thestudent Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 I am a University student currently in the process of writing my dissertation and I am looking at the attitudes towards female football fans. There is limited research on female football fans therefore I want to find out more about the attitudes that both males and females have towards them. The following link is an example of how people may perceive female football fans and I want to gather data to find out if this is representative of the majority of the thoughts of both male and female fans: http://metro.co.uk/2013/12/17/do-you-know-what-4-3-3-means-psg-coach-laurent-blanc-mocks-female-journalist-4233869/ I have posted a question below that will ideally facilitate a discussion between fans. From this, I can evaluate themes and issues for my discussion in my dissertation. Moreover, I have attached a link to a questionnaire below and I would be grateful if you could complete this in addition to participating in a discussion on this thread. For ethical reasons, I will ensure that anyone that chooses to participate in this discussion will remain anonymous through the use of false names in my write up. Therefore, by posting on this thread you are giving me your consent for your comments to be used in my dissertation. The comments are solely for academic studies and will be used in this dissertation only. This also applies to the questionnaire; your identity remains anonymous. If however you would like to participate further in this project, there is an opportunity to leave your email address at the bottom of the questionnaire. This may be a sensitive topic for some people so do not participate if you feel there may be some discomfort. However for those of you that do comment, be honest with your answers as every response will contribute to the results of my study and the more truthful insight I receive, the better. Thank you in advance. The question for this discussion is: Are female fans different to male fans? This can be regarding their knowledge, commitment, behaviour etc.? The questionnaire can be completed here: https://www.survey.bris.ac.uk/durham/femalefans/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluenosetoffee Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Done. FYI, alcohol is banned in many sports stadiums in the US, which makes a huge difference. In addition to the attitude towards female fans, you might want to consider attitudes to female officials. The fact that 50% of officials are not female (since 50% of the population is female) is a disgrace. It's the same with minorities: How many ethnically Chinese or African or India are seen officiating BPL games? Until it reflects their numbers in society, we are, one way or the other, discriminating - and this in part accounts for attitudes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 One other thing... all the best with your dissertation. I have a PhD and understand just how much work goes into these things! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant1979 Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) Done. FYI, alcohol is banned in many sports stadiums in the US, which makes a huge difference. In addition to the attitude towards female fans, you might want to consider attitudes to female officials. The fact that 50% of officials are not female (since 50% of the population is female) is a disgrace. It's the same with minorities: How many ethnically Chinese or African or India are seen officiating BPL games? Until it reflects their numbers in society, we are, one way or the other, discriminating - and this in part accounts for attitudes. I can't agree that it's a 'disgrace' that 50% of officials aren't female. Most women aren't interested and wouldn't want to do it. Yes I know some do, and that's great they should go for it and they should get equal opportunities when they do. But if FA coaching courses and referee training courses are about 1% female (total guess, I've no idea); then we won't get anywhere near 50% female officials. The same is true of minorities - their level of representation in coaching and officiating should represent their level of representation on the training courses, not their % of the population. Just my opinion of course, I've no issue with your views and I usually agree with your posts on here Edited February 19, 2014 by Ant1979 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeQuince Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 I can't agree that it's a 'disgrace' that 50% of officials aren't female. Most women aren't interested and wouldn't want to do it. Yes I know some do, and that's great they should go for it and they should get equal opportunities when they do. But if FA coaching courses and referee training courses are about 1% female (total guess, I've no idea); then we won't get anywhere near 50% female officials. The same is true of minorities - their level of representation in coaching and officiating should represent their level of representation on the training courses, not their % of the population. Just my opinion of course, I've no issue with your views and I usually agree with your posts on here What I might say here is that access to and representation within the sport probably doesn't only reflect simple disparities related to the sport itself; it is probably reflective of deeper societal disparities. Coaching, refereeing, and being involved in the sport in any way is something available to those who have the time, both real and mental, to focus on such things. So, who has the most leisure time? Middle class (and above) white males who have less obligations and expectations placed upon them than say women of all colors, the