United fan in peace, in need of some information about Moyes

[Blue4Ever]

Is he a notoriously slow starter in the transfer window?

thats where he got the nickname dithering dave, its proved with martinez already it was always down to him when it come to players and we had many robbed from under our noses due to taking forever.

[Guest]

 

Sideliner, I appreciate you don't like Moyes, but lots of others here do, so can you at least try to get your facts right when slating him?

 

It wasn't long ago that Moyes was admired for his stance on youth, and has given numerous young players the opportunity to prove themselves over the years. It's important to remember though that throwing a youngster on to soon can be detrimental to their progress, and that's why many of our younger players were sent out on loan to gain experience.

 

Do you remember the Europa game against Bate Borisov?

 

Everton

• 01 Nash
• 02 Hibbert (Shkodran Mustafi 76)
• 31 Coleman
• 34 Shane Duffyyellow card
• 36 Bidwell
• 21 Osman (Craig 81)
• 26 Rodwell (Akpan 8)
• 29 Forshaw
• 22 Yakubu
• 35 Agard
• 37 Baxter

Substitutes

• 24 Howard,
• 32 Garbutt,
• 43 Shkodran Mustafi,
• 39 Akpan,
• 40 McAleny,
• 44 Craig,
• 45 Nsiala

 

He was often criticised by fans for playing the youngsters in the cups, so it's a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't sometimes.

Whats your point? One fucking game? you having a laugh? I loved Moyes but he isn't ours now so why the love in? He never bothered with the youth unless he HAD TO! I appreciate you like him as I do and he did a lot of good things but lets get it right

[Avinalaff]

Whats your point? One fucking game? you having a laugh? I loved Moyes but he isn't ours now so why the love in? He never bothered with the youth unless he HAD TO! I appreciate you like him as I do and he did a lot of good things but lets get it right

 

One game ? :dont know: Should I have documented every occasion to offer my point?

 

Also, why the hell can't an Everton fan still be full of admiration for David Moyes? There is an issue with this forum that because it is made up predominantly of a small number of posters, that those posters seem to think any majority opinion amongst them is the majority opinion of 'all' fans. It isn't. If I want to remain fond of Moyes, that shouldn't be an issue. He's only been gone a few weeks for Pete's sake.

[Guest]

 

One game ? :dont know: Should I have documented every occasion to offer my point?

 

Also, why the hell can't an Everton fan still be full of admiration for David Moyes? There is an issue with this forum that because it is made up predominantly of a small number of posters, that those posters seem to think any majority opinion amongst them is the majority opinion of 'all' fans. It isn't. If I want to remain fond of Moyes, that shouldn't be an issue. He's only been gone a few weeks for Pete's sake.

Im fond of him a lot but don't paint him out to be something he's not. Im 34 now my stepdad got me into everton when I was five. First game v Southampton Lineker hatrick . first season ticket under Harvey and watched Cottees hatrick against Newcastle, Ive witnessed the crap since then like many evertonians have before me . I loved Moyes past tense. He worked wonders for us but when it came to the crunch that whats gonna separate him from the great managers. Too deliberate

Edited July 13, 2013 by Tricky Trev

[Avinalaff]

Im fond of him a lot but don't paint him out to be something he's not. Im 34 now my stepdad got me into everton when I was five. First game v Southampton Lineker hatrick . first season ticket under Harvey and watched Cottees hatrick against Newcastle, Ive witnessed the crap since then like many evertonians have before me . I loved Moyes past tense. He worked wonders for us but when it came to the crunch that whats gonna separate him from the great managers. Too deliberate

 

Well, I'm a decade or so older, so have seen some shite management of our team too, including Kendall, and some good stuff too, including Kendall, and for me, Moyes has been the best of the lot, but that's my own opinion, and I don't consider silverware to be the epitome of success. The game is nowhere near as even a competition as it was when I first took an interest. I wish the guy well, and don't need to stop liking the guy just because he's left. I like Neil Warnock too for example, and many other managers, but then I see folk as people, and not just as names in a match programme.

[Cornish Steve]

This thread now reminds me of the Four Yorkshiremen.

