Trump all over again

[Cornish Steve]

Sadly, we can't escape this man. For good or ill (and I struggle to find any good), he dominates the news daily. Now the special prosecutor has issued an indictment for attempting to overturn the results of a presidential election, the US is split to an even greater extreme. About half the country believe that no-one is above the law and Trump should face the charges made against him; the other half (amazingly - one entire half) believe the justice system has become politicized, that this is nothing more than a witch hunt, and that "communists, fascists, and socialists" are out to stop Trump from winning back the presidency. Frankly, it's sickening to see the great country in which I've now lived for over 37 years be torn apart like this at its very foundations.

[Cornish Steve]

33 minutes ago, RPG said:

Third, this prosecution has taken 3 years to put together but Trump has been given, I believe, only 3 months to get his defence sorted. It is very easy, therefore, to make the credible case that the timing, at least, of the trial is very political and is designed to impede Trump's (re)election campaign.

I've heard a lot along these lines today, but the conclusion is wrong. Congress held special hearings into the events of January 6. They took time since other hearings in recent years (such as into Trump's links with Russia) were rushed. Only when those hearings ended did they recommend prosecution. That happened in January this year - a little over six months ago. That's the time the prosecutor has had to build his case, not three years.

Plus, if it takes three years for the police to build a case against a murderer, for example, does that mean the murderer gets three years to prepare his defense? This is, as always, deliberate obfuscation by Trump and his supporters.

[Cornish Steve]

16 hours ago, RPG said:

Any ripostes to the other 6 points I made?

Sure, although I wouldn't want to get into an extended discussion since, from experience, they tend to divide rather than unite. Maybe we can agree on some matters, though.

On 02/08/2023 at 12:50, RPG said:

First off, Trump isn't the reason you can't escape Trump. The Special Prosecutor is the reason Trump is in the news. I am sure Trump would rather not be in the news at the moment.

It isn't about Jean Carroll; it's about Trump's sexual abuse and slander against her. It isn't about two police officers who are suing Trump; it's about Trump and his incendiary comments and actions that led to attacks on police. It isn't about the New York AG; it's about Trump's alleged tax violations. It isn't about the special prosecutor in Florida; it's about Trump stealing, sharing, and deliberately hiding some of the nation's most closely guarded secrets. It won't be about the Atlanta prosecutor; it will be about Trump's phone call and other actions designed to overturn provenly valid election results. And it's not about the special prosecutor in the latest indictment, who's simply doing his job; instead, it's about Trump's attempt to undermine the United States Constitution and determination not to concede power. Sadly, as always, it's about Donald Trump. Frankly, that's what he wants, since, as the adage goes, all publicity is good publicity.

On 02/08/2023 at 12:50, RPG said:

Second, everyone is innocent until proven guilty and it is going to be a very difficult job to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt. The high burden of proof rests with the Special Prosecutor.

Agreed, but this is his job. Putting aside all the politics, I have faith in the American justice system. Every claim that the presidential election was rigged has been proven false in court. The president's alleged crimes will be tested in court, and the prosecution will fail if they cannot be proved beyond reasonable doubt to a jury of his fellow citizens. Given the number of his former team who, almost daily, are stating publicly that Trump's actions were criminal, I suspect the case may hold up.

On 02/08/2023 at 12:50, RPG said:

Fourth, I am neither pro nor anti Trump but I do feel that he has absolutely no chance of a fair trial as both sides of the political divide will be putting their spin on every single day of proceedings.

It won't be easy, that's for sure, but this isn't the only case in history where a prominent individual is on trial for something almost everyone is aware of. The legal system, I'm sure, will ensure the trial is fair.

On 02/08/2023 at 12:50, RPG said:

Fifth, from a political point of view I don't think this does politics in general in the USA any favours whatsoever.

This has nothing to do with politics. It's all about the rule of law. No-one, not even a former president, is above the law, and the alleged crimes are heinous in every respect. It would be a travesty not to prosecute. Maybe I can quote a Proverb (#24 to be precise): "Whoever says to the guilty, 'You are innocent,' will be cursed by peoples and denounced by nations. But it will go well with those who convict the guilty, and rich blessing will come on them." What was true three thousand years ago, when the words were written, remains true today.

On 02/08/2023 at 12:50, RPG said:

Sixth, Trump, whether you like him or loathe him, is a skilled orator and he has just been given a massive public platform, entirely for free, by the Democrat led government if you believe the trial is politically motivated. Either way, he still has the platform.