working class, members of immigrant communities, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 I can't agree that it's a 'disgrace' that 50% of officials aren't female. Most women aren't interested and wouldn't want to do it. Yes I know some do, and that's great they should go for it and they should get equal opportunities when they do. But if FA coaching courses and referee training courses are about 1% female (total guess, I've no idea); then we won't get anywhere near 50% female officials. The same is true of minorities - their level of representation in coaching and officiating should represent their level of representation on the training courses, not their % of the population. Just my opinion of course, I've no issue with your views and I usually agree with your posts on here How many black players are there in the prem? How many black coaches? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 What I might say here is that access to and representation within the sport probably doesn't only reflect simple disparities related to the sport itself; it is probably reflective of deeper societal disparities. Coaching, refereeing, and being involved in the sport in any way is something available to those who have the time, both real and mental, to focus on such things. So, who has the most leisure time? Middle class (and above) white males who have less obligations and expectations placed upon them than say women of all colors, the working class, members of immigrant communities, etc. Yes, I'm exaggerating to make the point. 50% is unreasonable, but 10% is not. Still, what are we doing to encourage women and minorities to become coaches? In my personal experience, when they do sign up, they are sometimes ostracized or spoken to in a demeaning manner. That, of course, is a bigger problem for society to fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant1979 Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 How many black players are there in the prem? How many black coaches? There are obviously loads of black players in the English leagues. What I don't know is what percentage of black players take their coaching badges compared to the percentage of white players. If it's a similar percentage then yes, the representation in numbers of coaches should reflect that. However if only 1% of black players take their coaching badges, compared to 25% of white players, then the numbers of coaches should also reflect that. If somebody actually had those figures it would enable a proper analysis. There may well be an issue with black coaches getting passed over for jobs unfairly, but I don't have the facts to back that up so I can't comment really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nikica Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) I can't agree that it's a 'disgrace' that 50% of officials aren't female. Most women aren't interested and wouldn't want to do it. Yes I know some do, and that's great they should go for it and they should get equal opportunities when they do. But if FA coaching courses and referee training courses are about 1% female (total guess, I've no idea); then we won't get anywhere near 50% female officials. The same is true of minorities - their level of representation in coaching and officiating should represent their level of representation on the training courses, not their % of the population. Just my opinion of course, I've no issue with your views and I usually agree with your posts on here Agreed, affirmative action is condescending and doesn't do a lot to fight prejudice. It should be best person for the job regardless of creed, gender, sexuality etc. In saying this Sian Massey is one of the best assistant referees going, and while 50% is optimistic, I know for a fact that there are plenty of women who could do a better job than many of the male officials, if given the chance. I answered your questionnaire, 'thestudent'. I'd also like to say good luck on your dissertation, and that sexism (or any prejudice) should never be welcome in football. As I said in the Q, one of the things that makes football the beautiful game is that it is inclusive to all, regardless of colour, gender, sexuality, social and economic status etc. Edited February 21, 2014 by Nikica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thestudent Posted February 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 The questionnaire can be completed here: https://www.survey.bris.ac.uk/durham/femalefans/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 I work in HR and therefore encourage diversity. In saying that I have no time for positive discrimination. The whole Rooney rule bollocks is something that Garth crooks and Clarke Carlisle use as some form of platform to use their patronising overly eloquent way of bullshitting through. There may be a need for it in USA where let's face it they still behave like a bunch of Neanderthal red necks in the NFL. I believe we are ok in this regard over in England. An above point was well made... The number of female, black, Chinese or whatever officials, managers etc should be proportionate to the number who take and complete the relevant badges/qualifications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 An above point was well made... The number of female, black, Chinese or whatever officials, managers etc should be proportionate to the number who take and complete the relevant badges/qualifications.should they bollocks - the best people for the job should be hired, no relation to sex / creed / colour should matter. If, out of 100 positions, 100 black Asian women are best suited, give them the job. If not, give it to the person who is best suited and if that's 100 