t.richards Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Coming from a Newcastle fan here, the simple question is - what was the opinion of David Moyes after your 17th finish in 2004? Alan Pardew has just been given the all clear to be in charge of Newcastle next season, and it seems the clear the owner is very keen on providing a stability to the club - stability that has been so revered around England after seeing what Wenger, SAF and David Moyes have done in their time. But I'm of a firm belief that stability must be earned, and cannot be handed out in a defiant act to relieve a manager of his duties. This season just finished has been nothing short of dreadful in my opinion, and thousands more fans of Newcastle United - and we were firmly of the belief that Pardew's time had run it's course and should have been sacked this summer - not just because he deserved the sack, that moving on from him was the right thing to do mainly because of the potential candidates that could have been approached to take over - Rafael Benitez, Roberto Martinez being two that I'd start with. Some may point to the 5th place finish that Pardew 'masterminded' in 2011/12 but fans that watched that side week in, week out would tell you that finishing 5th was not just an over-achievement, but was more noise than sound. Pardew relied on high spirits, great luck regarding to injuries, and a clear over reliance on individual brilliance - never have we scored so many flukes, worldies in a season, and never have we ridden our luck to such effect. The 5th place finish wasn't achieved through being technically and tactically better than 15 sides that year I don't believe. Therefore, when taking into account the season just gone I see that very early on it was simple what happens when luck runs out, and your fortune goes full circle and maybe a bit more. Yes, we've struggled with injuries, and a lack of investment in the squad before the start of the season left us lying bare to the rigors that a Europa League campaign can have on a squad, and injuries to key personal - but many fans see past these 'reasons' as more 'excuses'. Stability is something that every club must want, and I believe aims for - as the example of the club I am talking to here is no clearer; but the stability that keeping Pardew at Newcastle United will have a debilitating affect on the club, and to the direction that it's heading in. The football that Pardew has this side playing, I would say has been the single worst over the course of a 38 game season - one dimensional, direct, overly defensive whilst not actually providing a tight defensive unit, and each and every player looks to be regressing at a frightening nature. I, and many other fans struggle to name a single player in the squad that has improved under working with Pardew and his coaching set-up. He continued to sight to injuries, Europa League as to reasons why he is fielding a weakend line up, and why that side has been outplayed, outrun and beaten - but my issue is, why are there eleven players on that field that are not playing to their strengths, and to the top end of their potentials. If that weakend side are doing that, and then come off the beaten side - fair enough; but that's never been the case. These are but a handful or reasons why I fear for the stability being forced upon my club - so I'm looking for views that you would have had of David Moyes back in 2004 after your club finished a place above relegation. Hindsight is wonderful - but could you have forseen the next eight years of Moyes' time at your club back in 2004? How close was Moyes to being sacked back in 2004 after the 17th place finish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 I don't think he ever came close to being sacked, there was a stage where we lost six consecutive games in 2005 and there was still no threat of sacking him. Some people did call for him to go but I seem to remember most people wanting him Moyes to stay. There were rumours the players were being worked too hard by Moyes and some players were unhappy with training but that's all I can remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalziel Kane Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 We did do well under Moyes in 2002/03, only missing out on a european place by a close shave towards the end. The next season of course was disappointing (although the success of 2004/05 and champions league soccer more than componsated) but Moyes had only been in the job for two years at the time in question. Sure the relevant people were prepared to give him a chance, and in retrospect, it was the right thing to do. Moyes was under no immediate threat of being dismissed at the time in question, and Yes in hindsight, no-one could have seen what was to come in the subsequent years. Moyes did well for the most part in the league, made the club recognized once again, but as this thread suggests, it wasn't all one way traffic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 I think Moyes 'was' in danger by his own admission, but Kenwright gave him time. The worst thing your club did was to issue a ridiculously long contract to Pardew. The saying "Always keep them on their toes" isn't there for the sake of it. You have some good players in your side, but for me, sacking Hughton was poor. You were very good when you came back up, but then set about getting rid of the smaller named players from the starting eleven, not to mention selling Carroll. I went from admiring Newcastle to wanting them to fail. Your club have a bad habit of shitting on managers, so whether anybody likes Pardew or not, you have to start giving guys a chance, and might as well bite the bullet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 I cant remember that well to be honest, but I think that people could generally see that Moyes was building something even if the results werent coming. The problem with Pardew is that, he has probably had one season where he has over achieved with the team he has. He has bought some great players but doesnt really look like he knows how to use them at times. I get the feeling that feeding his ego is more to him than the team playing well, and like you say, you cant rely on worldies every week. Avin probably hits the nail on the head with the contract. 