Agreed, and he's reveling in it right now. His support has not fallen. His supporters are more fired up. I can't help but notice that his accusations against others, almost invariably, are the very accusations made against him. And the name of his social media platform is straight out of Orwell: Truth.

On 02/08/2023 at 12:50, RPG said:

Seventh, from a USA point of view, it is a Lose/Lose situation and it is very sad to see.

On this, I disagree. Showing the world that the rule of law can be applied to literally anyone, regardless of status, will be a powerful message and may even dissuade some world leaders from their own attempted coups. It will also give the American people, in the next election, the opportunity to once and for all choose between the Constitution and rule of law, on the one hand, and a powerful cult of personality on the other. I retain sufficient respect and belief in Americans to remain convinced they will choose the former.

[Palfy]

 You are 100% right nobody should be above the law, this may improve his chances to win the next Presidential election that will be a decision for the American people to decide, but the rule of law has to be seen to be upheld without the interference of political parties. 

[MikeO]

Bloody Democratic party witch-hunt!

[Formby]

19 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

Sure, although I wouldn't want to get into an extended discussion since, from experience, they tend to divide rather than unite. Maybe we can agree on some matters, though.

It isn't about Jean Carroll; it's about Trump's sexual abuse and slander against her. It isn't about two police officers who are suing Trump; it's about Trump and his incendiary comments and actions that led to attacks on police. It isn't about the New York AG; it's about Trump's alleged tax violations. It isn't about the special prosecutor in Florida; it's about Trump stealing, sharing, and deliberately hiding some of the nation's most closely guarded secrets. It won't be about the Atlanta prosecutor; it will be about Trump's phone call and other actions designed to overturn provenly valid election results. And it's not about the special prosecutor in the latest indictment, who's simply doing his job; instead, it's about Trump's attempt to undermine the United States Constitution and determination not to concede power. Sadly, as always, it's about Donald Trump. Frankly, that's what he wants, since, as the adage goes, all publicity is good publicity.

Agreed, but this is his job. Putting aside all the politics, I have faith in the American justice system. Every claim that the presidential election was rigged has been proven false in court. The president's alleged crimes will be tested in court, and the prosecution will fail if they cannot be proved beyond reasonable doubt to a jury of his fellow citizens. Given the number of his former team who, almost daily, are stating publicly that Trump's actions were criminal, I suspect the case may hold up.

It won't be easy, that's for sure, but this isn't the only case in history where a prominent individual is on trial for something almost everyone is aware of. The legal system, I'm sure, will ensure the trial is fair.

This has nothing to do with politics. It's all about the rule of law. No-one, not even a former president, is above the law, and the alleged crimes are heinous in every respect. It would be a travesty not to prosecute. Maybe I can quote a Proverb (#24 to be precise): "Whoever says to the guilty, 'You are innocent,' will be cursed by peoples and denounced by nations. But it will go well with those who convict the guilty, and rich blessing will come on them." What was true three thousand years ago, when the words were written, remains true today.

Agreed, and he's reveling in it right now. His support has not fallen. His supporters are more fired up. I can't help but notice that his accusations against others, almost invariably, are the very accusations made against him. And the name of his social media platform is straight out of Orwell: Truth.

On this, I disagree. Showing the world that the rule of law can be applied to literally anyone, regardless of status, will be a powerful message and may even dissuade some world leaders from their own attempted coups. It will also give the American people, in the next election, the opportunity to once and for all choose between the Constitution and rule of law, on the one hand, and a powerful cult of personality on the other. I retain sufficient respect and belief in Americans to remain convinced they will choose the former.

Wheeling out the big guns there, Steve - Solomon and Orwell. I am sure your assessment of the American people is correct, and truth, as George Washington said, will ultimately prevail.   

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, RPG said:

I actually agree with you there 100%. The issue is, though, that Trump's argument is that there already is political interference in both the nature of the charges he faces and the likely timing of the trial that will be assoiciated with them. That, defacto, makes it a trial with political interference, whether that was the intention of Biden's government in the beginning or not. In other words, it makes it a public trial of who do you like/believe in and Trump is streets ahead of any opponent in any party on both counts there. Many people in USA might hate Trump with a vengeance but many more love him and this trial may further enhance Trump's popularity with the voters and, as you rightly suggest, may actually propel him into the Oval Office for a second term.

If Trump's legal team are half decent (which they are) they will delay matters long enough so that Trump cannot be legally barred from running for office and, when he does and is successful, just watch the trial collapse like a pack of cards.

I'm not saying that would be a good or a bad thing to happen but I do think it is now the most likely outcome.

