Andreas Cornelius

[RuffRob]

that's is a lot if money - Cardiff are splashing the cash a little, are they not looking to spend around £12.5M on Wanyama. Would be over £20M on players with no real pedigree of playing in a top european league. Not sure I would be to happy if we sold Fellinin and spent the best part of it on these two players. Glad Malky didn't end up at Goodison.

 

Watch these two players have excellent seasons now!!!

[Steve_E]

that's is a lot if money - Cardiff are splashing the cash a little, are they not looking to spend around £12.5M on Wanyama. Would be over £20M on players with no real pedigree of playing in a top european league. Not sure I would be to happy if we sold Fellinin and spent the best part of it on these two players. Glad Malky didn't end up at Goodison.

 

Watch these two players have excellent seasons now!!!

 

They're quite expensive, but they're the type of players I would like us to spend money for.

[Cornish Steve]

Cardiff are splashing the cash a little, are they not looking to spend around £12.5M on Wanyama.

 

I thought I read that Wanyama is signing with Southampton.

[Romey 1878]

I thought I read that Wanyama is signing with Southampton.

He's turned them down.

[RuffRob]

Cardiff may or may not get Wanyama, but they are tryiing

 

 

They're quite expensive, but they're the type of players I would like us to spend money for.

You would be happy seeing £20M+ spent on these two?

[Steve_E]

Cardiff may or may not get Wanyama, but they are tryiing

 

You would be happy seeing £20M+ spent on these two?

 

It's £19m for both of 'em, I think. But, yes. They're young, full internationals, have done very well in their respective leagues, etc. Guys at that age and with that kind of potential should still be here in like 4 or 5 years time too so it should be a sound investment. These are the kinds of risks you need to take. Villa bought Benteke for £8m, Chelsea bought Lukaku for £10m, Courtois for £7,5m, De Bruyne for £7m, etc. They didn't play in a better league than the Scottish or Danish one. That's the kind of acquisitions we should be making.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Steve_E

[chicagoblue]

 

It's £19m for both of 'em, I think. But, yes. They're young, full internationals, have done very well in their respective leagues, etc. Guys at that age and with that kind of potential should still be here in like 4 or 5 years time too so it should be a sound investment. These are the kinds of risks you need to take. Villa bought Benteke for £8m, Chelsea bought Lukaku for £10m, Courtois for £7,5m, De Bruyne for £7m, etc. They didn't play in a better league than the Scottish or Danish one. That's the kind of acquisitions we should be making.

Not sure being a full international for Kenya counts for much of anything, but agree with you otherwise.

[RuffRob]

 

It's £19m for both of 'em, I think. But, yes. They're young, full internationals, have done very well in their respective leagues, etc. Guys at that age and with that kind of potential should still be here in like 4 or 5 years time too so it should be a sound investment. These are the kinds of risks you need to take. Villa bought Benteke for £8m, Chelsea bought Lukaku for £10m, Courtois for £7,5m, De Bruyne for £7m, etc. They didn't play in a better league than the Scottish or Danish one. That's the kind of acquisitions we should be making.

 

I would love the next Benteka or Lukaku. Chelsea are different to us as they have plenty of spare cash and can afford the speculate and take these sorts of risk on expensive youngsters. Belgium is a real hot bed of footballing talent at the moment, as all your examples highlight and the current belgium national side shows. I am really not sure you can say that the scottish and danish leagues are hot beds of talented youngsters. They are full internationals for Denmark and Kenya, so it a bit like saying Anichebe is a full international, it doesn't really mean that much. If you are talking the top young talent in Holland, France, Spanish or Belgium then I would be inclined to agree with is being a risk worth taking, but can't see the attraction in spending.

 

One of the problem these days is the likes of Chelsea et al are not just buying the top player in the world, they are also trying to buy up the best youngsters as well, just in case. So these are also now going for inflated prices. Football is f8cked up at the moment.

 

I agree we should be purchasing decent youngsters generally in the £4M-£8M range, so real decent prospects with good sell on potential after 4-5 years service. So I think we have the same general philosophy. I just think it perhaps these two name (given there uninspiring respective league backgrounds) that we disagree on.

 

Can anybody tell me how on earth Belgium are producing some much footballing talent over the last few years - 5-6 years ago you may have struggled to name 2 or 3 Belgium players, yet now we could all probabley name a whole 23 squad of Belgium players. What was implemented with their youth coaching 10-15 years. Did they do something similar to Germany.