6 years was a crazy over-reaction to a one off. Even more so because the foundations were built by a different manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 I dont think Moyes was anywhere near getting the sack and its always good when you provide the right coach with the right amount of time. If Pardew got sacked after this season and if Everton signed him id be destroyed. He is not good enough for Everton OR Newcastle in my opinion. Terrible on the transfer market. (yes he bought a few good players in the summer but how much did he spend and how much have those players achieved?) He turned Newcastle into a french league club. And hes a tw*t Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcirony Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 (edited) I think Pardew saying "we are operating in a different league to Everton" really pissed off alot of Everton fans and Moyes himself even made a sarcy comment about it this season. He's not the most popular man in the area! I'm a firm believer in giving mangers a chance and it paid off with Moyes, but Pardew is just an egotistical knob in my opinion. I don't think he even controls transfers into the club, by the looks of January signings you made, players were flying in and like a kid who has too many presents as Christmas, he didn't know what to do with them or have enough time to really appreciate and understand what he got. As someone said earlier, an 8 year contract is ludicrous. You can't blame Pardew for that, he's just thrown out a silly figure and got it! What were the club thinking?! it's completely unheard of and frankly it's disrespectful to the fans and club that he would hold them to such a financial commitment and not just say, " look lets review after 4 years". Barmy. EDIT: Realised I didn't really mention Moyes. I think it's clear that because he was given the opportunity to make amends after a poor season, it made him more determined to get it right and that seemed to seep into the players, creating the so called "dogs of war" attitude. Sadly, you can never guarantee this will happen as we had the type of players at the time that would run through brick walls for the club. I'm not sure whether the current squad at Newcastle, bar a few players, would do the same for the club or Pardew. Maybe in that case you'd need a new manager with a new philosophy to suit the squad you have - probably Martinez. Edited May 24, 2013 by MatthewT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Pardew has a mega long contract for this reason (apparently). He owes alot of money to the casino chums of the Newcastle owner, he is working off his debt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badaids Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Pardew has a mega long contract for this reason (apparently). He owes alot of money to the casino chums of the Newcastle owner, he is working off his debt. I don't really understand why this means the Newcastle owner (Ashley?) would give Pardew a long contract. Unless Ashley was scared of his so called 'chums', or wanted to use it as a way to siphon money from Newcastle to the Casino. But he's only do that if he had a stake in the casino. But that would be robbing peter to pay Paul. Surely, he'd have been far better off kicking the twat into touch, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Coming from a Newcastle fan here, the simple question is - what was the opinion of David Moyes after your 17th finish in 2004? Alan Pardew has just been given the all clear to be in charge of Newcastle next season, and it seems the clear the owner is very keen on providing a stability to the club - stability that has been so revered around England after seeing what Wenger, SAF and David Moyes have done in their time. But I'm of a firm belief that stability must be earned, and cannot be handed out in a defiant act to relieve a manager of his duties. This season just finished has been nothing short of dreadful in my opinion, and thousands more fans of Newcastle United - and we were firmly of the belief that Pardew's time had run it's course and should have been sacked this summer - not just because he deserved the sack, that moving on from him was the right thing to do mainly because of the potential candidates that could have been approached to take over - Rafael Benitez, Roberto Martinez being two that I'd start with. Some may point to the 5th place finish that Pardew 'masterminded' in 2011/12 but fans that watched that side week in, week out would tell you that finishing 5th was not just an over-achievement, but was more noise than sound. Pardew relied on high spirits, great luck regarding to injuries, and a clear over reliance on individual brilliance - never have we scored so many flukes, worldies in a season, and never have we ridden our luck to such effect. The 5th place finish wasn't achieved through being technically and tactically better than 15 sides that year I don't believe. Therefore, when taking into account the season just gone I see that very early on it was simple what happens when luck runs out, and your fortune goes full circle and maybe a bit more. Yes, we've struggled with injuries, and a lack of investment in the squad before the start of the season left us lying bare to the rigors that a Europa League campaign can have on a squad, and injuries to key personal - but many fans see past these 'reasons' as more 'excuses'. Stability is something that every club must want, and I believe