white men, so be it - IF they're the best candidates. Pandering to this notion of quotas is pointless and more degrading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 should they bollocks - the best people for the job should be hired, no relation to sex / creed / colour should matter. If, out of 100 positions, 100 black Asian women are best suited, give them the job. If not, give it to the person who is best suited and if that's 100 white men, so be it - IF they're the best candidates. Pandering to this notion of quotas is pointless and more degrading. Now that's where the real part is... The best person is down to ability. correct? Since when has ability to do a management / brain processed role depended on skin colour or sex??? So my argument would be that unless that isn't the case the the number of woman/black applicants would be proportionate to the number of successful applicantants. Anything dramatically different would suggest discrimination one way or the other. Ie. If 80% of 200 qualified applicants were black and only 20% of black applications were successful then that is disproportionate - and vice versa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 But it's not as simple as that. Are women encouraged to coach youth teams or to train to be a coach? Are the facilities appropriate for women as well as men? How do officials respond to demeaning or hostile or suggestive comments made to women? From my experience, a lot if improvement is needed in these areas. Until they are made, far fewer women will obtain their coaching credentials, which means there is discrimination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldfishMemory Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 All female fans should go the match with their boobies out FACT! StevO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 But it's not as simple as that. Are women encouraged to coach youth teams or to train to be a coach? Are the facilities appropriate for women as well as men? How do officials respond to demeaning or hostile or suggestive comments made to women? From my experience, a lot if improvement is needed in these areas. Until they are made, far fewer women will obtain their coaching credentials, which means there is discrimination. Some of this does also need to be appreciated by appetite. You can't get away from the fact that a minority of women are interested in becoming a professional in the football world versus men. You can track that down to their behaviour as a toddler. Boys will kick a ball and girls may play with dolls. So as much as I'm into diversity, let's be realistic too. Tennis is possibly the most unisex popular sport and I believe the blend is more than fair there. Women play less sets and get equal money, despite lower attendances. They are often officials, coaches etc. So I do feel it is down to appetite. Ant1979 and Romey 1878 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 Now that's where the real part is... The best person is down to ability. correct? Since when has ability to do a management / brain processed role depended on skin colour or sex??? So my argument would be that unless that isn't the case the the number of woman/black applicants would be proportionate to the number of successful applicantants. Anything dramatically different would suggest discrimination one way or the other. Ie. If 80% of 200 qualified applicants were black and only 20% of black applications were successful then that is disproportionate - and vice versa. I said best person. Ability (mental and physical, depending on the job), personality, potential, theres a mix of things. Ive worked in logistics (warehousing mostly) where I can safely say 99% of the people Ive worked with are men, white men. Thats not down to discrimination, thats just who applied and who were best suited to warehousing. For management roles, I agree, its got nothing to do with sex or skin colour - its down to the best candidate. But as soon as you put quotas in to fill, as soon as you recognize differences in people that make no impact on the actual job (sex, skin colour, religion), you discriminate. I think it starts at education if you really want to get into it. Equal education for all, giving clear expectations of the different areas of work after that. But even then, thats no guarantee and of course, thats ideal world stuff. Anyway, I dont care about the sex or colour of their skin, I will hire who I think is best based on the people I interview. Simple as that. I realise however that there are people who may not be as open minded, but I would hope with education, that this discrimination going forward will be taught out. Maybe Ive been speaking French too long, and Im not explaining myself correctly because my English is slipping! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant1979 Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 I said best person. Ability (mental and physical, depending on the job), personality, potential, theres a mix of things. Ive worked in logistics (warehousing mostly) where I can safely say 99% of the people Ive worked with are men, white men. Thats not down to discrimination, thats just who applied and who were best suited to warehousing. For management roles, I agree, its got nothing to do with sex or skin colour - its down to the best candidate. But as soon as you put quotas in to fill, as soon as you recognize differences in people that make no impact on the actual job (sex, skin colour, religion), you discriminate. I think it starts at education if you really want to get into it. Equal education for all, giving clear expectations of the different areas of work after that. But even then, thats no guarantee and