Are our eyes too big for our bellies?

[MikeO]

No guarantees of that whatsoever.

That's why I said "potentially." It's not a risk free option.

 

But I think we're likely to become Leeds Mk2 if we carry on as we are.

[Willo]

Its also about cutting the wage bill and bringing some financial stability to the club to make it more take over friendly. I think we would see a take over bid within a year if we manager to show some good figurer at the end of the season.

 

 

My worry is that even by selling to reduce the wage bill and debt in the short term within a year with all this interest we're paying on loans and mortgages we are gonna be back in shit loads more debt .

 

As has been said before we're no longer a sell to buy club , we're taking more loans / mortgages out just to keep the club running for another year . DM has a net spend ( i believe to be ) in the region of about 2 million since he's been in charge , in that time we've still been getting excellent gates of 35 thousand + but the club is still fuckin haemoraging money left right and centre .

 

I just think , yeh we could sell some of our top players for top dollar and flirt with relegation but ultimately with this bunch of clowns on the board we'd probably still be in the same position with debt this time next year only with a much worse squad .

 

I really cant see any light at the end of tunnel and it fuckin scares me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Steve_E]

There is no other option than selling players imo as we've got a 5m a year overdraft so we're adding debt every year. We have got to decrease the wage bill. Plus, to be honest, with some players, the magic has just worn off. We need to freshen up the squad, get in some new faces. A fresh start with a new squad is what we need really. Yobo and Yakubu have to go. Arteta, Jagielka, Bilyaletdinov are up for sale. If a an offer of over £20m comes in for Fellaini I'd sell as well. They should all be sold in the next year and a half really. I guess they should get us about 50 mil. We should use that to add to the squad with younger players. About 5 mil for a centre back, 8 mil for a left winger, 8 mil for a right winger, 8 mil for a striker. That's enough to get good players in Scandinavia, Holland, France... [i'd get Zanka Jorgensen: 21 year old centre back, Danish international and has shown he can perform on Champions League level. He's been linked with Arsenal and PSV among others this summer. PSV couldn't come up with the £4.5m Copenhagen wanted. Bryan Ruiz is a 26 year old Costa Rican international. Best player in the Dutch league. He has got 41 goals in 94 games as a right winger for Twente. Redknapp is monitoring him closely and Jol has made an offer. Fulham's offer (4.3m) was laughed at by Twente, but I guess you'd get him for £8.5m. I like Werder Bremen's Marko Arnautovic: 22 year old Austrian international, left winger, though capable of playing on the right or as a striker as well. He's a bit of an enfant terrible and Bremen have got a lot of options so I think you'd get him for 8m as well. He's worth 6.5m according to transfermarkt.co.uk. I don't really know a good striker for that kind of money, but I'm no scout. I'm sure you can find one in the Ligue 1. I think the players I've put forward would all add (Zanka) or even improve (Arnautovic, Ruiz) our squad and we'd be able to clear a lot of debt and wages. We'll probably even make a profit each year so we don't have to borrow any more just to keep the club operating.]

Edited August 22, 2011 by Steve_E

[HalewoodBlue]

That's why I said "potentially." It's not a risk free option.

 

But I think we're likely to become Leeds Mk2 if we carry on as we are.

 

Dont agree on that at all, Sell 1 top star and it would get the banks off our backs for a bit. This fire sale talk is just silly and wont help the team at all

[marcus jones]

If the net debt is not tackled then under this club will go, I would rather have this team scratching around at the bottom than risk the very existence of it. It is not doom and gloom just being realistic. If I did my finances like the clowns in charge I would be homeless, no if's or buts homeless. No fire sale, just sell every transfer window a big name with the proceeds going to the creditors. This club will go to the wall in two years if this goes on. Don't say we were not warned, because we had a chance to be debt free some years ago. There will be some very big name casualties in the not to distant future. The premier league and sky made us some serious amount of cash, shame we didn't keep some. We don't have the right to play top flight, we earn it.

[MikeO]

 

Dont agree on that at all, Sell 1 top star and it would get the banks off our backs for a bit. This fire sale talk is just silly and wont help the team at all

I missed a word in my post....should have been...