aims for - as the example of the club I am talking to here is no clearer; but the stability that keeping Pardew at Newcastle United will have a debilitating affect on the club, and to the direction that it's heading in. The football that Pardew has this side playing, I would say has been the single worst over the course of a 38 game season - one dimensional, direct, overly defensive whilst not actually providing a tight defensive unit, and each and every player looks to be regressing at a frightening nature. I, and many other fans struggle to name a single player in the squad that has improved under working with Pardew and his coaching set-up. He continued to sight to injuries, Europa League as to reasons why he is fielding a weakend line up, and why that side has been outplayed, outrun and beaten - but my issue is, why are there eleven players on that field that are not playing to their strengths, and to the top end of their potentials. If that weakend side are doing that, and then come off the beaten side - fair enough; but that's never been the case. These are but a handful or reasons why I fear for the stability being forced upon my club - so I'm looking for views that you would have had of David Moyes back in 2004 after your club finished a place above relegation. Hindsight is wonderful - but could you have forseen the next eight years of Moyes' time at your club back in 2004? How close was Moyes to being sacked back in 2004 after the 17th place finish? Lol If it was upto some of the people in this forum Moyes could and should have been sacked everytime we conceded a corner, luckily our Chairman wasnt so trigger happy and gave him the time he needed to turn the side around Quinn31 and marcopaulo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 I remember that was a weird season. I think we played really well towards the beginning. Wasn't there a home game against Chelsea and we battered them but ended up losing. But towards the end of the season things just drifted and the players didn't seem to be bothered. Then the next season loads of the season previews said we'd finish bottom of the table but I wasn't at all worried as I know there was some decent players. The idea of them finishing bottom was a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodisonRoad Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Lol If it was upto some of the people in this forum Moyes could and should have been sacked everytime we conceded a corner, luckily our Chairman wasnt so trigger happy and gave him the time he needed to turn the side around Give it a rest Dunc, christ! Ive asked you this a couple of times now with no reply, have you ever actually criticised Moyes for ANYTHING? Its pathetic, if you dont like the "negative" attitude here, do one! All you seem to post is snidy remarks at how everyone here is a doom monger, when most people on here simply critisice where they see fit, like most people would. But your so far up Moyes'/Kenwrights arse you cant see that and take every little critisism as a "Moyes/kenwright out" post. Grow the fuck up. On topic, i think credit where credit is due in regards to Kenwright sticking with Moyes. I think a lot of people thought "here we go again" after the 17th finish, but like i said, credit to Kenwright. Thats where a chairman like Kenwright does pay off. As far as i know, Ashley doesnt have a relationship with Pardew anything like the standard Moyes has/had with kenwright. Obviously kenwright saw something special in moyes and stook with him. A chairman like Ashley would look at results and say "get rid", or may just not like the manager (see big sam). I think the stability your looking for stems from the chairman personally, not from the manager. But as you see with us, we have a guy who is all about the club without a pot to piss in, you's seem to have the money, but with a chairman who couldnt give 2 fucks (really) which is often the case with the chairmen who have money. In regards to Pardew, i think he's just an arogant prick and a shocking manager, but thats just me. Sideliner 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Give it a rest Dunc, christ! Ive asked you this a couple of times now with no reply, have you ever actually criticised Moyes for ANYTHING? Its pathetic, if you dont like the "negative" attitude here, do one! All you seem to post is snidy remarks at how everyone here is a doom monger, when most people on here simply critisice where they see fit, like most people would. But your so far up Moyes'/Kenwrights arse you cant see that and take every little critisism as a "Moyes/kenwright out" post. Grow the fuck up. On topic, i think credit where credit is due in regards to Kenwright sticking with Moyes. I think a lot of people thought "here we go again" after the 17th finish, but like i said, credit to Kenwright. Thats where a chairman like Kenwright does pay off. As far as i know, Ashley doesnt have a relationship with Pardew anything like the standard Moyes has/had with kenwright. Obviously kenwright saw something special in moyes and stook with him. A chairman like Ashley would look at results and say "get rid", or may just not like the manager (see big sam). I think the stability your looking for stems from the chairman personally, not from the manager. But as you see with us, we have a guy who is all about the club without a pot to piss in, you's seem to have the money, but with a chairman who couldnt give 2 fucks (really) which is often the case with the chairmen who have money. In regards to Pardew, i think he's just an arogant prick and a shocking manager, but thats just me. Well for the record Im not even pro Kenwright My stance on him , and I have said this before, is that I will always be grateful to him for rescuing the club from Peter Johnson. I also firmly believe that he is a passionate Evertonian and that he genuinely wants what is best