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Referendum  

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  1. 1. In or out?

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    • Leave
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16 hours ago, MikeO said:

Not a single member of my close or extended family voted out I'm proud to say, from a 16 year old niece who was well pissed she had no say to my late father-in-law (who was 93 at the time).

Mike,  doesn't mean much.  Down your neck of the woods they even vote for the Liberal's in General Elections.😁

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1 minute ago, Palfy said:

Matt what’s the property prices like sounds like a safe haven. 

200,000chf /20% deposit on a 3 bedroom detached + 5% in admin...

safe, yet costly. Pension, after 12 years, covers half the deposit :( 

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1 minute ago, Matt said:

200,000chf /20% deposit on a 3 bedroom detached + 5% in admin...

safe, yet costly. Pension, after 12 years, covers half the deposit :( 

wait let me get this right, if you work in swiss for 12 years they pay 10k towards a home purchase?  wow that sounds excellent

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2 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

wait let me get this right, if you work in swiss for 12 years they pay 10k towards a home purchase?  wow that sounds excellent

Fuck no! :lol: the Swiss giving money away?!

my current personal pension after 12 years is enough for half the deposit on a house (garden not guaranteed). 

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Just now, Palfy said:

Roughly how many Francs to the Pound 

At the moment it’s shite, despite Brexit. But it’s a volatile conversion rate and has been for at least 10 years  

GBP/CHF chart from the XE Currency app, https://www.xe.com/chart/?from=GBP&to=CHF

that said, if you want a nice place to retire too and don’t need to worry about access, there’s some stunning chalets available for relative buttons

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Anyone else find it amazing that there is such a thing as a no-deal Brexit?

You would think that we could agree on plenty of smaller things around the EU, starting from the base of no deal on trade / back stop etc. It would seem that we have been working from a deal down route rather than a no deal up, when we could have been agreeing tiers of transitional agreements even if the larger problems are still an issue. 

Maybe they have and these will come into play if no-deal does loom and the no-deal aspect only refers to the customs element but it sounds like its all or nothing.

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6 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Anyone else find it amazing that there is such a thing as a no-deal Brexit?

You would think that we could agree on plenty of smaller things around the EU, starting from the base of no deal on trade / back stop etc. It would seem that we have been working from a deal down route rather than a no deal up, when we could have been agreeing tiers of transitional agreements even if the larger problems are still an issue. 

Maybe they have and these will come into play if no-deal does loom and the no-deal aspect only refers to the customs element but it sounds like its all or nothing.

Amazing?! No. Dumbfounding yet completely unsurprising yes.

this is what happens when you’re asked to choose between your current paintjob on your car and an unspecified other, unknown provider of a change; your car gets scrapped 

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8 hours ago, Bailey said:

Anyone else find it amazing that there is such a thing as a no-deal Brexit?

You would think that we could agree on plenty of smaller things around the EU, starting from the base of no deal on trade / back stop etc. It would seem that we have been working from a deal down route rather than a no deal up, when we could have been agreeing tiers of transitional agreements even if the larger problems are still an issue. 

Maybe they have and these will come into play if no-deal does loom and the no-deal aspect only refers to the customs element but it sounds like its all or nothing.

The EU regards the current deal as the basis for a negotiation.  The current deal settles the citizens rights, the financial settlement and creates a back-stop to protect the Good-Friday-Agreement.  It says nothing binding about whether the UK will end up with a Norway or Canada deal, or indeed no trade deal at all.

The EU will surely attach many, if not all, of what has already been agreed to any mini-deal.   So a "managed" no-deal is an illusion, it is either this deal or no-deal.

The EU has published its no-deal notices recently and it shows a number of unilateral measures they will take to keep what is necessary for the EU in working order for a short periode of time, during which companies and member states can fully adjust to a no-deal reality.

Key word being unilateral.

 

 

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@holystove when its all done and dusted and some semblance of sanity has returned to the region do you think it's likely Brexit will be a net benefit for the rest of the EU, in that they'll be able to achieve things they couldn't with the UK still in there?

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10 minutes ago, Chach said:

@holystove when its all done and dusted and some semblance of sanity has returned to the region do you think it's likely Brexit will be a net benefit for the rest of the EU, in that they'll be able to achieve things they couldn't with the UK still in there?

Yes that is my hope.  It's why I backed Brexit.

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1 hour ago, MikeO said:

For the 27, just not for us.