[Steve_E]

 

I would love the next Benteka or Lukaku. Chelsea are different to us as they have plenty of spare cash and can afford the speculate and take these sorts of risk on expensive youngsters. Belgium is a real hot bed of footballing talent at the moment, as all your examples highlight and the current belgium national side shows. I am really not sure you can say that the scottish and danish leagues are hot beds of talented youngsters. They are full internationals for Denmark and Kenya, so it a bit like saying Anichebe is a full international, it doesn't really mean that much. If you are talking the top young talent in Holland, France, Spanish or Belgium then I would be inclined to agree with is being a risk worth taking, but can't see the attraction in spending.

 

Scotland and Denmark may not be hot beds of talented youngsters, but we don't need them to be, we just want that one special talent that is playing over there.

 

One of the problem these days is the likes of Chelsea et al are not just buying the top player in the world, they are also trying to buy up the best youngsters as well, just in case. So these are also now going for inflated prices. Football is f8cked up at the moment.

 

I agree. They're sorta ruining it for clubs like us. Not only are they signing the best established players, but they're signing all of the young talents as well and just loaning them out.

 

I agree we should be purchasing decent youngsters generally in the £4M-£8M range, so real decent prospects with good sell on potential after 4-5 years service. So I think we have the same general philosophy. I just think it perhaps these two name (given there uninspiring respective league backgrounds) that we disagree on.

 

Can anybody tell me how on earth Belgium are producing some much footballing talent over the last few years - 5-6 years ago you may have struggled to name 2 or 3 Belgium players, yet now we could all probabley name a whole 23 squad of Belgium players. What was implemented with their youth coaching 10-15 years. Did they do something similar to Germany.

 

I don't know. I don't think any structural changes in coaching have occurred. Some of the top clubs have invested a lot of money in improved infrastructure though. I think it may just be a case of a "special generation".

[Lowensda]

Opening out their player's nationality criteria. France did it a few years ago, took on Armenians and Africans.

[Steve_E]

Opening out their player's nationality criteria. France did it a few years ago, took on Armenians and Africans.

 

I don't get what your saying? :dont know: Are you talking about naturalizing footballers? Cause the only player we've naturalized is Igor De Camargo and he isn't exactly one of those incredibly talented players. (He's married to a Belgian woman and speaks both French and Dutch fluently, unlike most "real" Belgians) Even if that was the case though, it doesn't really explain where all of those really good players from 100% Belgian parentage like the Hazards, De Bruyne, Vertonghen, Mertens, Defour, Alderweireld (likely signing for Leverkusen btw), Mignolet, Courtois, Lestienne (probably not one of those names English football fans know already, but he's gonna be) have come from all of a sudden. A couple of years ago we had losers like Peter Van Der Heyden or Koen Daerden playing for the national team.

 

Guys like Mirallas, Fellaini, Witsel, Benteke, Lukaku, Nainggolan and Chadli were all born in Belgium to immigrant parents (of Spanish, Moroccan, Martiniquean (???), Congolese, Congolese, Indonesian and Moroccan parents respectively) so of course they're open to play for the Belgium national football team. And Kompany and Dembélé both have a Belgian parent and were born here.

[Lowensda]

It certainly wasn't a dig. So please don't take it personally.

 

The second paragraph is closer to what I meant but I wasn't implying that they shouldn't play for Belgium as a result.

 

Trust me, I'm wholeheartedly embracing this new Belgium resurgence, it's incredbile. He asked why and my response was a 'could be why' answer, most definitely not fact.

 

For once, I'd love England to embrace the foreign way. It's not a negative. Look at Germany! Full of Turks, Pols and everyone in between. Arteta was eligible (supposedly) for England, we wouldn't touch him because he wasn't born and bred in Britain. It's bollocks. You take the best players that are eligible.

 

So Steve not a dig, just a response to a question I didn't really have the answer to?

[Steve_E]

It certainly wasn't a dig. So please don't take it personally.

 

The second paragraph is closer to what I meant but I wasn't implying that they shouldn't play for Belgium as a result.

 

Trust me, I'm wholeheartedly embracing this new Belgium resurgence, it's incredbile. He asked why and my response was a 'could be why' answer, most definitely not fact.