for the club. However I do think he is naive and that he has made some well documented colossally bad decisions since being Chairman. I don't think he has the nouse or the money to take us forward and I think it will be a good day for Everton Football Club when he steps down But to call him a liar is going too far IMO. Moyes on the other hand I am a fan of. I think he is the best possible manager that we could have had and I honestly don't believe any manager that we get next will do any better than him or even as good as him without significant investment That's not to say that he doesn't have his faults and I have acknowledged that there is definitely a case to answer that we have always bottled it on the big stage. I have also criticised his constant use of Naismith. There are obviously times when he has got it wrong, laying Neville ahead of Gibson in the FA Cup against Wigan springs to mind, and my biggest bug bear is that he has never taken the League Cup seriously Some people in here would have you believe that Moyes is tactically inept, only picks his favourites, is too negative,never gives youth a chance, cant make subs and has no plan B ( they are all quotes not something that Im making up) yet he has just landed one of the top jobs in world football. To me that doesn't add up and me defending him doesn't strike me as being childish, somebody has got it wrong somewhere and I don't think its me! I have only ever accused one person in here of being a doom monger ( Haf ) so that is far removed from me saying everyone in here is a doom merchant. I do find it laughable at some of the comments I read in here at times but people are entitled to their opinion just as Im entitled to mine so I couldn't really give two fucks whether you think my remarks are snidy or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodisonRoad Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Well for the record Im not even pro Kenwright My stance on him , and I have said this before, is that I will always be grateful to him for rescuing the club from Peter Johnson. I also firmly believe that he is a passionate Evertonian and that he genuinely wants what is best for the club. However I do think he is naive and that he has made some well documented colossally bad decisions since being Chairman. I don't think he has the nouse or the money to take us forward and I think it will be a good day for Everton Football Club when he steps down But to call him a liar is going too far IMO. Moyes on the other hand I am a fan of. I think he is the best possible manager that we could have had and I honestly don't believe any manager that we get next will do any better than him or even as good as him without significant investment That's not to say that he doesn't have his faults and I have acknowledged that there is definitely a case to answer that we have always bottled it on the big stage. I have also criticised his constant use of Naismith. There are obviously times when he has got it wrong, laying Neville ahead of Gibson in the FA Cup against Wigan springs to mind, and my biggest bug bear is that he has never taken the League Cup seriously Some people in here would have you believe that Moyes is tactically inept, only picks his favourites, is too negative,never gives youth a chance, cant make subs and has no plan B ( they are all quotes not something that Im making up) yet he has just landed one of the top jobs in world football. To me that doesn't add up and me defending him doesn't strike me as being childish, somebody has got it wrong somewhere and I don't think its me! I have only ever accused one person in here of being a doom monger ( Haf ) so that is far removed from me saying everyone in here is a doom merchant. I do find it laughable at some of the comments I read in here at times but people are entitled to their opinion just as Im entitled to mine so I couldn't really give two fucks whether you think my remarks are snidy or not A tad contradictory but okay. See on the whole, I think we pretty much share the same views, as everything you've said there is pretty much spot on in my book. The way you constantly have these little digs though "Some people in here would have you believe that Moyes is tactically inept, only picks his favourites, is too negative, never gives youth a chance, cant make subs and has no plan b" you can see why i came to the conclusion that you were a bit of a "happy clapper". People are going to criticise, because everyone has those opinions. The only opinions you ever seem to give are that everyone is wrong and Moyes/Kenwright/The board or whoever is perfect. I dont blame you for sticking up for moyes at all, but there should be a balance. When someone criticise's him all you seem to do is crawl out the woodwork and start defending him again saying things like "some people on here" and all that shite, when we all know he is far from perfect. I think i've seen you have a dig once when he brought on Naismith and even then it was something as simple as "thats a bit odd". Im not saying you should start slating Everton to the degree Haf sometimes does, but for gods sake have a bit of balance to your arguments! (thats the childish bit!) I admit he has done a fantastic job for us, he is one of the clubs greats, but he has got a hell of a challenge on at Utd and their fans wont be half as patient with some of his flaws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 All that fighting and you both feel the same. Best of friends after all that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 A tad contradictory but okay. See on the whole, I think we pretty much share the same views, as everything you've said there is pretty much spot on in my book. The way you constantly have these little digs though "Some people in here would have you believe that Moyes is tactically inept, only picks his favourites, is too negative, never