmare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 But you also need to have your feet on the ground mate. Many clubs have tried to push forward fast and have failed miserably, look at the likes of Blackburn. With the finances we have the fact is we need to sell to buy, and over the last 10 years we have been succesful in selling our bigger players and improving the squad. Use one of your examples...rodders...we sold him and brought Mirallas. That is great business. Same can be said for Rooney and the rest. I do understand your frustration but i would rather us improve with a solid foundation that have one exciting season that sees us brought out by a group of Monkey's, spend a load of cash on overrated players and then fight against relegation the next season. How much money did Sunderland spend last year? Baines i agree with, that will be our biggest and most upsetting loss. But even then we have Garbutt who is very highly rated. Felly? maybe Barkley gets more of a look in. We do have options and lets not forget that seeling those two should bring in the best part of 40Million. What we have done over the last ten years is buy small...sell big and get that huge debt down. By doing this we should be in a position soon that will appeal to real investors and not groups that just want to make a quick buck and strangle our beloved club. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 Its the same mentality as selling top players to buy unproven semi decent players. We are just a training grond for the top teams. Rooney, Lescott, Arteta, Rodwell the list is endless, and now our manager has been swipped from under us. We will never break into the top 4 with the "Train to Sell" attitude, only BK can agree to sell a player in contract and then agree to allow the manger to use those funds gained, but if there's no 1 to buy, what can yhe do. Baines and Fellaini are almost certainly gonna go, who replaces Baines...Cole, I very much doubt that, Im not the biggest fan of Fellaini due to his attitude, but I dont want to see him go. Martinez, I hope not, Laudrup, I doubt he'll want to leave Swansea. That doesn't leave much. Mark Hughes, bet ya. Nightmare. You and Hafnia (another member here) will get on very well We did break into the top 4. We were very close on doing it more that once. Moyes had full control over who came in and who went out. BK might have signed the contracts and deals, but they were approved and organized by Moyes. Baines + Felli = 40m (is the rumour, would expect more). + 20m TV money.... pay of some bank stuff and say 50m to play with. Luke Shaw to replace Baines wouldnt be too bad, for Felli.... dunno. but theres plenty of money to play with this summer (compared to the past!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 Its the same mentality as selling top players to buy unproven semi decent players. We are just a training grond for the top teams. Rooney, Lescott, Arteta, Rodwell the list is endless, and now our manager has been swipped from under us. Pretty much the whole list for the last decade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydray Posted May 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 I do agree with you mate, to a degree. All of that was through DM's vision in young and distant players. Not many managers have that vision. Bk was lucky to have DM ther to spend the pitance that BK allowed him to. The 40 million we may raise through selling LB and MF, we can only thank DM for, because without his input into the 2 of them, they wouldn't be worth half of that. My concern is, will the next manager squander the 40 mill, will all of the 40 be available to him(I doubt it), and how long is it gonna take to get any sort of balance back into the team after such an overhawl. The modern game does not allow for such interfierance without it causing harm. Sorry for being so negative about it all, I dont wish to pis5 people off for ripping into BK, we are lucky to have a passionate chairman, it is rare in the game today, but is there a place for it any more, I;m not sure. Maybe a step back is what he needs to do and allow some cash to flow in from the "monkeys". pete0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 I'm not one for this whole "broken the clubs transfer record 3 times" it's a a completely flawed statistic. The statistic should be: Transfer fee / Annual turnover I pay more for a pint a lager now than I ever have done, £3.10 - however I can afford to drink more than when it was £1.50 a pint. We have championship level directors running the 4th most succesful club in England. Kenwright has had his go, he's had a miracle worker covering his failing for too long. andydray 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 no need to apologise mate, your doing it in the right way and just airing your frustration and opinion and least you are listening to others opinions, which is more than i can say for most of us haha! My hope is that we bring in someone who BK will treat with the same respect and let them exercise thier own vision of what they want in the team. My worry is that BK wont give another manager the same control as he did moyes. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 Would you like us to accept the next reasonable offer or would you want BK to wait for the right offer though? Granted the right offer may never come. I am torn between waiting for a great offer or letting a decent offer take the reins and riding the storm to see what comes out the other side. But i cant help but have massive respect for a chairman that has stayed a fan. Agreed he cant move us on, but its been refreshing nonetheless. Matt and pete0 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 I'm not one for this whole "broken the clubs transfer record 3 times" it's a a completely flawed statistic. The statistic should be: Transfer fee / Annual turnover I pay more for a pint a lager now than I ever have done, £3.10 - however I can afford to drink more than when it was £1.50 a pint. We have championship level directors running the 4th most succesful club in England. Kenwright has had his go, he's had a miracle worker covering his failing for too long. You dont like the transfer record part because it counters your arguments against. It is fact, deal with it. Likewise, the statistic you propose conveniently supports your stance. Balance your argument Haf, will be more credible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 no need to apologise mate, your doing it in the right way and just airing your frustration and opinion and least you are listening to others opinions, which is more than i can say for most of us haha! My hope is that we bring in someone who BK will treat with the same respect and let them