duncanmckenzieismagic Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Why do mention Baines, try mentioning Hibbo, and it seems that even when I prove you wrong you say I couldn't be more worng for doing so, strange argument that one Dunc's. Don't you think that most great players at our club made early appearances, shit Rooney, Ball, Vaughan and Royle had a few games under their belts by the time they were 17 Colin Harvey was playing for us at the San Siro, or do you forget. For the umpteenth time, just in case you missed it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,if he is good enough then he is old enough or do you disagree? Ive lost the will to live with this argument as I cant see how you have proven me wrong. Your statement was that Moyes has stopped Garbutts career.I have pointed out several reasons to counter that argument so can you please explain to me how you have come to the conclusion that his career has stopped. Or is your entire argument that his career has stopped because he isnt in the first team/on the bench? What has Hibbo got to do with it??? The reason I mentioned Baines is because he is our current LB and you have been saying that you think Moyes should be playing Garbutt who is a LB I totally agree that if a player is good enough then he is old enough but he isnt good enough to to replace Baines and its as simple as that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Please dont give up the will to live yet Dunc. No you have not been proved wrong but i can see the point Jimmy is trying to make, and i'm of the same opinion. Moyes should know if Garbut is able to step in if Baines gets injured, he wont know if he doesnt play him. You might say he sees him every day in training or playing for the reserves, but its not the same as the prem, even Bily cant do it in the prem. Same should be happening with Gueye, he should be getting some time on the pitch to see if he is any good to replace Pienaar when he walks. Its no good waiting for the inevitable to happen and then find out you havent got a replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scouse Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Please dont give up the will to live yet Dunc. No you have not been proved wrong but i can see the point Jimmy is trying to make, and i'm of the same opinion. Moyes should know if Garbut is able to step in if Baines gets injured, he wont know if he doesnt play him. You might say he sees him every day in training or playing for the reserves, but its not the same as the prem, even Bily cant do it in the prem. Same should be happening with Gueye, he should be getting some time on the pitch to see if he is any good to replace Pienaar when he walks. Its no good waiting for the inevitable to happen and then find out you havent got a replacement. Bainess getting injured isnt inevitable tho is it Bill? i would only be giving Garbutt game time against lower teams in the cup, unless Bainess tells me he needs a rest i wouldnt be resting our best player this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Are you saying Baines is never going to be injured.? I think its inevitable that Pienaar will walk. I dont mean to drop them, just to give them some playing time from the bench to see if they can cut it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scouse Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Are you saying Baines is never going to be injured.? I think its inevitable that Pienaar will walk. I dont mean to drop them, just to give them some playing time from the bench to see if they can cut it. Hopefully , if he does as I have said before Neville will slot in at LB with Hibbert at RB.. I dont see Moyes bringing off Baines to be honest as he doesnt (as many managers dont) change the back line during matches. i agree on the Gueye front tho as he often changes the midfield (albeit with 5 mins to go).... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 if he does as I have said before Neville will slot in at LB with Hibbert at RB.. That line fills me with dread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 That line fills me with dread... At least that would finally show up our attacking structure for what it is. A pile of shite being held up by God* *God is also known as Leighton Baines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 At least that would finally show up our attacking structure for what it is. A pile of shite being held up by God* *God is also known as Leighton Baines god yells baines when he's havin it away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Let's not get carried away, he couldn't play Duffy ahead of hibbo at centre half, unless we get some easier fixtures in cups I don't see us getting a glimpse of gueye and garbutt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy the blue Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Ive lost the will to live with this argument as I cant see how you have proven me wrong. Your statement was that Moyes has stopped Garbutts career.I have pointed out several reasons to counter that argument so can you please explain to me how you have come to the conclusion that his career has stopped. Or is your entire argument that his career has stopped because he isnt in the first team/on the bench? What has Hibbo got to do with it??? The reason I mentioned Baines is because he is our current LB and you have been saying that you think Moyes should be playing Garbutt who is a LB I totally agree that if a player is good enough then he is old enough but he isnt good enough to to replace Baines and its as simple as that I notice that you have ignored the fact that Baines could get injured, the fact that Garbut hasn't even warmed the bench this season, the fact that youngsters are allowed to sit and twiddle their thumbs while Moyes picks the known culprits. What has it to do with Hibbo, who has been playing central defence with Duffy left to languish, its about building confidence, see the title of this thread for Gods sake. If Leighton does get injured, God forbid, are you happy that Garbut who could cover for him has not had the chance to kick a ball in the Prem, if you are its pointless carrying this discussion any further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 I notice that you have ignored the fact that Baines could get injured, the fact that Garbut hasn't even warmed the bench this season, the fact that youngsters are allowed to sit and twiddle their thumbs while Moyes picks the known culprits. What has it to do with Hibbo, who has been playing central defence with Duffy left to languish, its about building