 

Well, I'm 126, so have seen the worst shite management of our team, including McIntosh, Kelly, Carey, and Catterick. Me great aunt Obadiah's next-door neighbour's cousin's friend got me a ticket to watch Dixie Dean score 35 against ManU while suffering from a hamstring and torn ACL. But I loved Moyes so much more. I named my four sons after him and let him sleep with my wife every night.

[Avinalaff]

This thread now reminds me of the Four Yorkshiremen.

 

Well, I'm 126, so have seen the worst shite management of our team, including McIntosh, Kelly, Carey, and Catterick. Me great aunt Obadiah's next-door neighbour's cousin's friend got me a ticket to watch Dixie Dean score 35 against ManU while suffering from a hamstring and torn ACL. But I loved Moyes so much more. I named my four sons after him and let him sleep with my wife every night.

 

126? I passed 126 on the way up 'and' the way down once they'd run out of numbers, and the only chance we got to play a game of footy was if somebody was squashed by a Brontosaurus and their head was still intact. Kids nowadays don't know they're born. :shaking fist:

[Dalziel Kane]

I see the United fan wasn't too interested in any replies lol. Redcafe still have Ferguson on the forum banner. Superb administration.

 

LIverpool Mad still have Steven Gerrard holding the European Cup of all things, and don't they often accuse us of living in the past.

 

Ferguson's only vacated a few short weeks ago, give them time to get things in order.

 

Say again about this thread, in that what does the author need to know about Moyes that most will already be aware of. He was here for over 11 years, and in that time, needless to say, he would have attracted considerable attention from most other areas, inlcuding clubs and supporters, including transfer dealings for the most part and that Everton can be notorious slow to act during pre season and bringing names in.

[Cornish Steve]

 

126? I passed 126 on the way up 'and' the way down once they'd run out of numbers, and the only chance we got to play a game of footy was if somebody was squashed by a Brontosaurus and their head was still intact. Kids nowadays don't know they're born. :shaking fist:

 

Numbers? You had numbers? We had stripes whipped into our backs. A head? Luxury! We had to catch a T-Rex and cut off its balls if we wanted to play. :shaking fist:

:shaking fist:

[Sideliner]

Avinalaff I have criticized Moyes on many occasions because I do not think he is the best coach Everton has ever had or will ever have -

but I have never criticized you personally for always defending Moyes and appreciating everything he has done for this club -

so why criticize me personally for having a different point of view on Moyes which unfortunately is much more neagative than yours -

lets argue over the facts not the argument -

which youngsters did Moyes develop by giving them opportunities in the past season ? I say none - you say ...... ?

by the way I am more than a decade older than you just for the record since that seems to count for something - what I do not really know

[Hafnia]

Moyes developing youngsters is an absolute myth He's been fortunate enough to be given talent in the likes of Vaughan, anichebe, Rodwell, Rooney, etc and for me he hasn't really maximised them.

 

Barkley? Motm against QPR two years ago, what did he do apart from not trust him? He played veterans in the fa cup win last season instead of playing Duffy & Barkley despite the game being wrapped up. Mcmanaman released and Martinez developed him into a good talent who plays without fear.

[Matt]

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=groundhog+gif&client=safari&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=WZniUdHZKqTJ4AT6l4GoCg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=320&bih=356#biv=i%7C18%3Bd%7CgFC4B2X3rSzxjM%3A

[SimonButtle]

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=groundhog+gif&client=safari&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=WZniUdHZKqTJ4AT6l4GoCg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=320&bih=356#biv=i%7C18%3Bd%7CgFC4B2X3rSzxjM%3A

Some may say your "blowing him out of proportion" all the time is like groundhog day Matt. Moyes took us from a dark period under Smith and made us into a good solid team. We have taken part in deserved top 6 finishes including a top 4 finish earning us a CL place. However Time and time again season after season we sat back in games after going 1,2-0 up then completely fall to bits in the second half resulting in another draw. I think we should have finished in the CL at least 2/3 times under Moyes if it hadn't been for some of the draws. Cup competitions, the derby games. At times we could have done so much more imo. However Moyes deserves and gets full respect for doing what he has done under the stewardship of the Kenwright regime, there have been some great games and we have seen some great players under Moyes, he has been a good solid manager for the club at a relatively tough time and seen them through it, but to call him "great" and label him "one of the clubs best" is ever so slightly pushing it imo. At the end of the day its about opinions and no ones is right or wrong.