of course, thats ideal world stuff. Anyway, I dont care about the sex or colour of their skin, I will hire who I think is best based on the people I interview. Simple as that. I realise however that there are people who may not be as open minded, but I would hope with education, that this discrimination going forward will be taught out. Maybe Ive been speaking French too long, and Im not explaining myself correctly because my English is slipping! I don't think Haf is disagreeing with you. I think (Haf correct me if I'm wrong), that he was agreeing in part with my earlier post. All I was saying that I don't agree with positive discrimination. I.e. the number of minority workers in a certain field should 'roughly' match the percentage of applicants, not exceed it. This is all based on them being equally skilled and experienced to the non-minority applicants of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 I don't think Haf is disagreeing with you. I think (Haf correct me if I'm wrong), that he was agreeing in part with my earlier post. All I was saying that I don't agree with positive discrimination. I.e. the number of minority workers in a certain field should 'roughly' match the percentage of applicants, not exceed it. This is all based on them being equally skilled and experienced to the non-minority applicants of course. wasnt sure, but he usually does so I went with that Not a good week.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 In short - any discrimination needs addressing. However "imbalances" that aren't down to discrimination need to be left well alone as it leads to positive discrimination. example:- A local nursery advertises for a vacancy for a childrens nanny. Statistically 95% of nannies are Female - does this mean Men are being discriminated against??? My guess is that the majority of males would not like to be a childrens nanny - and that is that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 Things need to change and are changing slowly. I remember many years ago reading about a Scottish Golf Club. They had lady members but the ladies were not allowed in the club house. There was a window at the side of the club house where ladies could buy refreshments. The ladies were lobbying for permission to use the clubhouse. The Club Committee met to discuss this and came up with a compromise. The compromise was to put a canvas awning over the window so the ladies didn't get wet when they were queuing. This is a true story and illustrates how things need to change but they need to change sensibly. Many years ago at my own Golf Club the ladies were pushing for equality of membership with the men. The club called a general meeting and at the meeting I said that I was in favour of total 100% equality for the ladies, which went down very well with them. I went on to say that there should not be any playing time restrictions for ladies but the ladies tees would disappear, all the mens and ladies competitions would disappear and that new 'club competitions' would be introduced which both men and ladies would compete for on equal terms. Membership fees for ladies would increase to be the same as the fee for men. There was nearly a riot, even though the offer was for 100% equality. I then made it clear that my suggestions were made tongue in cheek, to illustrate the point that the terms of 'equality' have to be based on practicalities and common sense. We can have women referees and assistant referees in the football league but is it practical to insist that 50% of all football league teams are women. Ant1979 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 Things need to change and are changing slowly. I remember many years ago reading about a Scottish Golf Club. They had lady members but the ladies were not allowed in the club house. There was a window at the side of the club house where ladies could buy refreshments. The ladies were lobbying for permission to use the clubhouse. The Club Committee met to discuss this and came up with a compromise. The compromise was to put a canvas awning over the window so the ladies didn't get wet when they were queuing. This is a true story and illustrates how things need to change but they need to change sensibly. Many years ago at my own Golf Club the ladies were pushing for equality of membership with the men. The club called a general meeting and at the meeting I said that I was in favour of total 100% equality for the ladies, which went down very well with them. I went on to say that there should not be any playing time restrictions for ladies but the ladies tees would disappear, all the mens and ladies competitions would disappear and that new 'club competitions' would be introduced which both men and ladies would compete for on equal terms. Membership fees for ladies would increase to be the same as the fee for men. There was nearly a riot, even though the offer was for 100% equality. I then made it clear that my suggestions were made tongue in cheek, to illustrate the point that the terms of 'equality' have to be based on practicalities and common sense. We can have women referees and assistant referees in the football league but is it practical to insist that 50% of all football league teams are women. You make some good points, John, but I would challenge you on a couple of things. 1) There's a big difference between playing and officiating or managing. The suggestion is not that women should play on current men's league teams, but that women should be encouraged to officiate those games. As for equal rights when it comes to playing, it comes down to commonsense, as you suggest. Women, on the whole, are not as strong as men, and this must be taken into account. 