confidence, see the title of this thread for Gods sake. If Leighton does get injured, God forbid, are you happy that Garbut who could cover for him has not had the chance to kick a ball in the Prem, if you are its pointless carrying this discussion any further. apologies if i am missing your point about garbutt here but taking baines out of the side when he is our second best player at the moment just to give garbutt some minutes on the off chance baines gets injured is a bit daft if you ask me...garbutt gets his minutes when that injury comes and we will see if he is good enough then..sorry if i that's not what you meant you just seem to be saying that...the hibbo/duffy situation though i couldn't agree more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 apologies if i am missing your point about garbutt here but taking baines out of the side when he is our second best player at the moment just to give garbutt some minutes on the off chance baines gets injured is a bit daft if you ask me...garbutt gets his minutes when that injury comes and we will see if he is good enough then..sorry if i that's not what you meant you just seem to be saying that...the hibbo/duffy situation though i couldn't agree more No good trying to bolt the door after the horse has gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 still stand by the point baines should not be replaced just for the sake of givin the kid some game time..if he was a right back then yes as pip and hibbo aren't at their best right now..as for baines he is playing the best footy of his career and to take him out of the side just to give garbutt some game time as a precaution would be mental Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 I notice that you have ignored the fact that Baines could get injured, the fact that Garbut hasn't even warmed the bench this season, the fact that youngsters are allowed to sit and twiddle their thumbs while Moyes picks the known culprits. What has it to do with Hibbo, who has been playing central defence with Duffy left to languish, its about building confidence, see the title of this thread for Gods sake. If Leighton does get injured, God forbid, are you happy that Garbut who could cover for him has not had the chance to kick a ball in the Prem, if you are its pointless carrying this discussion any further. Hibbo or Duffy have nothing to do with it. I said you were wrong about Moyes stopping Garbutts career. As has been said if Baines gets injured we deal with it then , we dont weaken the side just to see what would happen without him. If we were stuck in mid table with nothing to play for ie no chance of going down or getting in Europe and the results were irrelevant then yes maybe give the lad a go. I have seen the title of the thread but as I said before my issue is with your ludicrous statement about Garbutts career not about playing youngsters in general but seeing as though you want me to address the confidence issue heres my slant on it. You are so concerned about the young lads confidence being destroyed by sitting on the bench so you must want to pull Baines out of the side at some point. What do you think it would do to his confidence if he keeps getting dragged off despite being one of the best players on the pitch just to give a 17 year old a game? If I was a teenager who was captain of his country, had just won a major tournament and been rewarded with a 3 year professional contract with a Premiership side then my confidence would be pretty high Heres another thought, what happens if we through Garbutt in against Spurs on Wednesday night and he gets ripped a new arsehole by Lennon would that be a big boost to his confidence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 No good trying to bolt the door after the horse has gone. No good getting rid of the horse just in case somone forgets to bolt the door either! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 No good getting rid of the horse just in case somone forgets to bolt the door either! Injuries will do that, then who do you play. It could be Hibbert or Neville but then you have a couple more players playing out of position. Who will play left wing when Pienaar goes.? I think there's a few peeps on here who live in a fantasy world, most think Pienaar is here forever, and Baines will never get an injury until he's 35, wake up and smell the coffee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 im not sayin baines will never get an injury and understand where you're comin from but you seriously want to pull baines out of the side just to give garbutt some game time? that just seems so stupid to me.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy the blue Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) Hibbo or Duffy have nothing to do with it. I said you were wrong about Moyes stopping Garbutts career. As has been said if Baines gets injured we deal with it then , we dont weaken the side just to see what would happen without him. If we were stuck in mid table with nothing to play for ie no chance of going down or getting in Europe and the results were irrelevant then yes maybe give the lad a go. I have seen the title of the thread but as I said before my issue is with your ludicrous statement about Garbutts career not about playing youngsters in general but seeing as though you want me to address the confidence issue heres my slant on it. You are so concerned about the young lads confidence being destroyed by sitting on the bench so you must want to pull Baines out of the side at some point. What do you think it would do to his confidence if he keeps getting dragged off despite being one of the best players on the pitch just to give a 17 year old a game? If I was a teenager who was captain of his country, had just won a major tournament and been rewarded with a 3 year professional contract with a Premiership side then my confidence would be pretty high Heres another thought, what happens if we through Garbutt in against Spurs on Wednesday night and he gets ripped a new arsehole by Lennon would that be a big boost to his confidence? Show me where I said Garbut should be in from the start at any point, I am talking quite clearly, though your are unable to pick up simple English, that these lads should be given time on the park at sometime in a match..................................why are you finding this to be a difficult concept to grasp or are you so struck with Moyes that you can't see logic any more. It seems to me that you want Baines and anyone else playing well to burn out, just what Moyes is doing at present. By the way if you have actually played the game confidence comes on the park playing with your piers, contracts, like Arteta's, can send players to seed early as we have witnessed this season Duffy, a young player who is looking to progress his career has to be something to do with a thread on building confidence why you suggest otherwisde is plainly stupid Edited January 4, 2011 by Jimmy the blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 I agree with what Jimmy is saying but because of our performances this season, we havent really been in a comfortable position to to bring a youngster off the bench to 'blood'him in. Regardless though if he isnt even on the bench there is no way we can do this. If (big if) we are 10 up a spurs tomorrow with 30mins left he wont be able to bring on a youngster to give him the experience because we will have Hibbert covering for LB, CB and RB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 You're optimistic tonight Bailey - 10 up!