holystove

Not the Turkey shit again. They are far, far away from gaining entrance to the EU so the whole thing is a moot point. They would need massive reforms in their society and politics to be even theoretically eligible. You might just as well use Russia as an example.
 
And why would they all go to Belgium in any case? They would probably want to work and it would be obvious all going to the same small country would make that impossible.

Cameron's been rebuffed at the EU meeting over asking about trying to control numbers coming into the country. I agree with Cameron on this one but he's far too late on it. By us they're taking away green belt land to fit in a load high priced shoe boxes for people to live in and house prices are strangling families, and schools are building prefabs to cope with the extra demand.
 
Also pay has been stagnant for a good few years in my job and working conditions deteriorated in other jobs because people are easily replaced. That may be great for the capitalist economy but it's not great for many of us workers on the lower end of the pay scale. But were told hey you've got a job haven't you. You wonder what's the point though when after all your costs you're left with £15 a week to spend on yourself.
 
Hopefully the EU can spend money now on improving the infrastructure of the Eastern European countries people that many are moving from. If they could have sorted that out before hand with the warning signs there for all to see then the remain vote would have been far higher.

you mean Jogi Low was good. He was the brains behind the operation. As evidenced by how shit JK is for the US. awful awful tactics (low's forte) and really the only thing he's done well is recruit foreign born US internationals. JK was awful at Bayern as well.

Marseille had an agreement with Palace, but Batshuayi didn't want to join a team that will be fighting relegation (quote from his father). So he didn't have a personal agreement with Palace.
 
Chelsea reportedly has now offered 40m € so still a better deal for Marseille aswell.

Marseille had an agreement with Palace, but Batshuayi didn't want to join a team that will be fighting relegation (quote from his father). So he didn't have a personal agreement with Palace.
 
Chelsea reportedly has now offered 40m € so still a better deal for Marseille aswell.

Just a point on the youth who didn't vote in the Swiss immigration... The reason the turnout was so low (according to some of the guys here, trying to find an article) is because they were flat out lied to. They were assured that nothing would change but the number of immigrants allowed, and were not informed of any potential impacts on funding from the EU (mostly because it was unknown) and then largely ignored by the campaign. Therefore, they deemed the vote irrelevant. Hindsight says it was stupid, but if you're naive and young, you tend to go with their advice. Unfortunately that meant being tricked by the government put in place to protect them.
 
Meanwhile, the campaigns concentrated on the isolated cantons (county equivalent) and subsequently the older, retired generations, banging on about the impacts of benefits and pensions. The politicians played the public for their own gain and not for the good of the people. It was a very clever divide and conquer strategy.
 
In contrast, the cantons bordering with other countries, the clear majority of voters wanted to encourage immigration and not limit it, because of the benefit it brings. They lost to a "majority" of people who didn't even have to live with immigrants who were fed fear and lies to trick them.
 
http://www.dw.com/en/swiss-feel-country-is-bursting-at-the-seams/a-17419390
 
The parallels are very clear

I get the sentiment that the Brexit has given pro-EU voices a boost (reading French, Dutch and Belgian newspapers (not something I usually do but the Brexit thing has got my head spinning looking for every bit of information out there), see Peter H comment about Sweden, Podemos losing in Spain, ..).
Media are highlighting:
- the google thing (what is EU? on the 24th of june),
- the fact that so many British citizens regret their vote for leave/didn't think it was actually going to happen, (not sure this is true for a significant number of Brits, but it is being reported like that)
- huge coverage is given to the vandalism to the Polish cultural center in London and to the messages left in the mailbox of some polish families with the words "Polish vermin" written on them.
- this morning on the radio they were talking about how soon the banks would be leaving London
.. in essence: nothing positive about the Brexit.
 
I heard a guy at my local tennis club (who knows jack shit about anything) say that article 50 should be invoked right now so England can be thrown out of Euro 2016.. maybe anti-EU is turning into anti-UK for the dumbest among us.
 
Instead of the anti-EU parties, it seems politicians who say they're going to be tough on Britain will now get the populist vote.

I don't understand why you would say the EU likes referenda; they're purely a national matter. ??
 
Personally I'm very much against referenda because I believe elected politicians in a representative democracy are much better positioned to decide most issues. You can't run a country on populism.

I don't understand why you would say the EU likes referenda; they're purely a national matter. ??
 
Personally I'm very much against referenda because I believe elected politicians in a representative democracy are much better positioned to decide most issues. You can't run a country on populism.

Yes Steve, it is all knee-jerk reaction. It is less than five days since the vote on an issue which was always going to take several years to sort out. Any views, either doom-mongering or overtly positive, are meaningless at this stage.

I thought that was against the law. Would save the FA a few quid for their junkets though .

You're getting confused with penne Shukes mate.

Thought Dier was the best Englishman this tournament. Don't get that sub.

the players didn't realize the importance of the match steve, they had to google it after they lost. just realized it was knock out.

I thought he played a decent first half but nothing special, second half he was crap.
 
One thing I noticed (other than his well known other flaws) is that he's a bit of a slow thinker. The number of times Hazard and De Bruyne threw up their arms in desperation because Lukaku couldn't keep up (needing two touches when it only took one, turning too slowly, not passing or passing to slow or fast, ..).
 