exercise thier own vision of what they want in the team. My worry is that BK wont give another manager the same control as he did moyes. Not straight away, and rightly so. That trust needs to be earned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydray Posted May 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 Hello Hafnia, ive been told we'llget on quite well. I fully agree with what you say, he;s had his go, it didn't fully work, move on. Shukes, is there another manager out ther that any of us would feel comortable with. Does any1 agree that Laudup has to be BK main objective. I hope he is, I cant stand Martinez and I dont believe that O'Neil has the minerals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 Hello Hafnia, ive been told we'llget on quite well. I fully agree with what you say, he;s had his go, it didn't fully work, move on. Shukes, is there another manager out ther that any of us would feel comortable with. Does any1 agree that Laudup has to be BK main objective. I hope he is, I cant stand Martinez and I dont believe that O'Neil has the minerals. I would love Laudrup to be honest. Martinez, wouldnt be too bad. Nice football. Di'Canio, although not setting the world on fire at Sunderland i would still be happy with this one. Big name and would attract players. O'Neil, no f***ing way! would bleed us dry and f off when things got tough. Lennon, no thanks. Mourihno, Dreaming! but a nice dream. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydray Posted May 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 What ever happened to "The School of Science" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 You know what would make me happiest? A manager to come in and build our young players into the team. We have some young players coming through that have really good technical skills and just need rounding off. Lets spend a year honing these up in the first team and then build on them the next season. A manager who can come in and build belief like DM did. Romey 1878, Sibdane and Matt 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydray Posted May 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 oo rar. Laudrup. Come on Bill, make him an offer he cannot refuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 You dont like the transfer record part because it counters your arguments against. It is fact, deal with it. Likewise, the statistic you propose conveniently supports your stance. Balance your argument Haf, will be more credible What are you wittering on about fact and deal with it??? Seems you like to fall for Elstone spin? Do you read the Daily Express?. No I don't like the transfer record argument because i'm a statistician (from an excel modelling and M.I reporting perpective) anything to do with costs/revenue over time needs to be normalised to account for inflation and other external factors. If I went into a management meeting without normalising the data I would get laughed at. You can try and get stats to work for you if you want, but don't expect me to take the headline/spin. A £5 birthday present off someone who earns £100 a week is far more generous that a £100 gift off a multi millionaire. Relative to income our transfer spend is at an all time low - now is that spin or is it a fact??? andydray and Sibdane 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydray Posted May 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 http://www.transferleague.co.uk/premiership-transfers/everton-transfers.html interesting reading. give it a quick look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 (edited) What are you wittering on about fact and deal with it??? Seems you like to fall for Elstone spin? Do you read the Daily Express?. No I don't like the transfer record argument because i'm a statistician (from an excel modelling and M.I reporting perpective) anything to do with costs/revenue over time needs to be normalised to account for inflation and other external factors. If I went into a management meeting without normalising the data I would get laughed at. You can try and get stats to work for you if you want, but don't expect me to take the headline/spin. A £5 birthday present off someone who earns £100 a week is far more generous that a £100 gift off a multi millionaire. Relative to income our transfer spend is at an all time low - now is that spin or is it a fact??? Since Kenwright has been chairman, Everton have had 3 record signings - Johnson, Yak and Felli. Wasnt Beattie a record deal too? anyway, its that simple and like it or not, its part of the good (albeit relatively little good) that the Kenwright reign has done. What you seem to not understand, is that I agree with a lot of what you write, but the fact you cant, and seemingly flatout refuse to present a balanced argument just takes anyway any credibility (in my eyes). I dont like Elstone, I dont do the spin (and yes, your last little question is spin, from you), I look at the facts and prepare a balanced opinion. If I went into a management meeting with all the facts but refusing to accept some of them because Ive made up my mind, Id be laughed at. Our transfer spend maybe relatively low. But we have the best team ive ever seen and that has cost us in wages (taking up most of our income, affecting our transfer budget). Its also happened under Kenwrights reign. How it happened was not my point (there I agree with you), but it did happen. Edited May 10, 2013 by Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 andy, I moved the Laudrup thing to the potential managers thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydray Posted May 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 and this Former Everton midfielder Mickey Thomas has tipped Cardiff City manager Malky Mackay to succeed David Moyes at Goodison Park. Moyes will take over from Sir Alex Ferguson at Manchester United in July. Fellow Scotsman Mackay, who guided Cardiff to the Championship title, is among the names linked with the Everton job. "Malky Mackay, I've been told, is a strong candidate for that job," Thomas told BBC Wales Sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 Don't get the whole transfer kitty argument, Wenger has turned a profit, winning titles and financing a new stadium. Moyes has delivered with the wage budget he's been granted, a competent achievement getting us to 7th every year. As long as we avoid the idiots like O'Neil, Redknapp, Hughes ect. the club will be fine. If we get someone with a bit more tactical nous and winner's mentality we may even progress no the next level, something that was never going to happen under Moyes, Sibdane 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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