As far as I’m aware if found guilty or not he can still stand for the Presidency even if imprisoned. Regardless of fake news from Republicans or Democrats he is being charged  because there is evidence that he broke the law, should he face justice for doing so or should he be exempt because of who he is. And if his political team do manage to stop any trial until after the election and he wins, I think the first thing he will do is give himself a presidential pardon. Personally I don’t think his charges go far enough, I would be charging him with man slaughter after the Capital riots, because it would never have happened if not for his lying about the Presidential election and encouraging a mob to take control of the capital, but that’s just my wishful thinking. But I’ll settle for him being charged with the charges that he’s been charged with, hopefully he will be found guilty and is sentenced for his crimes against the USA. 

[Palfy]

22 minutes ago, RPG said:

If he broke the law then of course he should face justice like anyone else. The issue is not in the theory but the practice. Trump won't be afforded the practical opportunity to face trial 'like anyone else' because of the political and media circus that surrounds him and will continue to surround him. I really don't think he can expect a fair trial because, inter alia, of all the political spin doctoring that has taken place, is taking place and will continue to take place by both Republicans and Democrats. The, in theory, simple exercise of agreeing on a jury is going to be pure theatre in itself in practice and will probably take an age. Each jury member's political allegiance will be questioned, checked and then objected to by either the defence or the prosecution. There are so many additional obstacles to ensuring that justice is served here that, despite the honest best efforts of those charged (no pun intended) with delivering justice, I think they will have an impossible task and it will get to the point (if necessary) that Trump's team ask for the charges to be dismissed on the grounds that it is impossible for Trump to get a fair trial.

Did Trump actually encourage the mob or did he just do nothing to try to stop them? If he did say anything that could be 'interpreted' as encouraging them, was it actually illegal? Eg, if he said something like 'It is every US citizens right to protest and demonstrate' then what is wrong with that? The defence team are going to pick holes, word by word, line by line, sentence by sentence, paragraph by paragraphi and page by page in everything the prosecution presents I think. That is after all the 'points of order' regarding jury selection, location of court for the trial, date for the trial etc, etc have been objected to, challenged in court, appealed to the supreme court if necessary etc etc. It's going to be a real mess before any trial, proper, actually begins imho. And the longer this takes, the longer the jury have to be exposed to the spin doctors of each side, andmaybe even worse. They could find themselves 'influenced' by merely turning on the tv or listening to the radio.

You tell me after everything that he said and tweeted do you believe he’s innocent or guilty of the charges against him. 

[Cornish Steve]

6 minutes ago, RPG said:

most of the electorate seem to love him for doing it.

70% of those who identify as Republicans, yes, and all those addicted to Fox News. I'd suggest virtually no-one other than that.

[MikeO]

 

[Palfy]

42 minutes ago, MikeO said:

 

I think we know someone stupid enough. 

[StevO]

You know you’re a top level manipulator of people’s opinions when you get a Brit who lives in the far east supporting Trump like RPG is right now.

 

The man is a crook, a criminal and an absolute charlatan. 
If he genuinely cared about America he would not be dragging it through the mud for nothing but personal gain. 
 

The world is a worse place because of people like Trump and Boris gaining the highest positions of power. 
 

Thankfully, if found guilty, the 14th amendment should keep him from power for the rest of his life. Hopefully the remainder of his followers also lose power and sensible people can look to the United States as a place to admire again. 

[StevO]

2 hours ago, RPG said:

But you see (or maybe you don't) I am neither for or against Trump. I am for justice.

Your posts make it very very clear you are for Trump.
It’s your choice, you don’t need to hide from it. He’s brainwashed plenty of others. 

[StevO]

2 hours ago, RPG said:

If you can take a former POTUS to court in this partisan way then it therefore follows that you can also take a sitting POTUS to court too.

Partisan? There are many republicans who have brought these charges to him, many of them who were put into those positions by Trump himself. 
The only people saying this is partisan seem to be Trump and his supporters. 
 

So many of his allies have started talking differently since criminal charges have been apparent. When it was “just lying to the voters” they didn’t mind supporting him. Now that they may have a genuine threat suddenly they told him to concede, they did their jobs, they didn’t get involved. Cowards who can’t even stand by their own bullshit. 
 

Make no mistake, by the end of this whole process it will be his own people that take him down. Not the Democrats. 

[StevO]

Just now, RPG said:

Steve, I am neither for nor against him. Please don't try to tell me what I think. You will not succeed.

Once again, for the hard of thinking: I am neither for nor against Trump. I am for justice.

After reading your posts, if you can still say you aren’t for Trump, then I don’t think I can continue the debate. See you in another thread. 