[Matt]

Some may say your "blowing him out of proportion" all the time is like groundhog day Matt.

 

Think you missed my point - another thread descending into "Moyes doesn't nurture youth". It is all about opinions, my opinion is that we've had this argument too many times with people not changing their stances...

 

Plus it's not even on topic!

[SimonButtle]

 

Think you missed my point - another thread descending into "Moyes doesn't nurture youth". It is all about opinions, my opinion is that we've had this argument too many times with people not changing their stances...

 

Plus it's not even on topic!

No it's not on topic and no i didn't miss your point i just forgot to mention a bit about the youth thing in my post I actually don't think it's as bad as people make out, yes he could have given a few more chances to some, but overall it's not so bad, and we have a healthy group coming through by all accounts.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Simon

[Guest]

 

Well, I'm a decade or so older, so have seen some shite management of our team too, including Kendall, and some good stuff too, including Kendall, and for me, Moyes has been the best of the lot, but that's my own opinion, and I don't consider silverware to be the epitome of success. The game is nowhere near as even a competition as it was when I first took an interest. I wish the guy well, and don't need to stop liking the guy just because he's left. I like Neil Warnock too for example, and many other managers, but then I see folk as people, and not just as names in a match programme.

Silverware wasn't the topic of discussion it was the fact that you highlighted that Moyes seemed to give youngsters a chance by naming one game that had nothing riding on it. Like Sideliner said name me one player apart from Rooney that Moyes has nurtured to the point that he is a standout in eleven years?

[Romey 1878]

If you think you've got any chance of signing Thiago, think again. Same goes for Bayern. And that's not because you've got moyes, but because he is going to be the next big thing for Barcelona, they won't let him go.

Ground swallowed you up yet, mate?

[Avinalaff]

Silverware wasn't the topic of discussion it was the fact that you highlighted that Moyes seemed to give youngsters a chance by naming one game that had nothing riding on it. Like Sideliner said name me one player apart from Rooney that Moyes has nurtured to the point that he is a standout in eleven years?

Jack Rodwell is getting games for the richest side in the world. Seamus Coleman is now one of the top RB's in the league. Baines was only 22 when he joined us. Anichebe is now looking a decent striker. Gosling was getting games in matches that counted. Barkley is close to being a great Prem player. Gueye and Baxter were both given opportunities. Sideliner knows sod all about our club, and starting to wonder about a few others. :dont know:

 

Edit: Vaughan was another.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Avinalaff

[GoodisonRoad]

Ground swallowed you up yet, mate?

Knew some nob would trace back through the posts and pull me up on it!

 

 

 

He's got to have a medical yet anyway!

 

 

 

 

Cant believe Barca have let him go. Very strange to me

[Romey 1878]

Knew some nob would trace back through the posts and pull me up on it!

 

 

 

He's got to have a medical yet anyway!

 

 

 

 

Cant believe Barca have let him go. Very strange to me

It was my pleasure .

 

Don't really think Barca had much choice when he wanted to go. Very little point in hanging on to a player who doesn't want to be there.

[Steve_E]

Barcelona had no say in the matter. He had a clause in his contract where he was available for €18m (excluding taxes) if he played in less than 60% of last season's games. They really fucked up in that respect cause they kept him on the bench for their last game of the season, if they had played him for just 1 minute that game his release clause would have been €90m.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Steve_E

[Romey 1878]

Barcelona had no say in the matter. He had a clause in his contract where he was available for 18m (excluding taxes) if he played in less than 60% of last season's games.

Didn't know that!

 

Sky are reporting the deal being around £20m.

[Steve_E]

 

i don’t get it! All we have to do is pay the stinking release clause and the player is ours right?!”that’s what you would think, however this is not the case in Spain. It’s not like Gotze’s transfer to Bayern where all the player had to do was activate the release clause and there’s no negotiations necessary.before I start on my summary of release clauses in Spain, I would like to say I have only learned about them recently so I will not dive into the finer details. I would have to know the Spanish language in order to do that.so here’s what you need to know about release clauses in Spain.