I never backed Brexit wishing the UK harm.  Hope everything works out.

 

1 hour ago, Chach said:

And the rest of the world who want a solid EU to provide leadership in the void left by Trumpistan.

EU has been trying to set up a common foreign policy for 10 years..   Brexit helps, but countries like Hungary and Poland can still slow things down (be it not as succesfully as the UK).

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22 minutes ago, MikeO said:

432-202 against May in the "meaningful vote".

What a complete shambles.

Biggest defeat in history. No confidence motion tabled. 

#strongandstable

I am starting to wonder if we should start to call her Agent May, only a spy could create such a shambles. 

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Oh, and it’s good to see the actual democracy, rather than the lie of democracy that’s been spouted over the last two years, prevailed. Though it’s of little comfort :( 

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26 minutes ago, Matt said:

Biggest defeat in history. No confidence motion tabled. 

#strongandstable

I am starting to wonder if we should start to call her Agent May, only a spy could create such a shambles. 

But she'll win it, all Tory MP's will vote for her and the DUP knuckle draggers have already said they will too because they can't risk a general election. It's a crazy situation and I've zero idea what's going to happen next, Corbyn/Labour really missing an open goal due to their "sat on the wall" positioning.

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4 hours ago, MikeO said:

But she'll win it, all Tory MP's will vote for her and the DUP knuckle draggers have already said they will too because they can't risk a general election. 

I think Labour have cooked it with this strategy, surely a second referendum on the deal  or no deal is the only way forward. Suggesting they can negotiate a better deal is fanciful. 

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7 hours ago, MikeO said:

But she'll win it, all Tory MP's will vote for her and the DUP knuckle draggers have already said they will too because they can't risk a general election. It's a crazy situation and I've zero idea what's going to happen next, Corbyn/Labour really missing an open goal due to their "sat on the wall" positioning.

If she wins it the it shows how shite / corrupt the UKs options 

Meanwhile

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46887188

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13 hours ago, Chach said:

I think Labour have cooked it with this strategy, surely a second referendum on the deal  or no deal is the only way forward. Suggesting they can negotiate a better deal is fanciful. 

I can't see another option so back down to village hall soon I hope.

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20 hours ago, MikeO said:

But she'll win it, all Tory MP's will vote for her and the DUP knuckle draggers have already said they will too because they can't risk a general election. It's a crazy situation and I've zero idea what's going to happen next, Corbyn/Labour really missing an open goal due to their "sat on the wall" positioning.

Just thinking... Does Corbyn have to win? Surely he only needs 1 more Tory MP than the DUP have seats to defect and there’s no majority government, right? And that’s only 10 seats? 

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19 short. I wonder if Corbyn stepped down and they put someone more likeable in charge then pushed the vote again if that would change things. 

Sickening that she’s survived this. Just when I had a little faith in the democratic process and MPs, they bandy together because they don’t like the Labour leader :dry:

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18 minutes ago, Matt said:

19 short. I wonder if Corbyn stepped down and they put someone more likeable in charge then pushed the vote again if that would change things. 

Sickening that she’s survived this. Just when I had a little faith in the democratic process and MPs, they bandy together because they don’t like the Labour leader :dry:

The DUP all voted for her they didn't want a general election in case they lost their seats who else has sided with her besides her own MPs.

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15 minutes ago, Palfy said:

The DUP all voted for her they didn't want a general election in case they lost their seats who else has sided with her besides her own MPs.

DUP doesn’t surprise me in the slightest, they’d lose more than just seats. 

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18 minutes ago, Matt said:

DUP doesn’t surprise me in the slightest, they’d lose more than just seats. 

Northern Ireland is still massively segregated along sectarian lines and there are still Protestant and Catholic areas (among "peace walls") so I don't think the DUP MP's were worried about losing their seats, they were worried only about losing the ridiculous power they've been given by propping up the Tory minority. Tories were the ones worried about losing their seats getting behind the ABC (anyone but Corbyn) movement.

You know the irony? Corbyn wanted Brexit, May didn't; 80% of Labour voters want to stay in the EU but the vast majority still support Corbyn while his fellow MP's hate him. We're in a lose/lose/lose/lose situation at the moment and I really see no way out of it. May's party have voted for her tonight but they'll still be lining up to slag her off again tomorrow, I just give up.