[KinL]

17 hours ago, Palfy said:

As far as I’m aware if found guilty or not he can still stand for the Presidency even if imprisoned. Regardless of fake news from Republicans or Democrats he is being charged  because there is evidence that he broke the law, should he face justice for doing so or should he be exempt because of who he is. And if his political team do manage to stop any trial until after the election and he wins, I think the first thing he will do is give himself a presidential pardon. Personally I don’t think his charges go far enough, I would be charging him with man slaughter after the Capital riots, because it would never have happened if not for his lying about the Presidential election and encouraging a mob to take control of the capital, but that’s just my wishful thinking. But I’ll settle for him being charged with the charges that he’s been charged with, hopefully he will be found guilty and is sentenced for his crimes against the USA. 

Charge him with the manslaughter of who?

[Sibdane]

If you can’t see Trump is guilty then you’re bonkers. That’s really all there is to say. 

[MikeO]

8 hours ago, RPG said:

But you see (or maybe you don't) I am neither for or against Trump. I am for justice.

If you ask me if I would like Trump as a person if I ever met him, the answer is I suspect, a big no. But that doesn't (or shouldn't) make him guilty of any crime in a court of law.

I am certainly not trying to manipulate people's opinions - Trump is - but that is what all politicians try to do, isn't it! Trump is maybe just a bit better at it than most other US  politicians. The electorate should then be free to make a choice at an honest (uncorrupted by dodgy postal votes) ballot box. But this isn't an election, its a criminal trial and we can't judge him like it's an election. Unfortunately, this is what will happen and is already starting to happen and it means that the chance of a fair trial (aka justice) for Trump is very slim.

The US establishment could have handled this situation very differently (maybe it tried - we will likely never know) but it has now gone way past the point of no return and there will have to be a winner and a loser - not just in the eyes of US law but in the eyes of the world, which, of course, includes the US electorate. I therefore think we are in for some great theatre, with every dirty trick in the book (plus a few more) being brought into play. I do not see this 'theatre' serving the needs of justice or USA in any way, shape or form though.

Biden has to be very careful here too. Hunter Biden has already pleaded guilty to tax evasion and 'Joe's' hands look like they need a good wash in some strong legal disinfectant too. If you can take a former POTUS to court in this partisan way then it therefore follows that you can also take a sitting POTUS to court too. This is not going to do USA any good at all. Nixon resigned over Watergate. I wonder what Biden might do if some of his dodgy business deals were deemed worthy of further legal scrutiny?

But, just to be clear, I am neither pro nor anti Trump. I am pro justice and I see no way that Trump can get a fair trial. And whatever the outcome, it will reflect badly on USA.

 

2 hours ago, RPG said:

I post this link without any opinion from me and I invite those who think that the justice system in USA is fair and free of political interference to read it.

The link was posted on a facebook page by a good American friend of mine who added his own opinion, which I find it very hard to disagree with.

Quote:  I sincerely hope that my democrat friends take a minute to read this piece and then try to dispute it with factual contradictory evidence. Not laughing emojis or I hate Trump rants. I believe our judicial,system has been weaponized and is being used by the democrats to keep the attention off of their mentally deprived and influence peddling President. PS I have stated constantly that I am not Trump supporter. Unquote:

 

https://www.dailysignal.com/2023/08/04/two-sets-of-laws-for-two-americas/?fbclid=IwAR1Sn31FOemvSnfYxaJHTZKQ6Bb5qbRpe-1AiFzQ0A0vcm5tF1Om1JAPP7U

Straight out of the MAGA playbook...

[Sibdane]

27 minutes ago, RPG said:

So, what do you suggest - not bother with the trial and go straight to the lynching?

No, we go to trial as that is the way. Never did I say we shouldn’t. 

[MikeO]

1 hour ago, RPG said:

Your partisan discomfort in the linked facts is understandable

"Facts" posted on a right wing media site published by a conservative "think tank"?

And the author, 'is a supporter of Donald Trump, authoring a 2019 book called The Case for Trump. Trump praised the book, in which Hanson defends Trump's insults and incendiary language as "uncouth authenticity", and praises Trump for "an uncanny ability to troll and create hysteria among his media and political critics."

Very balanced.

You can surely do better than that.

 

[MikeO]

4 minutes ago, RPG said:

Facts are facts, Surely you can do better than continued attempts at deflection.

But they're not facts in any sense of the word; if I was being kind I'd call them speculation, if not then I'd call them far right conspiracy theories.

I can find some "facts" from left wing media if you like, I'm sure you'll take them all at face value.