 

But I think we're more likely to become Leeds Mk2 if we carry on as we are.

 

I don't really believe we'll end up like Leeds because one way or another things will work out.

[StevO]

Steve-E. Not sure where your getting this £5m a year over draft from. It's a £25m overdraft and it's at it's limit.

[StevO]

 

But I think we're more likely to become Leeds Mk2 if we carry on as we are.

 

I don't really believe we'll end up like Leeds because one way or another things will work out.

I agree to a point mike. Adding loan after loan each year is a bottomless pit, the costs still rise every year and you are chasing your tail until people don't get paid and then your out of business.

 

Or we could do the fire sale, pay off as much debt and overdraft as possible, maybe get relegated and then the remaining payments become difficult due to loss of income from the premier league.

 

Or we could sell one big player £15m+ and not bring any other players in. Keep the wolf at the door for another 12 months in the hope that the academy brings us another starlet next year, thou statistically only one player from our under 18 league winning team will make it.

[Steve_E]

Steve-E. Not sure where your getting this £5m a year over draft from. It's a £25m overdraft and it's at it's limit.

 

I'm sorry. I guess I'm getting all the economical terms in English mixed up. I (think I) meant that we have a £5 mil deficit each year. (80m-85m) But my point still stands.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Steve_E

[Avinalaff]

There are different types of views amongst our fans, and that is to be expected.

 

To some, this mini crisis is just another chapter in the ongoing story of Everton Football Club, and those that have looked at the full picture are able to come to terms with a possible 'stepping backwards in order to move forwards' scenario.

 

To others, were 'this close' to success, and we should keep pushing, and spending, in pursuit of it.

 

Some are prepared to rip it up and start again, so to speak, and others feel that as long as we can manage debt, then debt is ok, so let's just pay a 'little' bit back, and keep going.

 

You can all add your own versions of events, and possible solutions, but speaking only for myself, here is my own point of view:

 

I've seen success, I've seen trophies, I've seen Europe, and I've seen players, managers, chairmen, and even fans come and go.

 

Success doesn't last long.

 

We last won the league in 1986-7 season finishing with 86 points from our 42 games.

 

The very next year, we finished 20 points behind league winners Liverpool with only 70 points, and the next year finished in 8th place. Then we finished in 6th, 9th, 12th, 13th, 17th, 15th, 6th, 15th, 17th.

 

So within 2 years of being the best team in English football, we had gone back to mediocrity.

 

Within 10 years of being the best team in English football, we had escaped relegation twice.

 

You could argue that our ban on Europe prevented us from having the funds to keep things going, but what happened happened.

 

Heck, you can argue that World War 2 stopped us in our tracks too having won the title in 1939 only to resume back to mediocrity after the war and eventual relegation for 3 seasons. We had to wait until the 60's until we saw success again, with the money bags board at the time, with periods of mediocrity inbetween the 63 and 70 titles.

 

So we had the title in 70, but the year after finished 14th again. Then 15th, then 17th .... see a pattern?

 

Then we were decent again in the late 70's, but were fighting relegation again at the turn of the decade.

 

Fans that were lucky enough to have watched a successful Everton team in the 80's, then had to endure torrid times, with some of the worst football we could imagine once again.

 

25 years on, we still haven't won the league, but the last 10 years have been much more entertaining, and bearable to endure.

 

We've regained a respectful status within the game, and have enjoyed Europe once again. I can't remember having better players in the side for some time, as Moyes has brought to the club, and our football has been superb at times.

 

To do this, has cost money though, and we now find the club up against it. We have players not pulling their weight, and taking enormous sums of money from our club in return.

 

If we were to carry on spending, I think we would certainly have risked becoming extinct, and bankrupt, so in a way, it's probably a good job the board and banks haven't gone mad.

 

Let's get the players that are not necessary off our books, and keep the ones that are.

 

If we have to suffer mid table for a while, so be it. We've been doing it since the war, so not a problem - let's get on with it.