Instead of increasing his value he's showing he can't keep up with really good players. What worries me is that this year's Everton were the best team possible for him, next years Everton should be too good, and definitely the 2017-2018 Everton team should be out of his league.

Something about Bale irritates me. I think it's the "look at me being all humble with my inferior team mates" vibe that I'm getting.
 
Yes Gareth, we know you play for a huge club and are your teams best player... we know that you play in Spain because you have gone all Beckham with your silly hair do and little streak of hair dye. Maybe if you move to Man United you will get a short back and sides

I thought he played a decent first half but nothing special, second half he was crap.
 
One thing I noticed (other than his well known other flaws) is that he's a bit of a slow thinker. The number of times Hazard and De Bruyne threw up their arms in desperation because Lukaku couldn't keep up (needing two touches when it only took one, turning too slowly, not passing or passing to slow or fast, ..).
 
Instead of increasing his value he's showing he can't keep up with really good players. What worries me is that this year's Everton were the best team possible for him, next years Everton should be too good, and definitely the 2017-2018 Everton team should be out of his league.

Probably not a surprise that I agree with this one hundred percent. To have someone who voted out say this, warms my heart .
 
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I'd like to come back on what I said about the message of the Brexit only resonating with extremist parties on the continent. It's true that only the leaders of these parties celebrated a Brexit but a vote on whether your country stays in the EU doesn't happen along party lines.
Le Pen is the leader of the only political party in France that is against the EU, she is also a fascist. But that doesn't mean that in France only fascists are against the EU.
 
The anti-establishment argument is really resonating with a lot of people right now. People want to say No, indifferent of the question asked if they see the establishment backing yes.
 
Reform is needed in the EU, but first and foremost politicians should stress, as Romey said, the positives of EU membership. You shouldn't be in the EU because scaremongerers make you afraid your country can't survive outside of it (ofcourse it can), you should be in the EU because you want to.
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This article by Timothy Gordon Ash really hits the nail on the head (imo):
 
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/lifelong-english-european-the-biggest-defeat-of-my-political-life-timothy-garton-ash-brexit

It doesn't help that both sides effectively only played the fear card. I feel remain would've shaded it if they'd chosen to put forward more of why it is a good thing to be part of the EU, rather than to concentrate on why it'd be bad to leave.

Don't think I was twisting your words. You said you hoped your Brexit influenced other countries to also choose to quit the EU. I replied that such a message is only being picked up by the far-right-wing parties, who are uniting behind quitting the EU.
Also don't see how each country reverting back unto itself has anything to do with uniting people.
 
I think it's a bad evolution that people feel the need to say fuck you to (mainstream) political parties; it pushes them to extremists such as UKIP, FN, AfD, PVV, Vlaams Belang on the right, and to the communists on the left.
Trump is also riding the fuck-you establishment wave, with terms like "take your country back", and "make your country great again".

Might be important to keep in mind that the only ones from the continent congratulating you are Le Pen, Wilders, Lega Nord, Orban.. Not one mainstream party has said that a Brexit is a good thing.
It's OK to be proud of your victory, but patting yourself on the back for having united the facsists of Europe is taking it a step to far for me.

Good post Newty.
 
About the Future: *the following is purely speculation and personal opinion*
I think Matt called it earlier in this thread. There are a million things that need to be (re-)negotiated, and that can't happen within the timespan of two years. Switzerland and the EU barely managed in 20 years of time. The EU will give the UK the Norway-deal : access to the single market, in exchange for a fee, and without a seat at the table. During the following years after that, probably some stuff can be re-negotiated without the two years time limit.
 
Unless the Brexit sets into effect the exit of other member states, and the whole thing falls apart. But as the exit scenario doesn't seem to get a lot of traction, apart from extremist parties, on the continent I think that the much less likely option.
 
Longer term future: personal hope: the EU asserts itself more and proves how and why it is still the greatest political project ever undertaken and a definite positive in todays world, the UK will want to join again at some point. Given the massive number of young people that wanted to remain, the future generations of UK citizens might be open to it.

Ffs, I greened this accidentally.
 
If the people want to make the choice whether to stay in the EU, and the result of our vote gives them the courage to ask for it, then you fucking bet I'm proud of that.
 
Mainstream politics has brought the fuck you attitude on themselves. They deserve it. Maybe be this (and the possibility of other countries following suit) will force them to be what they should be.
 
You make out like all people who voted to leave are uneducated racists when it's simply not the case. Immigration wasn't even the top concern of the majority of leave voters. You keep spouting that though. Anyway, Newty put it much better than me so just read his post. I'm going out and maybe I'll have a few extra drinks to celebrate the result of the vote. I might punch a Polish person just for shits and giggles while I'm there. After all, I voted leave so it'd only be right wouldn't it?

Don't think I was twisting your words. You said you hoped your Brexit influenced other countries to also choose to quit the EU. I replied that such a message is only being picked up by the far-right-wing parties, who are uniting behind quitting the EU.
Also don't see how each country reverting back unto itself has anything to do with uniting people.
 
I think it's a bad evolution that people feel the need to say fuck you to (mainstream) political parties; it pushes them to extremists such as UKIP, FN, AfD, PVV, Vlaams Belang on the right, and to the communists on the left.
Trump is also riding the fuck-you establishment wave, with terms like "take your country back", and "make your country great again".