[Sibdane]

11 minutes ago, RPG said:

Then, if you believe in justice, you believe that Trump is innocent until proven guilty, don't you?

At the moment, in a legal sense, he is innocent until proven guilty. I do, however, have the personal opinion that he is guilty based on the information and facts that are currently out there. There can be a distinction without compromising “justice.” 
 

[Palfy]

17 hours ago, KinL said:

Charge him with the manslaughter of who?

5 people died in the capital riot which he fuelled by encouraging his far right supporters to storm the seat of democracy in the USA, if it wasn’t for his actions and words that riot would not have taken place and 5 people wouldn’t have lost their lives. 

[KinL]

5 hours ago, Palfy said:

5 people died in the capital riot which he fuelled by encouraging his far right supporters to storm the seat of democracy in the USA, if it wasn’t for his actions and words that riot would not have taken place and 5 people wouldn’t have lost their lives. 

Two died from heart attacks, one from an amphetamine overdose, one unarmed lady was shot and killed by a Capitol police officer, and the other died a day later of natural causes after suffering two strokes. It's probably a good job you're not on the jury if you want to convict someone of the manslaughter of people who've died of natural causes.

[Matt]

13 hours ago, RPG said:

Facts are facts, Surely you can do better than continued attempts at deflection.

Let's talk about facts. Ironically, something Trump not only doesn't give a shit about, and actually uses willful ignoranceand "fake news" as a strategy. So I'll cite the only source I know to be neutral;

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

I've been trying to stay out of this. But I cant help myself, so here goes. ..

I'm going to take you at your word, Rusty, and assume you're staying neutral. Please keep in mind though, with your past political posts and opinions, that it's hard to see that neutrality especially when coupled with the automatic dismissal of anything other than right-wing blogs. Yes, I'm aware that some are sharing left-wing sources too. I'm sure the intention is "balance" but it doesn't back up the neutral stand point. 

You've said at least 2 things that made me laugh;

1) "most of the electorate seem to love him for doing it". If that was the case, he'd have won the election he's repeatedly said was fraudulent. It's simply not true. 

2) "Trump won't be afforded the practical opportunity to face trial 'like anyone else' because of the political and media circus that surrounds him". Absolutely correct but missing 1 very important addition; he has created this circus through his own actions and deliberate tactical approach to his political career. His, sometimes predatory, tactics have been about creating this circus to detract from reality, encouraging distrust to maximise the opportunity a split country has provided him. The fact that the media, whether CNN or Fox News and everything in between, have enabled him and danced to his tune for so long in the name of views (aka, money) is only true because of him. Opinion maybe but its fundamentally true too. So the media is absolutely to blame here too, on both sides. But neither would have the fuel or inclination to do so without his antics providing so much material for them.

For the record, my personal opinion is that the man is an evil, revolting waste of oxygen who I wouldn't piss on if he was on fire, and I've no doubt in my mind he should be in jail for a myriad of offences.

I agree the facts will come out in trial amd until then he is innocent. But it won't be a fair trial because he's orchestrated that situation for his own personal past gain and now he's seeing the cost on the other side of the coin for his past actions. 

Regardless of the outcome and how's it's achieved, it's a lose/lose for the country and the world; either he's proven innocent which won't be accepted by those against him and it encourages other dangerous leaders around the world to act worse than they are. Or he's guilty and the slight minority (because it  unfortunately is closer than it should be) rebel and, potentially, start a civil war. 

 

[Matt]

Think you missed quite a bit of that to be honest, a couple of points deliberately to the point Trump would likely be proud. But there's no point in going tit for fact so I'll stick the topic on ignore for my own sanity. 

[StevO]

23 hours ago, RPG said:

If we are to have a fair system of justice then should it not apply equally to all?

We?

You’re a Brit living in Malaysia, talking to Mike here in England. I don’t think we comes into it with the justice system in the states. 
 

Justice is given if you can afford it, if you can’t then you’re fucked! But, if you’ve not committed a crime you should have nothing to worry about, right? Especially if you can afford a team of very highly paid lawyers to do the work for you. Unless a crime has been committed and it’s really hard to prove your innocence. 
 

Now, I must try harder to stay out of this thread. 

[Sibdane]

8 hours ago, RPG said:

I wouldn't try to deny you your right to an opinion, but that is all it is.

No shit. That’s why we go to court to prove otherwise. 

[Sibdane]

44 minutes ago, RPG said:

And that is also why Trump is allowed to defend himself.

Yes… that’s right. Good job. 

[StevO]

You would think he would be too busy for nonsense like this