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12 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Northern Ireland is still massively segregated along sectarian lines and there are still Protestant and Catholic areas (among "peace walls") so I don't think the DUP MP's were worried about losing their seats, they were worried only about losing the ridiculous power they've been given by propping up the Tory minority. Tories were the ones worried about losing their seats getting behind the ABC (anyone but Corbyn) movement.

You know the irony? Corbyn wanted Brexit, May didn't; 80% of Labour voters want to stay in the EU but the vast majority still support Corbyn while his fellow MP's hate him. We're in a lose/lose/lose/lose situation at the moment and I really see no way out of it. May's party have voted for her tonight but they'll still be lining up to slag her off again tomorrow, I just give up.

the underlined is what i don't get.  why don't his party just remove him as leader, they want remain, their constituents want remain, he doesn't, odd man out.  

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Just to add an extra cherry on top of the fucked up British political system cake, despite rightly bitching and moaning about not being involved when May does finally offer the chance of negotiating both Corbyn and Cable put down a pre-condition to any dialogue.

May can now just say that she tried, speak to the smaller party leaders and probably come back with more or less the same deal on Monday.

They are all a bunch of time wasters. 

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5 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

the underlined is what i don't get.  why don't his party just remove him as leader, they want remain, their constituents want remain, he doesn't, odd man out.  

The card carrying Labour members want Corbyn by a fairly decent margin, since 2015 its been a 1 member = 1 vote (previously an electoral college system)

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"The threat from Brussels is that the EU will shrug its shoulders and allow a disorderly Brexit, with substantial disruption to trade, transport, and so forth. But it is much more likely that German business, along with the French and Dutch governments, would be up in arms against such a turn, and demand that the European Commission use its powers indefinitely to suspend any disruption in Europe’s ports and airports while meaningful negotiations begin for the first time since 2016."

This has been my long held suspicion, it can't and won't be one way disruption, it takes two to trade tango. Money talks and in the end bureaucracy will run a marathon. (I've been wrong before though :D) 

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/path-forward-after-parliament-brexit-vote-by-yanis-varoufakis-2019-01?fbclid=IwAR33A84MIYqOzb2QzZMPSvpZZIHGM2F4mwqpDzJpJxwxUvUBVj6CGMdtsEQ

Keen to hear from @holystove on the Norway plus option.

 

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4 hours ago, Chach said:

"The threat from Brussels is that the EU will shrug its shoulders and allow a disorderly Brexit, with substantial disruption to trade, transport, and so forth. But it is much more likely that German business, along with the French and Dutch governments, would be up in arms against such a turn, and demand that the European Commission use its powers indefinitely to suspend any disruption in Europe’s ports and airports while meaningful negotiations begin for the first time since 2016."

This has been my long held suspicion, it can't and won't be one way disruption, it takes two to trade tango. Money talks and in the end bureaucracy will run a marathon. (I've been wrong before though :D) 

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/path-forward-after-parliament-brexit-vote-by-yanis-varoufakis-2019-01?fbclid=IwAR33A84MIYqOzb2QzZMPSvpZZIHGM2F4mwqpDzJpJxwxUvUBVj6CGMdtsEQ

Keen to hear from @holystove on the Norway plus option.

 

The only way to be a 100% sure this will turn out like Greece 2015 is to start taking Varoufakis' advice 😄

How many times has the Brexit side said "any minute now, German car makers will intervene and force the EU to give us what we want".  German car makers have consistently said the integrity of the Single Market is most important.   Don't expect much from the "French and Dutch governments" either, as it is the member state governments that have decided the Commission should take a firm line. 

Norway plus option is fine, the political declaration allows for such a thing to be negotiated.  As I have said before however,  Canada +++ Norway ++ or whatever else, all require the Withdrawal Agreement to be ratified.  The Withdrawal Agreement is the legal basis for the transition period, during which Canada or Norway or.. will be negotiated.

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11 hours ago, Chach said:

The card carrying Labour members want Corbyn by a fairly decent margin, since 2015 its been a 1 member = 1 vote (previously an electoral college system)

if the majority want remain, how could they want corbyn?  they're mutually exclusive in that respect, that's what i'm talking about.  how can a labour voter want a guy who doesn't represent what they want?  that seems very strange to me.

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2 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

if the majority want remain, how could they want corbyn?  they're mutually exclusive in that respect, that's what i'm talking about.  how can a labour voter want a guy who doesn't represent what they want?  that seems very strange to me.

As he's the only honest man in there who genuinely cares about the people rather than himself and keeping the fat cats happy. Over here the Conservatives have done the biggest brain wash since the church convincing/lying to the public to work for pittance. 