gives youth a chance, cant make subs and has no plan b" you can see why i came to the conclusion that you were a bit of a "happy clapper". People are going to criticise, because everyone has those opinions. The only opinions you ever seem to give are that everyone is wrong and Moyes/Kenwright/The board or whoever is perfect. I dont blame you for sticking up for moyes at all, but there should be a balance. When someone criticise's him all you seem to do is crawl out the woodwork and start defending him again saying things like "some people on here" and all that shite, when we all know he is far from perfect. I think i've seen you have a dig once when he brought on Naismith and even then it was something as simple as "thats a bit odd". Im not saying you should start slating Everton to the degree Haf sometimes does, but for gods sake have a bit of balance to your arguments! (thats the childish bit!) I admit he has done a fantastic job for us, he is one of the clubs greats, but he has got a hell of a challenge on at Utd and their fans wont be half as patient with some of his flaws. When I first started coming in here around 2010 ish everyone was going way over the top with positivity and saying we were going to stroll into the top 4 and all the riches that Champions League football brings. I disagreed and said we had no chance because the board hadn't given Moyes the money to address our problem areas ( CF, RW & RB ) and I said I thought we had hit a ceiling and were if anything going backwards. I also had a pop at them for not getting Arteta and Piennar tied down and I was accused of being too negative Now we have come full circle and people are moaning non stop about Moyes and BK and I find myself constantly defending them because I feel some of the crap being said is way too negative and total bullshit and suddenly Im a happy clapper. The truth of the matter is Im probably somewhere in the middle ground. I don't think Kenwright can take us forward and I don't trust him to make the right decision with our new manager so I am very nervous about what will happen next. However some of the bollocks that's been said is unbelievable, He has been accused of hogging the limelight ala Dave Wheelan just because the Sky cameras were hounding him over the Moyes to United story. It was one of the biggest stories in world football, how was he supposed to avoid the cameras? Stuff like that and the comments I highlighted about Moyes are the reason I end up going on the defensive all the time Ive repeatedly said Moyes isn't perfect, what manager is? but as I also keep saying I just feel he is a damn sight better than some people in here give him credit for. That's not a sly dig at anyone that's just my opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodisonRoad Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 When I first started coming in here around 2010 ish everyone was going way over the top with positivity and saying we were going to stroll into the top 4 and all the riches that Champions League football brings. I disagreed and said we had no chance because the board hadn't given Moyes the money to address our problem areas ( CF, RW & RB ) and I said I thought we had hit a ceiling and were if anything going backwards. I also had a pop at them for not getting Arteta and Piennar tied down and I was accused of being too negative Now we have come full circle and people are moaning non stop about Moyes and BK and I find myself constantly defending them because I feel some of the crap being said is way too negative and total bullshit and suddenly Im a happy clapper. The truth of the matter is Im probably somewhere in the middle ground. I don't think Kenwright can take us forward and I don't trust him to make the right decision with our new manager so I am very nervous about what will happen next. However some of the bollocks that's been said is unbelievable, He has been accused of hogging the limelight ala Dave Wheelan just because the Sky cameras were hounding him over the Moyes to United story. It was one of the biggest stories in world football, how was he supposed to avoid the cameras? Stuff like that and the comments I highlighted about Moyes are the reason I end up going on the defensive all the time Ive repeatedly said Moyes isn't perfect, what manager is? but as I also keep saying I just feel he is a damn sight better than some people in here give him credit for. That's not a sly dig at anyone that's just my opinion Could have fooled me! Again, i pretty much agree with your views on the whole. I'm simply pointing out that whenever you post it always seem's to be in defence of Moyes/Kenwright/the club. If ever there is a discussion on for example; the new manager, you've not gone and posted in there that you dont trust Kenwright to make the right desicion and its the first im hearing that you dont think Kenwright can take us forward. They're obviously your views and you express them at your will, all im saying is take the good with the bad, Moyes is a great manager no doubting that, but lets be honest he has his fair share of downfalls yet i've never or very rarely seen you point them out, but i've seen you criticise others for doing so. Obviously thats where you think "some of the crap is way too negative". I think your views are pretty balanced personally from what you've just explained to me, but it took all this to get it out of you! from what you post, i would have never have got that. Personally, i think you and Haf are the same person. Just a person with a severe personality disorder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted May 25, 2013 Report Share Posted May 25, 2013 I also had a pop at them for not getting Arteta and Piennar tied down and I was accused of being too negative Arteta had signed a new five year deal on vastly inflated wages . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.