 

first of all, in Spain, La Liga players are obligated to have release clauses inserted into their contracts under Spanish law. As a result, clubs can arrange for a player’s release clause to be set quite high. In Thiago’s case, at the end of July his release clause rises to 90m euros. There is also another case to consider here. How release clauses are activated depends on whether or not a Spanish club comes in for the player.for instance, if Madrid meets Thiago’s buyout clause, if Thiago wishes to leave Barcelona for Madrid, Barcelona are forced to sign the release papers and Thiago now belongs to Madrid. Case closed. End of story. Unfortunately, this doesn’t work for foreign clubs. It’s much more complicated.foreign clubs actually have to negotiate with the selling club. This doesn’t mean a non-spanish club can’t activate the clause or the player can’t activate the buyout clause. It’s just not straightforward and here’s why.all the parties that are involved make the deal quite complicated. Tax authorities and lawyers have to check and make sure the deal is compliant with Fifa and Uefa codes of conduct, Spanish and EU contract law and of course, Spanish tax laws. Only then can the deal move forward.technically, if a non-spanish club is going to obtain the release papers from the selling club, the money has to be provided by the player. It’s a breach of contract so the player is literally buying out his contract allowing him to leave. The interpretation of the phrase “provided by” is vague and we saw this when Bayern Munich brought Javi Martinez from Bilbao. Bayern were given approval by Martinez to pay the money to the Spanish FA who act as intermediaries for these type of situations. The money was then given to Bilbao as compensation for losing Martinez. If Martinez had to pay for the clause himself, then he would be subject to income tax which could double the price.just to clarify, when the club meets the buyout clause, they can be subject to Vat(tax added onto the buyout clause) if it’s decided it should be applied. Who decides whether or not it’s applied I think falls at the discretion of the tax authorities. However, I don’t know with 100 certainty. In Bayern Munich’s case, the ruling was that they didn’t have to pay VAT because no services or goods were being exchanged. Some disagree with the decision and think that a VAT should been applied. I guess in Manchester United’s case, we have to pay the Vat. Another clarification is that since Bayern Munich paid the release clause with Martinez’s permission instead of on his behalf, they did not have to pay the income tax.what you may find surprising is that Spanish clubs usually do not exploit the buyout clause of other Spanish clubs. They choose not to because it hinders relations with the other club. You wouldn’t want the very same club coming back sometime later and taking one of your players by simply meeting the release clause. So instead, clubs usually choose to agree on a fee and carry on from there.so here’s the million dollar question, what does this mean for Manchester United en Thiago?

 

Here are a few scenarios) Thiago buys out his contract, Mufc pays release fee on his behalf and is now subject to income tax. (total fee: up to 40mb) Mufc triggers the buyout clause and most likely subject to Vat. (total fee: up to 25m euros due to parties involved)c) Mufc en Barca negotiate a fee to agree on. (total fee: could be between 18-24m euros depending on negotiations)we can essentially rule out scenario A as the deal could rise as high as 40m euros due to income tax. Scenario B is much more likely and if Mufc have gone along this route, we could be waiting for tax authorities and all relevant parties to sanction the deal. Also, there will be extra fees for the lawyers and tax officials involved. The agent will want his fair share too.if Mufc go with scenario C, it would be the most amicable way of going about the transfer. The release clause fee would essentially be used as a starting price for the two clubs to negotiate. Reports have said Barca are stalling the deal and it could be alluding to these type of negotiations. However, we don’t know what’s going at the moment and since both clubs have said essentially nothing about the deal, it’s hard to tell.manchester United is known for being quiet when it comes to negotiating deals. The deal could be very advanced and we are just waiting for everything to be finalized before announcing anything. We know that Thiago’s clause rises at the end of July and that he reports back to training on the 15th. So if any deal was going to happen, you’d imagine it would have to be soon.thanks for reading.

 

 

 

Found this. You can replace MUFC by Bayern Munich in the above explanation.

[Romey 1878]

Fuck, my head hurts after reading that.

[Sideliner]

Avinalaff I am sorry to hear that Everton is YOUR club - and that I know "sod all "about it -

now I understand why Moyes is still YOUR manager as well -

insults do not convince -

the sad FACT is that you seriously regard the odd chances Moyes gave Barkley, Gueye and Baxter last season as youth development -

one must compare Moyes to the best in the business before labelling him as a fantastic developer of the youth -

if anything he tried to develop Neville and Naismith last season

[Cake]

Jack Rodwell is getting games for the richest side in the world.

