If 4-4-2 Is The Answer Then......

[Hafnia]

Many fans on here have grown tired of seeing the 4-5-1 formation for a while. Yes it has brought success in it's time, but the fact is we are a better equipped team than the one that packed the midfield against many teams using Cahill to support the striker where possible.

 

Moyes used the excuse that Cahill was the only one finding the net as his reason to persist with playing him up front and disastrously against west ham as a lone striker.

 

4-4-2 offers the midfield the space and options to shift the ball to attack so much quickly, with two strikers making runs it gives the centre halves something to think about, with Cahill playing off the striker he is often marked by the defensive midfielder giving the centre halves the chance to double up on Saha. As we have seen, most goals in this formation have come from the play being switched out wide and the ball crossed in where Cahill is deadly.

 

So that brings us to the question, what do we do when Cahill returns?

[Lowensda]

IMO it should be 4-4-2 against 'lower teams' and at home because as you say, it spreads the midfield and helps to draw defenders.

 

Away and Home against the top teams should be a 4-5-1 with Cahill. He usually scores in tighter games and has a knack of scoring important goals, usually because we rely heavily on set-pieces.

 

Its a true predicament but actually a healthy one. I still think if the team are playing well in 4-4-2, Cahill will have to fight for his place in that formation and untill teams figure us out, we should stick with it.

Edited January 8, 2011 by tenaciousj

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

IMO it should be 4-4-2 against 'lower teams' and at home because as you say, it spreads the midfield and helps to draw defenders.

 

Away and Home against the top teams should be a 4-5-1 with Cahill. He usually scores in tighter games and has a knack of scoring important goals, usually because we really heavily on set-pieces.

 

Its a true predicament but actually a healthy one. I still think if the team are playing well in 4-4-2, Cahill will have to fight for his place in that formation and untill teams figure us out, we should stick with it.

 

 

Agreed

[Romey 1878]

IMO it should be 4-4-2 against 'lower teams' and at home because as you say, it spreads the midfield and helps to draw defenders.

 

Away and Home against the top teams should be a 4-5-1 with Cahill. He usually scores in tighter games and has a knack of scoring important goals, usually because we really heavily on set-pieces.

 

Its a true predicament but actually a healthy one. I still think if the team are playing well in 4-4-2, Cahill will have to fight for his place in that formation and untill teams figure us out, we should stick with it.

 

 

Fully agree with this.

[Blue 250]

We can win and lose with 4-4-2, just as well as with 4-5-1.

 

To my mind we have the players to use both in the same match (well that is when Cahills about and fit).

 

The squad for a match day if it contains Cahill is capable of doing both formations.Moyes can start with the system that looks most suited for the opponents, with the option of changing as soon as it appears that it's not working out.

 

There are no easy games, and if the first game up after Cahill returns looks likely to benifit from 4-4-2, then Put Tim on the bench.

 

Cahills like a not very secret weapon, opponents know what he can do, that's something Moyes has to remember.

 

I'm sure there will be games in the not too far distant future, that we will win using 4-5-1, that will depend on an inform striker and the formation pushed to it's limits.....and obviously Cahill working his magic.

 

There's room for both.......is Moyes blinkered to the extent he wont put a fully fit Cahill on the bench, I hope not.

[thinman]

Agreed. Thought our midfield looked pretty snappy in the 4-4-2 against Scunthorpe and Spurs.

[StevO]

i havent seen us play 442.

beckford is playing upfront, saha is playing behind him.

previously cahill has played behind saha.

whether saha is alone upfront or with another he still plays from deep, its not effective when tim plays as they both play from deep and no one is pressuring the defenders.

cahill and saha both need to play with a man infront of them, they just cant play together.

[Bailey]

i havent seen us play 442.

beckford is playing upfront, saha is playing behind him.

previously cahill has played behind saha.

whether saha is alone upfront or with another he still plays from deep, its not effective when tim plays as they both play from deep and no one is pressuring the defenders.

cahill and saha both need to play with a man infront of them, they just cant play together.

 

I agree with this. Positionally we arent playing any different its just that in the last two games we have actually gone after the opposition getting our tackles in early and trying to get the ball forward quicker.

[Hafnia]

We are playing 4-4-2 now, beckford and Saha are moving off each other, rather than our 4-5-1 where Cahill rejoins midfield when we haven't got the ball. The problem being he is deep when we regain possession losing the impetus to push the central pairing back or create space or channels for the midfield to exploit. That's why appear so more direct and potent at the moment.

[Maghull70]

While a few worried about Cahill being missing for 6 weeks I thought it would be a blessing in disguise as Moyes would be forced to play the strikers and he will hopefully have an idea about who best to play when Cahill comes back.

 

I do love Cahill but I think he limits Moyes' options because he feels forced to play him either up front just behind a striker, all too often it turns out being a 4-4-1 until we go behind and then we go 4-4-2 and scrape a draw.