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2 hours ago, pete0 said:

As he's the only honest man in there who genuinely cares about the people rather than himself and keeping the fat cats happy. Over here the Conservatives have done the biggest brain wash since the church convincing/lying to the public to work for pittance. 

He is not honest though is he?  as much as I have voted labour in the past I can not vote for such a two faced terrorist supporting monster as Corbyn  but everyone to their own I think.  we all agree on one thing though  Theresa May has fucked this up badly

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19 minutes ago, rubecula said:

He is not honest though is he?  as much as I have voted labour in the past I can not vote for such a two faced terrorist supporting monster as Corbyn  but everyone to their own I think.  we all agree on one thing though  Theresa May has fucked this up badly

Terrorist supporting monster? 

History shows otherwise

https://goo.gl/images/v1kjFo

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everyone has their own opinion Pete  so if you and I disagree on the man or his policies  then that is ok with me,  I will admit that I could never vote for labour while he is in charge though,  but no way will I ever vote tory no matter who is in charge.  I may be a little out of touch but I am not a bloody idiot.

:huh: 

at least I don't think I am.  but everyone else might disagree

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19 minutes ago, rubecula said:

See the source image

He "attacked the governments Ulster policy and said that troops should be pulled out of the province". What happened next? We talked to the IRA, brokered a peace and took the troops out.

Not defending the IRA for a moment, or indeed the unionist extremists on the other side (the people currently propping up Mrs May, leader of the party who called Nelson Mandela a terrorist) but one man's terrorist is another one's freedom fighter. 

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Ffs. People voting based on a figurehead piss me off. Sorry Rubes, but it’s just ridiculous and leads to Trumps and Mays. Vote for the parties policies, it’s not a dictatorship!

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2 minutes ago, Matt said:

Ffs. People voting based on a figurehead piss me off. Sorry Rubes, but it’s just ridiculous and leads to Trumps and Mays. Vote for the parties policies, it’s not a dictatorship!

but it is apparently.  labour is majority remain, but figure head is Leave, so they are leave.  sounds like he's dictating regardless of constituents to me!

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3 hours ago, pete0 said:

As he's the only honest man in there who genuinely cares about the people rather than himself and keeping the fat cats happy. Over here the Conservatives have done the biggest brain wash since the church convincing/lying to the public to work for pittance. 

I needed a good laugh, thanks Pete0.

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7 minutes ago, Matt said:

Ffs. People voting based on a figurehead piss me off. Sorry Rubes, but it’s just ridiculous and leads to Trumps and Mays. Vote for the parties policies, it’s not a dictatorship!

I do not vote for a figurehead  never have and never will.  but also I will avoid voting for a party with a figurehead that I can not stand.

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11 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

but it is apparently.  labour is majority remain, but figure head is Leave, so they are leave.  sounds like he's dictating regardless of constituents to me!

It's a nutjob, this sums it up quite well...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/22/remainers-condemn-jeremy-corbyn-pledge-to-push-on-with-brexit

The Scottish National party also rebuked Corbyn, with the party’s Westminster leader, Ian Blackford, calling him “the midwife to the delivery of the [Tories’] Brexit plans”.

“Jeremy Corbyn has finally come off the fence he’s been sat on for the past two years,” he said. “But unfathomably he’s come down on the same side as Theresa May. The Labour party is incapable of providing opposition to the worst UK government that most people can remember.”

The Liberal Democrat leader, Vince Cable, added that Corbyn “refuses once again to take the blinkers off”, with the party’s policy indistinguishable from the Conservatives’.

“He is ignoring the concerns of his own supporters and the economic damage experts warn Brexit will do to the UK economy,” he said. “On Brexit, you simply cannot put a cigarette paper between Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.”

The only hope appears to be the minority parties, but they are (obviously) in a minority. Labour members support Corbyn for many reasons (most of which I agree with) so the Brexit stance is just one of many policies they take into account, he should be taking his members opinions into account on this as they're so loyal to him in general but this is the defining decision for our future right now and he's wimped out on it so far.

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I think that Corbyn has always been a Brexiteer if the truth be known, that's why he doesn't advocate a 2nd referendum and in a lot of the areas where Labour hold the seat the votes went with Brexit, even though a majority of his MP's want another referendum he will always find the safety of saying no because your constituents voted for out in the main, they can't win and he can't lose.

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