 

Has he signed for Real Madrid then? , they're the richest club in the world (Forbes).

 

Man City are 9th in the world at $689m compared with Real's $3.3bn

 

For what it's worth and still well off topic we were 21st in 2007 ($165m), 21st in 2008 ($197m) and 24th in 2009 ($207m) but we haven't featured since as can only find details of top 20 from 2010 onwards and we're not there, which is unsurprising as our debt % of that value had increased from a low of 30% in 2008 to 49% in 2009

 

Edit - The message from "Has he signed............" onwards should show under me not Avinalaff but it's hot and I'm easily misled and very confusable about forum etiquette and technology....

Edited July 14, 2013 by Cake

[Avinalaff]

Avinalaff I am sorry to hear that Everton is YOUR club - and that I know "sod all "about it -

now I understand why Moyes is still YOUR manager as well -

insults do not convince -

the sad FACT is that you seriously regard the odd chances Moyes gave Barkley, Gueye and Baxter last season as youth development -

one must compare Moyes to the best in the business before labelling him as a fantastic developer of the youth -

if anything he tried to develop Neville and Naismith last season

 

Sideliner, it wasn't an insult, but a point that you really do like to come out with facts that are incorrect whilst having your little anti Moyes rants. You've done it again.

 

Gueye was loaned out to Brest last window, so if that isn't giving the lad an opportunity to gain much needed experience, then what is? Barkley was also loaned out, and Baxter signed for Oldham last September.

 

Barkley was unlucky, as he broke his leg, shortly after being brought into the squad and had to play catch up.

 

The top and bottom is that Moyes knows if the lads were good enough or ready. You don't, so it's a pointless debate to have as you can't form any factual opinion on any of the young players. Only the staff can do that.

 

I think my words were 'Our club' so quit with the wrongful quotes

[Avinalaff]

 

Edit - The message from "Has he signed............" onwards should show under me not Avinalaff but it's hot and I'm easily misled and very confusable about forum etiquette and technology....

 

All that just to be petty ?

 

City's owners are 'trillionaires' and could buy Real Madrid and not notice the money missing, regardless of Forbes and their 'lickle' lists.

[Cake]

 

All that just to be petty ?

 

City's owners are 'trillionaires' and could buy Real Madrid and not notice the money missing, regardless of Forbes and their 'lickle' lists.

 

Good Lord, you're a tense one aren't you! Chill out my lickle sunbeam. It was tongue in cheek.

 

They may be trillionaires but their trillions are not in football so Manchester City are not the richest football club in the world.

 

If this is a game of right and wrong instead of a meaningless internet forum on a beautiful summer day you'll find I'm right, on this one, and you're more than an 'ickle bit wrong.

[Hafnia]

Just using Barkley alone is a yardstick in measuring Moyes youth development policy. 2 years ago he was man of the match in a game against QPR - around the same time Tim Cahill stated that Ross was the most talented youngster he had seen...

 

a few weeks later he had a bit of a spell against Blackburn where he lost his head and looked scared. What did Davie do? Subbed him immediately. I said at the time it was one of the worst things you could do, you fall off a bike you get back on. You learn that its a blip and you put things right. No not our Davie.... Barkley since that game had been shipped out - shown his class, brought back - not used and not developed. He then proved what he has against Arsenal, ironically Moyes never trusted him against poorer opponnents but gave him game time against the best???

 

Moving on Duffy... Proved he has got premiership class with a few games where he "had" to be played, 8/10 performances and a stellar performance against Spurs. When he didn't need to be played - he wasn't. Moyes even choosing Hibbert as a centre half instead. Strange.

 

Moyes can take plaudits for being a good club manager, dilligent, hardworking, authoritive, a canny transfer operator but pleeeeaaaassseee drop this "Moyes develops youth" its absolute nonsense. Moyes has "had" to use youth at times, he doesn't choose to develop youth. We have a tremendous academy (yes he can take credit for overseeing that) but in terms of ensuring they make it at highest level - no he can't. Callum Mcmanaman anyone?