The Elections....

[Louis]

Someone had to start the thread..

 

Does anyone take an active interest in politics on here?

[Romey 1878]

I did for about a year while I was doing Government & Politics at College, but not so much any more.

[Lowensda]

I did for about a year while I was doing Government & Politics at College, but not so much any more.

 

Always the way, always the way...

 

 

Im voting for Ian's party.... Im not...i have no idea who tbh.

[marcopaulo]

i try to pay attention to it i think its worth it every few years but this year im so disillusioned with the lot of them to be honest

[Matt]

never voted, never likely to vote. They will all make promises they cant keep and end up lying through the painted smiles. waste of time and effort....

[MikeO]

Love it....be up half the night watching the results. Parents were very active (both were local candidates) so I was brought up in it. Was in the Question Time audience a few years back (didn't get to speak but the dude sat next to me got to ask a question so I got some quality close-ups ).

[marcopaulo]

it would be interesting if the lib dems got in but i doubt they would have a clue what to do if they did win to be honest! the tories don't seem to care enough about the average joe it seems but i cant imagine either would do a worse job than labour have done

[CraccerC]

i enjoy it myself. i'm glad they've introduced the live debates. it's been quite well covered this year. one thing i will say though, i think it should be more like america in terms of voting for the man you see leading the campaign rather than for seats...obviously there's issues there though

 

i may get some flack for this, but it disappoints me to see how many people are voting lib dem. i don't think it's a surprise that they got an early rush of support but then once put under more scrutiny it's fallen off a bit, a lot of young voters who don't have a clue about politics and watched a short clip on the news, that's the type of vote i think they're picking up.

[marcopaulo]

better than ignorance leading to 'protest' votes for the BNP

[CraccerC]

im not THAT against the BNP, some of their manifesto makes sense, and by word it's not really racist, but the boundaries are just so vague and they can easily be taken for racism and they obviously appeal to racists. i must admit i voted for them once when i was younger and didn't care, but since then i've been more interested

[Lowensda]

im not THAT against the BNP, some of their manifesto makes sense, and by word it's not really racist, but the boundaries are just so vague and they can easily be taken for racism and they obviously appeal to racists. i must admit i voted for them once when i was younger and didn't care, but since then i've been more interested

 

Ditto that dude!!

[marcopaulo]

they're not for me at all..personally i think they are all racists and that is probably generalising but even if they are not completely racist they are still too close for my liking..

[holystove]

Because of the previous posts I just read up on the BNP and I can't believe how any sane person could have ever voted for them .. Protectionist, in favor of corporal punishment, homophobic ..., they're stuck in the world as it was in the 1950s .. Time to evolve... I haven't read their whole "manifesto" but if you think they have valid points on some issues, I'm guessing all you need to do is read up on that issue so you aren't susceptible to populist drivel and fear-mongering.

Edited May 5, 2010 by holystove

[MikeO]

The fact that they were forced to change their constitution to allow people other than "indiginous caucasians" to join only this year is enough for me.

 

Shami Chakrabarti, the director of Liberty, sums them up nicely I think...

 

"A shiny new constitution does not a democratic party make, it would be a pyrrhic victory, to say the least, if anyone thought that giving the BNP a facelift would make the slightest difference to a body with so much racism and hatred pumping through its veins."

[Ian C]

I'll be up as well and I'm not even a british citizen!

 

 

Hoping for a Labour/Lib Dem coalition.

 

Polls suggest a Conservative/DUP coalition though. That would be disastrous for Northern Ireland IMO just as if Sinn Féin managed to get into a coalition in the Republic. The peace process has been fragile enough, even with Labour's neutrality and persuasion, trying to convince the DUP to devolve powers to Northern Ireland. It'd be awful to think that the DUP could force Westminster support in arguments with Sinn Féin by way of their MP's.

 

My advice? Vote Lib Dem in Lib Dem/Tory marginals, vote Labour in Labour/Tory marginals and vote Lib Dem in safe seats.

 

That way you increase the chances of a Labour/Lib Dem coalition and increase the Lib Dem popular vote, thus lending weight to calls for proportional representation.

 

Can't believe you guys don't use PR like we do here. Don't listen to the Tories, coalitions work fine and ensure that everyone's vote counts equally (unlike the current system in which your vote basically doesn't matter in "safe seat consituencies")

[marcopaulo]

see i tend to pay more attention to the parties actually rather than how the voting works so i don't know the difference in what you mean there? if you could explain it or show us a link to explain i would very much like to see as i really haven't a clue on how the voting system works..and how it differs from others like the USA etc if it does

[MikeO]

see i tend to pay more attention to the parties actually rather than how the voting works so i don't know the difference in what you mean there? if you could explain it or show us a link to explain i would very much like to see as i really haven't a clue on how the voting system works..and how it differs from others like the USA etc if it does

Have a look at this....

 

http://www.tacticalvoting.org/

[Ian C]

Basically in Britain you have 1 MP per constituency. The candidate with the highest amount of votes gets elected.