 

For once, I'd love England to embrace the foreign way. It's not a negative. Look at Germany! Full of Turks, Pols and everyone in between. Arteta was eligible (supposedly) for England, we wouldn't touch him because he wasn't born and bred in Britain. It's bollocks. You take the best players that are eligible.

 

So Steve not a dig, just a response to a question I didn't really have the answer to?

 

I know it wasn't a dig, my post wasn't meant to have an aggressive tone either, so sorry if it did.

 

England already do that kinda stuff too, don't they? Jagielka is of Polish descent, I'm sure lots of the black players are descendents from immigrants from former colonies (which would be the equivalent of players from Congolese descent like Kompany, Lukaku, Benteke for Belgium), I'm not sure about Lallana but his name certainly doesn't sound very English. Demographically, you might expect more players of South Asian descent to be playing for England, but I can't even think of one playing in the Premier League to be honest.

[RuffRob]

I think after Germany had a poor World Cup (98) and Euro's (2000), they had a massive shake up and changed the whole apprach to the youth set up. The players at the last world cup and in their league now are the fruits of this shake up carried out 10-12 years ago. Read all this when looking at Tuchel as a potentail manager.

 

I just thougth with the almost freakish amount of high quality players coming at once from such a small country like Belgium, had they jumped on the same shake up as their German neighbours?

 

The FA need to seriousely look how german and Belgium youth football is now run.

 

Looking at that Belgium squad, that's really up their with the top three or four international squads.

[Romey 1878]

The FA need to seriousely look how german and Belgium youth football is now run.

 

 

Judging by the FA's recent comments that their responsibility is to the senior team and not to the U21's etc (in terms of making clubs allow their young players to play for the younger England sides) then I don't think that's going to happen. They don't understand at all.

[Louis]

England already do that kinda stuff too, don't they?

Very much so, although it's never talked about. I can't say I have ever seen an article about the Caribbean immigrant influence on the English national team for example.

[Steve_E]

Very much so, although it's never talked about. I can't say I have ever seen an article about the Caribbean immigrant influence on the English national team for example.

 

How come there don't seem to be any players from South Asian descent in England btw? I've never noticed that before. Is that the result of (hopefully) inadvertent racism in club's recruiting policies or what? Or do all of them play cricket

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_UK

==> 0.5% Bangladeshi + 1,6% Pakistani + 1,8% Indian = 3,9% South Asian

==> 1% Black Carribean + 0,8% Black African + 0,2% Black (others) = 2% black

There's 1,2% mixed race as well, for some reason I think most of them are mixed white/black (no stats for that on first sight). But even if they would be all white/black (which they aren't), then there are still more South Asians than black people in the UK. Yet there are lots of black players in the English top divisions and I genuinely can't think of a single South Asian one.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Steve_E

[Peter H]

 

How come there don't seem to be any players from South Asian descent in England btw? I've never noticed that before. Is that the result of (hopefully) inadvertent racism in club's recruiting policies or what? Or do all of them play cricket

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_UK

==> 0.5% Bangladeshi + 1,6% Pakistani + 1,8% Indian = 3,9% South Asian

==> 1% Black Carribean + 0,8% Black African + 0,2% Black (others) = 2% black

There's 1,2% mixed race as well, for some reason I think most of them are mixed white/black (no stats for that on first sight). But even if they would be all white/black (which they aren't), then there are still more South Asians than black people in the UK. Yet there are lots of black players in the English top divisions and I genuinely can't think of a single South Asian one.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Asians_in_association_football

[Louis]

There was a documentary on the BBC about it a few months ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZb3wfcFfuU

 

Asian players said the scouts were bias against them and because of the bias, they were not picked up and their talent was never developed. There was a guy who played for Torquay - he was eligible to play for India but chose not to because their fixture dates clashed with club fixtures, I've forgotten his name unfortunately. There's also Michael Chopra who is half-Indian.

[Peter H]

Heres further reading on the topic, interesting topic, perhaps deserves its own thread instead of taking over Cornelius one

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=TxPRGndP3ZIC&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=british+asians+in+the+premier+league&source=bl&ots=dV3fltyqjy&sig=hxulFT79zHfqPAQMVrOEZEdSoO0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VVzNUbe5Eqi20QH7xYGIDA&ved=0CIsBEOgBMAg#v=onepage&q=british%20asians%20in%20the%20premier%20league&f=false

[mcirony]

Getting back on track for a minute (as genuinely interesting as this discussion is!) I'll be even more gutted if we sign Kone now for 5/6million. 7.5 million for Cornelius may seem steep but he could potentially give them 10-12 years service, or if he is awesome they'll sell him for a profit, or of he's shite they won't make too much of a loss on him if they sell. Whereas with Kone he'll give us 2-3 years max service and have no sell on value.