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 You're optimistic tonight Bailey - 10 up!!!! Thats what a few jars down the local does! You will be kicking yourself for not putting it on down the bookies when a last minute Arteta corner actually beats the first man, which falls to Garbutt (deputising for the injured baines) who nods it back in to the path of Duffy to lash home for our tenth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Thats what a few jars down the local does! You will be kicking yourself for not putting it on down the bookies when a last minute Arteta corner actually beats the first man, which falls to Garbutt (deputising for the injured baines) who nods it back in to the path of Duffy to lash home for our tenth! You forgot to mention that Hibbert will have scored the other 9, with 9 different parts of his body . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 You forgot to mention that Hibbert will have scored the other 9, with 9 different parts of his body . See now your just taking the piss... Neville's gunna skin all 10 outfield players with his cheeky Ronaldo-esque step overs before pinging a 30 yarder into the top right of the net! Hibbo only gets 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Show me where I said Garbut should be in from the start at any point, I am talking quite clearly, though your are unable to pick up simple English, that these lads should be given time on the park at sometime in a match..................................why are you finding this to be a difficult concept to grasp or are you so struck with Moyes that you can't see logic any more. It seems to me that you want Baines and anyone else playing well to burn out, just what Moyes is doing at present. By the way if you have actually played the game confidence comes on the park playing with your piers, contracts, like Arteta's, can send players to seed early as we have witnessed this season Duffy, a young player who is looking to progress his career has to be something to do with a thread on building confidence why you suggest otherwisde is plainly stupid Now now soft lad I said what would it do to Baines' confidence if he keeps getting dragged off to give a 17 year old a game, which would imply him being substituted would it not? You are obviously not going to answer my question as to how exactly you feel Moyes has stopped Garbutts career so we will just have to agree to disagree because Im bored of trying to get any sense out of you now. For your information I have played the game to a pretty decent standard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy the blue Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Now now soft lad I said what would it do to Baines' confidence if he keeps getting dragged off to give a 17 year old a game, which would imply him being substituted would it not? You are obviously not going to answer my question as to how exactly you feel Moyes has stopped Garbutts career so we will just have to agree to disagree because Im bored of trying to get any sense out of you now. For your information I have played the game to a pretty decent standard I will leave it to the board to decide who is the soft lad here, read the threasd lazy arse and see how many times your question, which is out of context, has been answered. I no longer have any confidence in you Duncs, enough said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 I think this is rubbish to be honest. Cahill DOES supplement the team, wherever he plays he puts in a shift and contributes to the team. Attacking wise we're basically a two man team this season, Baines and Cahill. I think we can all see that Cahill's all round game is slightly limited, but as an attacking midfielder in a 451 he's up there with the best in the country and he is world class in that position. I wouldn't play him in a 442, but then again apart from possibly Fellaini I wouldn't play any of our midfielders in a 442. I could understand your argument in previous seasons but this year Cahill has been sensational and everyone else abysmal, even when he played up front our midfield was still inept without him. I think Everton may be over reliant on Cahill but that's through no fault of his own, it's purely due to the fact that everyone else is playing rubbish and the fact that Moyes' tactical acumen is nil. Cahill is possibly the single biggest reason we have finished in such good league positions under Moyes, our squad is suited to a 451 and that's where Cahill (and usually the rest of the team) thrives. No one will ever be able to question Tim in terms of commitment to the team, but to get the best out of him the team needs to play in a tired formation that appears to have been sussed by fellow managers. The balance I was referring to was there for all to see tonight. Two strikers pushing onto the centre halves, we weren't trying to walk the ball in, we had our tactics set out and went at them. None of the dithering Dave mess arounds when things don't work out. Was pleased to see he only went 4-5-1 when it was injury time and that the Yak was the player with the job of doing the lone striker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue 250 Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 I will leave it to the board to decide who is the soft lad here, read the threasd lazy arse and see how many times your question, which is out of context, has been answered. I no longer have any confidence in you Duncs, enough said. Watch him Duncs!.....this bloke is dangerous! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlmc25 Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 No one will ever be able to question Tim in terms of commitment to the team, but to get the best out of him the team needs to play in a tired formation that appears to have been sussed by fellow managers. The balance I was referring to was there for all to see tonight. Two strikers pushing onto the centre halves, we weren't trying to walk the ball in, we had our tactics set out and went at them. None of the dithering Dave mess arounds when things don't work out. Was pleased to see he only went 4-5-1 when it was injury time and that the Yak was the player with the job of doing the lone striker. We've played 451 for years, opposition managers would surely have sussed it out long before now? It's just we had such a good system for the players we have that they couldn't stop it. It wasn't the system that was wrong (I mean 442 is hardly original is it?) it was how our players were performing in that system. There was a lack of effort, of desire to score goals and take risks which had nothing to do with the system. At times during the last couple of seasons we have had serious injury problems and put out really dodgy teams, yet we won due to hard work and desire (and the 451), if we had that same mentality with the teams Moyes has put out this season, we would be in the top 2 or 3. I was calling for 442 last night as something did need to change but the fact is last night proved nothing except that if our players actually try their best and try and score goals, they invariably win. Cahill played in arguably our best result this season (2 1 away at City) in which he scored a goal and set up the other, so to say last night proved we are better without him is nonsense. Cahill could play up front or in midfield, it's not as if many of our players (ie Arteta, Rodwell, Pienaar, Beckford, Saha, Yakubu) are actually doing anything on the pitch is it? I'm just unbelievably frustrated as I think the teams in the league this year are poor, Man Utd are top and they don't even look particularly good, the top 4 and even the title were there for the taking if our players (or Moyes) had just stepped up and played like we all know they could. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted January 7, 2011 Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 We've played 451 for years, opposition managers would surely have sussed it out long before now? It's just we had such a good system for the players we have that they couldn't stop it. It wasn't the system that was wrong (I mean 442 is hardly original is it?) it was how our players were performing in that system. There was a lack of effort, of desire to score goals and take risks which had nothing to do with the system. At times during the last couple of seasons we have had serious injury problems and put out really dodgy teams, yet we won due to hard work and desire (and the 451), if we had that same mentality with the teams Moyes has put out this season, we would be in the top 2 or 3. I was calling for 442 last night as something did need to change but the fact is last night proved nothing except that if our players actually try their best and try and score goals, they invariably win. Cahill played in arguably our best result this season (2 1 away at City) in which he scored a goal and set up the other, so to say last night proved we are better without him is nonsense. Cahill could play up front or in midfield, it's not as if many of our players (ie Arteta, Rodwell, Pienaar, Beckford, Saha, Yakubu) are actually doing anything on the pitch is it? I'm just unbelievably frustrated as I think the teams in the league this year are poor, Man Utd are top and they don't even look particularly good, the top 4 and even the title were there for the taking if our players (or Moyes) had just stepped up and played like we all know they could. To be honest I think your pretty much spot on. Against Spurs the players went out to win and play positively which we have only done for maybe one or two other games this season. What I would say about the Cahill point is that I think it helped that Saha was playing with an out and out striker because he made the moves of a striker. He tried running in behind and he dragged defenders everywhere which gave Saha more space. Normally Cahill plays in this space and while Cahill will hurt you inside the box, outside of it he isnt really a threat, whereas can be. Cahill brings a different skill set but he looks to hold the ball up more or wait for the other striker to lay it off. Beckford was looking to get in behind, stretch the defence and he would run past the striker as opposed to waiting for the ball back. The problem is when Cahill plays with Saha, neither look to break into space behind the back four and it makes it much more comfortable to defend against, especially as they arent the paciest anymore so the defence can push higher up the pitch. I think Beckford helped but as you say even with Cahill, had we gone out with that spirit and determination more often this season we could easily be in the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted January 7, 2011 Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) To be honest I think your pretty much spot on. Against Spurs the players went out to win and play positively which we have only done for maybe one or two other games this season. What I would say about the Cahill point is that I think it helped that Saha was playing with an out and out striker because he made the moves of a striker. He tried running in behind and he dragged defenders everywhere which gave Saha more space. Normally Cahill plays in this space and while Cahill will hurt you inside the box, outside of it he isnt really a threat, whereas can be. Cahill brings a different skill set but he looks to hold the ball up more or wait for the other striker to lay it off. Beckford was looking to get in behind, stretch the defence and he would run past the striker as opposed to waiting for the ball back. The problem is when Cahill plays with Saha, neither look to break into space behind the back four and it makes it much more comfortable to defend against, especially as they arent the paciest anymore so the defence can push higher up the pitch. I think Beckford helped but as you say even with Cahill, had we gone out with that spirit and determination more often this season we could easily be in the mix. Agree with pretty much all of that however I would take issue with the bit about us only playing positively only once or twice, thought that was a extremely harsh Edited January 7, 2011 by duncanmckenzieismagic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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