 

Therefore if you have 5 candidates and 115 votes cast:

 

Candidate A: 25

Candidate B: 24

Candidate C: 23

Candidate D: 22

Candidate E: 21

 

In this case Candidate A is elected as they have the highest amount of votes.

 

But where this system falls down is if you think about it, 90 people did not vote for candidate A and yet he was elected.

 

This will then evolve to the point to where people will only vote for 2 parties. In America that has become the Democrats and Republicans. In Britain you have Labour and the Tories.

 

People do this because unless they can get a majority of people voting for a 3rd or a 4th or a 5th party then that party's candidate won't be elected and such their vote is meaningless. Look at the system now, in many marginal constituencies you have people who want to vote for the Lib Dems but they can't because if they don't vote for Labour then the Tories will get the seat.

 

In Ireland we have a system called Proportional Representation - Single Transferable Vote (PR or PR-STV for short )

 

In my constituency we elect 3 TD's to the Dáil (For TD read MP and for Dáil read parliament).

 

We do this by listing our candidates in our order of preference eg. a Labour candidate gets my no.1, a Lib Dem gets my no.2, a green gets my no.3 and I stop there. You can only list 1 candidate if you like, or as many as you'd like.

 

Now to be elected a certain number of votes are need, the quota. The quota is set once the total number of votes cast are known. (The formula is quota = (votes cast/seats to fill + 1) +1)

 

So on first count of the votes, everyone's first preferences are counted up. People are very rarely elected on first count. If nobody is elected then the candidate with the lowest first preferences is removed from the list and their votes are redistributed in order of their voters preferences. (eg. I selected a Labour candidate as my number 1 but he had the lowest number of votes and was eliminated, therefore my vote then gets transferred to the Lib Dem candidate who I selected as my no. 2). This elimination continues until someone reaches the quota and is elected. Once someone is elected their surplus votes are transferred to the other candidate's based on their voters' preferences. This process of elimination, transferring and election continues until all the seats are filled. If it gets to the point in which say there are 3 seats, with 2 candidates already elected and there are another 2 candidates who don't meet the quota, then the one with the lowest votes is eliminated and the other one is deemed elected.

 

Complicated system for the counters, but it works well and all you have to do on voting day is select the candidates in your order of preference.

 

A comparison between the 2005 UK GE and the 2007 Irish GE.

 

Party -- Popular Vote (First pref votes in case of Ireland) -- Seats as a% of total seats

--------------------------------------------------

UK

 

Labour -- 36.91% -- 55.11%

Tory -- 33.86% -- 30.65%

Lib Dem -- 23.09% -- 9.60%

UKIP -- 2.31% - 0%

SNP -- 1.59% -- 0.93%

 

Result: Labour Government formed.

 

Ireland

 

Fianna Fáil -- 41.56% -- 46.6%

Fine Gael -- 27.31% -- 30.9%

Labour -- 10.13% -- 12.1%

Greens -- 4.69% -- 3.6%

Sinn Féin -- 6.94% -- 2.4%

Progressive Democrats -- 2.73% -- 1.2%

Independent -- 5.15% -- 3.0%

 

Result: Fianna Fáil led coalition with PD (later dissolved into independents), Green and Independent support.

 

I've highlighted some of the anomalies in both systems...

 

In the British system you can clearly see the problems when Labour/Tory have similar %'s of the popular vote but Labour return way more candidates. You can also see that the Lib Dems and UKIP are both incredibly unrepresented in parliament.

 

Also I've highlighted Sinn Féin's seats in the Dáil. You might be wondering why they have less seats than the Greens but 2.5% more of the vote. The reason? No sane person transfers to Sinn Féin. Yes Sinn Féin clearly have their support, but the consensus among the electorate is that overall people have more support for the other parties.

 

So in essence, while encouraging smaller parties and increasing democratic representation, PR-STV also rejects fringe parties who are not supported by the mainstream. For example, the real winners in PR-STV in Britain would be the Liberal Democrats and UKIP. The BNP would not see much if any of a benefit, as even most conservative voters wouldn't transfer to them.

 

SHEESH that was long.

[marcopaulo]

gotcha! cheers mate very nicely done

[Ian C]

An important point to note is that the Liberal Democrats support the introduction of PR to Britain.

[Churinga2]

 

SHEESH that was long.

 

but very interesting, thanks

[marcopaulo]

hmm after reading that proper it does seem a much better system that you guys have!

[Ian C]

It's certainly the better than yours!

[marcopaulo]

all that typin has shagged your grammar!

[CraccerC]

i vote onservative. don't want a hung parliament. don't like libdems because they're europhiles. don't like labour because they'rethe problem.

 

in a nut shell.

[Ian C]

all that typin has shagged your grammar!

 

Shaddap you that's a bit of Gaeilge grammar seeping into my English!

 

 

I'd vote Lib Dem simply because they're the only party brave enough to admit that Britain doesn't need a nuclear deterrent anymore. Britain already has the resources to conventionally level any nation that would dare oppose it with nuclear weapons, bar Russia/China. And it's not like a couple of nukes in a submarine would put off Russia/China.

 

£100bn saved right there.