[The Regulator]

that's is a lot if money - Cardiff are splashing the cash a little, are they not looking to spend around £12.5M on Wanyama. Would be over £20M on players with no real pedigree of playing in a top european league. Not sure I would be to happy if we sold Fellinin and spent the best part of it on these two players. Glad Malky didn't end up at Goodison.

 

Watch these two players have excellent seasons now!!!

 

Being a Cardiffian and an Evertonian I see both sides of the argument. The trick is with a striker like Cornelius, dependent on him having a good season, his goals will justify his price very quickly. If he scores less than a dozen this season, he'd probably be regarded a a failure. Net 10-15 and he'd been seen as a good investment. But 15+ and suddenly he's a bargain.

 

Wanyama, I'll be honest, same as Tom Ince, is doubtful. I personally feel Malky wanted a marquee signing, or at least something close, an expensive, talented player who would boost morale and fan support as wlel as offer something we don't have. With Bellamy, Maynard and Campbell, we've got 3 dwarfs up front. A 6ft 4in striker is something we only had once in the last few seasons (That being Jon Parkin, who despite scoring a tinger on his debut, was essentially that fat dude from the hangover). Now that he's brought in a coveted player I think his interest in players with a sizeable price tag will drop off. I fully expect him to go out and get some defensive cover ( a right back and left back are essential) and most likely grab himself a winger and defense mid. he wanted to make 5 signings, and those are where I think we most need it.

 

However, if Cardiff were to get Wanyama for £10-12m I'd still see that as good business. A strong defensive midfielder, young, talented and more atheletic than most Cardiff players, he'd offer a dynamism that Cardiff simply don't have. In a midfield with Kim Bo Kyung, Whittingham, Gunnarson/Mutch and Noone/Bellamy, I think he'd bring a degree of balance to our mostly attacking players. Plus like Cornelius his age is a massive plus, a few decent seasons with us and his price will naturally inflate, but a few great seasons and cardiff are looking at a nice profit for their big spending.

 

If Everton sold Fellaini and bought Wanyama and cornelius, I wouldn't be disappointed, but I would expect us to get people we know can make a bigger impact. Honda would make more sense for our money and suitability, but he's older and more experienced. Cardiff are in a different situation and so what will benefit them and work for them may niot necessarily be the same for Everton. £19m for two players isn't much when you consider the players your getting, after all, you could spend all that on a Stewart Downing or a Jordan Henderson.

[Iamryanstover]

 

 

How come there don't seem to be any players from South Asian descent in England btw? I've never noticed that before. Is that the result of (hopefully) inadvertent racism in club's recruiting policies or what? Or do all of them play cricket

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_UK

==> 0.5% Bangladeshi + 1,6% Pakistani + 1,8% Indian = 3,9% South Asian

==> 1% Black Carribean + 0,8% Black African + 0,2% Black (others) = 2% black

There's 1,2% mixed race as well, for some reason I think most of them are mixed white/black (no stats for that on first sight). But even if they would be all white/black (which they aren't), then there are still more South Asians than black people in the UK. Yet there are lots of black players in the English top divisions and I genuinely can't think of a single South Asian one.

The only quality South Asian footballer I can think of is Belgian international Radja Nainggolan.

 

I didn't realize how few black people there are in The UK. I guess I did not know what to expect, but I imagine it is similar to here lots minorities in the cities, and next to no minorities in the country. How diverse is Liverpool?

Edited June 28, 2013 by Iamryanstover

[Iamryanstover]

 

Being a Cardiffian and an Evertonian I see both sides of the argument. The trick is with a striker like Cornelius, dependent on him having a good season, his goals will justify his price very quickly. If he scores less than a dozen this season, he'd probably be regarded a a failure. Net 10-15 and he'd been seen as a good investment. But 15+ and suddenly he's a bargain.

That is true. I like Cornelius, but it is worth noting that for all of his goals this season he only scored 1 goal in 6 Europa League matches, but he was only 19 for most of the season.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Iamryanstover

[Romey 1878]

Signed for Cardiff.