2) There should be no compromises when it comes to discrimination. Why shouldn't women be allowed to be in the clubhouse? It's ridiculous to offer them access to a covered area to keep out the rain. If I were a woman, I'd find the suggestion very demeaning. In addition to overcoming stereotypes that are deeply ingrained in society, I suspect the biggest practical issue is about separate facilities. Where are the women's changing rooms, showers, and toilets, for example? Adding them could incur significant costs. As far as I'm concerned, if this is what's necessary, so be it. In light of player salaries, the cost would be peanuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant1979 Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 You make some good points, John, but I would challenge you on a couple of things. 2) There should be no compromises when it comes to discrimination. Why shouldn't women be allowed to be in the clubhouse? It's ridiculous to offer them access to a covered area to keep out the rain. If I were a woman, I'd find the suggestion very demeaning. John was using that as an example of when things were even worse, no challenge needed there you both agree fully on that point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 John was using that as an example of when things were even worse, no challenge needed there you both agree fully on that point You're right. 'Challenge' was the wrong word because we do agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 Yes, we are all in agreement. I suppose a degree of progress is represented by the fact that when I read about the Scottish Golf Club in the 1970's I thought it was very funny. I don't now. I think the emphasis should be on the term 'equal opportunity' rather than 'equality'. Opportunity should be sacrosanct, but I don't believe in quotas. Ant1979 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nikica Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 (edited) Things need to change and are changing slowly. I remember many years ago reading about a Scottish Golf Club. They had lady members but the ladies were not allowed in the club house. There was a window at the side of the club house where ladies could buy refreshments. The ladies were lobbying for permission to use the clubhouse. The Club Committee met to discuss this and came up with a compromise. The compromise was to put a canvas awning over the window so the ladies didn't get wet when they were queuing. This is a true story and illustrates how things need to change but they need to change sensibly. Many years ago at my own Golf Club the ladies were pushing for equality of membership with the men. The club called a general meeting and at the meeting I said that I was in favour of total 100% equality for the ladies, which went down very well with them. I went on to say that there should not be any playing time restrictions for ladies but the ladies tees would disappear, all the mens and ladies competitions would disappear and that new 'club competitions' would be introduced which both men and ladies would compete for on equal terms. Membership fees for ladies would increase to be the same as the fee for men. There was nearly a riot, even though the offer was for 100% equality. I then made it clear that my suggestions were made tongue in cheek, to illustrate the point that the terms of 'equality' have to be based on practicalities and common sense. We can have women referees and assistant referees in the football league but is it practical to insist that 50% of all football league teams are women. As regards the bold, I completely agree with you that equality between the sexes is paramount. However, there is a section of the female population (namely many feminists), who want 'equality' but wish to retain the perks of being a woman e.g. chivalry and cheaper fees for the same services, as you mention. This, ironically, simply leads to more misogyny and bitterness against women, which does nobody any good. Look at the discrimination in courts over custody battles - women tend to be favoured, often incorrectly. What I'm saying is that prejudice works both ways, but feminists are so sensitive that they'd label the two of us misogynists for what I have said here as well your insistence that women pay the same fees as men for the same service. That's where it all becomes too politically correct. Sometimes it feels like any criticism of women - regardless of how fair - is labelled as misogynistic. That is very irritating - these rabid feminists are everything that's wrong with the struggle between the sexes as they instigate it. Many women seem to demand respect simply because they're female too ("have you no respect for women?"). I respect people based on their character and actions, not their genitals, and many women deserve zero respect, as do many men. That sense of entitlement and demand to be respected unconditionally is ironically something which will make me not respect a woman in the slightest. Edited March 9, 2014 by Nikica Romey 1878 and Matt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thestudent Posted March 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Many thanks to those of you who participated in the fan forum discussion on differences between male and female fans and/or completed the questionnaire. I am now planning to write up the findings for an academic study and for my undergraduate dissertation. All respondents will remain completely anonymous. If you have any queries about how the material will be used please don't hesitate to contact me through a private message. Regards, The Student. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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