 

Though I admit I'm biased against the Conservatives as an Irishman

[CraccerC]

Shaddap you that's a bit of Gaeilge grammar seeping into my English!

 

 

I'd vote Lib Dem simply because they're the only party brave enough to admit that Britain doesn't need a nuclear deterrent anymore. Britain already has the resources to conventionally level any nation that would dare oppose it with nuclear weapons, bar Russia/China. And it's not like a couple of nukes in a submarine would put off Russia/China.

 

£100bn saved right there.

 

Though I admit I'm biased against the Conservatives as an Irishman

 

lib dems are too wishy washy for me...they came out with a manifesto packed with figures that are pretty meaningless really, they had a good start but with all the debates their policy has been battered a bit, overly optimistic and a fantasy really. i don't want the euro either, which they'd very much like to be apart of

[Churinga2]

The fact that they were forced to change their constitution to allow people other than "indiginous caucasians" to join only this year is enough for me.

 

Shami Chakrabarti, the director of Liberty, sums them up nicely I think...

 

 

i can understand why people would vote for a rather radical rightwing party, but the above for me makes it very clear that the party is just plain racist.

 

And corporal punishment? cor blimey :weird:

[Ian C]

lib dems are too wishy washy for me...they came out with a manifesto packed with figures that are pretty meaningless really, they had a good start but with all the debates their policy has been battered a bit, overly optimistic and a fantasy really. i don't want the euro either, which they'd very much like to be apart of

 

They've changed their tack on the euro in the last year I believe. They wouldn't join it in it's current state.

 

You think the Lib Dems are wishy washy? Have you seen the walking pr machine that is David Cameron?

 

Basic Lib Dem policy for this election:

 

• 
   
  
• Electoral Reform
  
• Spending and efficiency cuts
  
• Trident program stopped
  

 

Just looking at the parties' economic policie:

 

Tories main saving grace is the corporation tax cut, but then they go and balls it up by cutting benefits for the poor and giving inheritance tax breaks to the rich.

 

Labour is fair but they say they're protecting benefits for the lower and middle classes, front line services, military spending and few tax increases. Can't be done, or if it is done there will have to be serious measures next year to tackle the deficit.

 

Lib Dems cutting benefits for the more well-off middle classes to pay for huge tax break for the poor in the No Income Tax on First 10k. No inheritance tax cut. Trident stopped saving £100bn over 20 years.

 

To me the Lib Dems seem the fairest. But of course, I can't vote.

[Bailey]

They've changed their tack on the euro in the last year I believe. They wouldn't join it in it's current state.

 

You think the Lib Dems are wishy washy? Have you seen the walking pr machine that is David Cameron?

 

Basic Lib Dem policy for this election:

 

• 
   
  
• Electoral Reform
  
• Spending and efficiency cuts
  
• Trident program stopped
  

 

Just looking at the parties' economic policie:

 

Tories main saving grace is the corporation tax cut, but then they go and balls it up by cutting benefits for the poor and giving inheritance tax breaks to the rich.

 

Labour is fair but they say they're protecting benefits for the lower and middle classes, front line services, military spending and few tax increases. Can't be done, or if it is done there will have to be serious measures next year to tackle the deficit.

 

Lib Dems cutting benefits for the more well-off middle classes to pay for huge tax break for the poor in the No Income Tax on First 10k. No inheritance tax cut. Trident stopped saving £100bn over 20 years.

 

To me the Lib Dems seem the fairest. But of course, I can't vote.

 

I wouldnt trust the Lib Dems tbh. I agree that the 10k personal allowance is a good idea HOWEVER it just means they will tax you elsewhere and that will be the people who have worked hard for their money and not the lazy bastards who cant be arsed to get out of bed and go to work! Plus if you also look closely at the figures they say they will get an obscene amount from reducing tax avoidance which independent financial companies say is very unlikely!

 

Add this to the fact they want to remove jail sentences for less than 6 months, have an immigrant amnesty and worst of all join the Euro/Europe. It certainly isnt the party for me.

 

There is no way I could vote for Labour after the crap we have had to put up with in the last few years and I really dont trust Gordon Brown! The amount of spin that comes from Labour is shocking! I also detest the size of Government and how it seems everything is regulated.

 

I will be voting for the Tories but thats mainly because voting for anyone else is a waste. While I am slightly skeptical about how they will do it, I am 100% sure they could save shit loads in efficiency measures if they really wanted to. The amount of red tape is ridiculous! I also agree with them regards the NI increase, which just seems barmy when you are trying to increase enterprise and jobs. They also want to stop people who shouldnt be claiming the dole and reduce those on incapacity benefits.

 

They also want to improve discipline in schools (about time!) and reduce immigration (although I think there measures here are too weak and somewhat pointless) and their tax breaks should help those earning 20k ish more than the other parties.

 

If my vote really counted I would probably vote UKIP (although the financial side of their manifesto is a bit dodgy!) as I agree with most of their philosophies. The BNP are too strong for my liking, but I do think they have a couple of decent points in their manifesto but they went too far with their immigration policies IMO. Plus Nick Griffin looks like a twat...