 

I am not one of those that thinks Moyes should go but he needs to adapt to whoever we are playing. Having 3 strikers on the bench to lowly West Ham the other week was MADNESS. And earlier in the season when we were playing "lesser" teams he left Coleman on the bench when it seemed obvious that we should be using Coleman to attack these teams and maybe take the slightly more cautious approach against the "tougher" teams.

 

Anyway, I think its 4-4-2 until Cahill gets back. Problem is though once he does return and start playing, even if results dont go our way, Moyes will probably persevere with Cahill and stick with 4-4-1 even if its not working.

[Bailey]

We are playing 4-4-2 now, beckford and Saha are moving off each other, rather than our 4-5-1 where Cahill rejoins midfield when we haven't got the ball. The problem being he is deep when we regain possession losing the impetus to push the central pairing back or create space or channels for the midfield to exploit. That's why appear so more direct and potent at the moment.

 

If you watch Cahill when we are at home then you will see he very rarely joins the midfield, certainly no more than Saha/Beckford are at the moment. The difference to me is that we have players with 'attacking' movement. They both want to break forward (Becks more than Saha) and where the former wants to get in the box, the latter wants to pull deep onto the edge and arrive a bit later. Cahill as a striker has the movement of a midfielder UNTIL he gets in the box. You dont see him run past the last defender and Saha is the same and thats why we have been stifled in our attacking play before now.

 

It was the same story early last season. How many times have we seen Saha & Cahill in the same 5-10 yards, especially as the ball gets in the box or when the ball is initially cleared.

 

The main reason we lost impetus in our attacking play before is because Cahill/Saha would look to hold up the ball and wait for someone else to lay it off to, mainly because there was no-one else ahead of them and invariably a defender would make it tough for him and we would lose the ball. With Beckford up front we have more options. We can play it straight up to him, or because of the space Saha has time to turn (or shoot) or if need be he can still lay it off.

 

When Cahill returns we could play the same way just with him replacing Saha but we would then lose our threat from outside the area (as Cahill isnt going to score from there!) but we would gain in other aspects. My bets are that we will see Saha and Cahill return as a pair.

[FellainisHair]

Play Coleman on the right, Cahill and Felli in the centre (Felli sitting and Cahill going forward) Pienaar on the left, Beckford and Saha up front. Mikky has been crap this season, anonymous in most games.

[Hafnia]

Play Coleman on the right, Cahill and Felli in the centre (Felli sitting and Cahill going forward) Pienaar on the left, Beckford and Saha up front. Mikky has been crap this season, anonymous in most games.

 

Cahill in a two man midfield, not a chance. His passing and first touch is not up to the standard of Arteta, regardless of whether Arteta is on form. It's a matter of time before Arteta finds his feet, he is too good to be a below average player for too long.

 

The opportunities for slide rule defence splitting passes in the new set up (Beckford and Saha)is ideal for Arteta. Cahill is not an exponent of this. The runs that Beckford has been making is creating unease at the back, this is what we have been crying out for.

[FellainisHair]

Cahill in a two man midfield, not a chance. His passing and first touch is not up to the standard of Arteta, regardless of whether Arteta is on form. It's a matter of time before Arteta finds his feet, he is too good to be a below average player for too long.

 

The opportunities for slide rule defence splitting passes in the new set up (Beckford and Saha)is ideal for Arteta. Cahill is not an exponent of this. The runs that Beckford has been making is creating unease at the back, this is what we have been crying out for.

In 95% of games this season, Arteta has been ineffective. Are we now getting to the stage where we play a player on what he ahs done in the past?

[Hafnia]

In 95% of games this season, Arteta has been ineffective. Are we now getting to the stage where we play a player on what he ahs done in the past?

 

Would Liverpool not start Torres in favour of Ngog? We are talking about a proven class act in the centre of midfield. He is not going to rediscover his form on the bench. A few games in the reserves may not go amiss. But he needs to find his feet. It's frustrating, but all players go through this.

 

Cahill is not an option in a two man central pairing, no, no, no.

[FellainisHair]

Most teams now pack out the midfield against us, which means playing it through the middle is seldom an option. Cahill isn't creative, what he does best is creating space. From centre mid he could do that.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

In 95% of games this season, Arteta has been ineffective. Are we now getting to the stage where we play a player on what he ahs done in the past?

 

 

I think what hafnia was alluding to was that with Beckford in the team there is more movement upfront and therefore more chance of Arteta playing decent through balls and hence improving his own game

[KinseyG]

IMO it should be 4-4-2 against 'lower teams' and at home because as you say, it spreads the midfield and helps to draw defenders.

 

Away and Home against the top teams should be a 4-5-1 with Cahill. He usually scores in tighter games and has a knack of scoring important goals, usually because we rely heavily on set-pieces.

 

Its a true predicament but actually a healthy one. I still think if the team are playing well in 4-4-2, Cahill will have to fight for his place in that formation and untill teams figure us out, we should stick with it.

Fully agree, it is a dilemma but it's more competition in the squad, Cahill scares the shit out of defenders and will always be a weapon but to switch to a 442 will help with the goal tally.

[Romey 1878]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2011/jan/10/five-things-learned-fa-cup