 

Best to do it now, while we have Moyes, than to do it when he has gone. Moyes is the best at what he does. He doesn't necessarily suit managing a Man Utd, or a Barcelona, though good luck to the guy if he did.

 

What he is damn good at, is keeping our team in the Premiership, on a pittance, and for that, I think he is probably the best manager this club has ever had, in it's entire history, without disrespecting others, and their achievements.

 

We need him now more than we've ever needed him, because if he were to leave, we really would be up against it.

 

Let him rebuild. Let 'him' decide who goes and who stays.

 

We don't have the money other clubs have, but we have the best manager, the best team spirit, and the best fans, and our history is pretty good too.

 

The Prem isn't just about winning it, but also about being here to enjoy playing against all the other Prem teams.

 

Ask any fan in the next division down if they would swap us.

[Hafnia]

In fairness that post is all about "it's the taking part that counts"

 

Success breeds success, how many times have united won the league since the premiership started 20 years ago? 12. One of only 4 teams to do so. The reality is we missed the boat big time, from being one of the big 5 to founder the super league (which was main intention of the Sky deal) - we are now back down with the likes of fulham, sunderland, stoke in terms of coverage. We are an after thought and despite you feeling that it's ok to just be a member of the prem and have some patronising praise, many of us want to be feared again.

[Avinalaff]

 

In fairness that post is all about "it's the taking part that counts"

 

Success breeds success, how many times have united won the league since the premiership started 20 years ago? 12. One of only 4 teams to do so. The reality is we missed the boat big time, from being one of the big 5 to founder the super league (which was main intention of the Sky deal) - we are now back down with the likes of fulham, sunderland, stoke in terms of coverage. We are an after thought and despite you feeling that it's ok to just be a member of the prem and have some patronising praise, many of us want to be feared again.

 

Hania, I think as fans we need to stop worrying what each other think, and enjoy the Prem while we are still in it. I can't keep explaining my own points of view, nor should I have to, as they are irrelevant to the bigger picture, other than having a chat on the forum, with other fans. We 'clearly' have different opinions on 'some' things, but I'm not going to challenge those of others thinking it will make a difference.

 

For me, I come here only to discuss, and not to find 'The answer' if that makes any sense. Feel free to want what 'you' want, but please don't expect everyone to think how you think, as it won't happen.

 

If you want to be 'feared' again, perhaps go buy a Halloween mask, and knock on a few doors, before shouting "BOO!!" at the occupant when they answer.

 

Me? I want the club to still be around for generations to come, and couldn't care if we are feared or not, as long as the club exists.

[Bailey]

Me? I want the club to still be around for generations to come, and couldn't care if we are feared or not, as long as the club exists.

 

I understand what your saying on this and I agree with you for the most part. But I would add that it is still possible to compete at the level we are currently challenging at if we moved some people on.

 

An example of this would be if you looked at the Man Utd team that put the sword to Spurs. They didnt really have too many big names in that team bar Rooney and Nani and it has been a vast overhaul from last season with a lot of fresh talent coming into the starting line-up. Yes the likes of Young, Jones, and Smalling all came in on big transfers but they would have been less than half the price the year before (in the CB's cases) and Young was 5-6mil(?) when he signed for Villa. Man Utd now have the money to be able to afford to wait and see with transfers, but I dont doubt that they were well on Fergies radar long before they broke through.

 

IMO there is no reason we cant do the same but on an obviously smaller scale. We could break down our squad in the following way for players we have bought cheap and brought through or the ones waiting in the wings:

 

GK - ?

RB - Coleman

CB - Duffy, Mustafi, Dier and technically Jags

LB - Baines, Garbutt

CM- Fellaini, Rodwell, Barkley, Baxter?

Wing - Gueye (obvious weak area)

ST - Vellios, Silva and technically Beckford

 

That gives us a pretty decent starting point, but add in the likes of Hibbert, Neville, Osman, Distin, Howard (and some others) that dont have any real resale value then I dont think we would perform any worse than we have done for large parts of the last 12 months.

 

Im not saying that we should go out tomorrow with this line-up, but if you can gradually sell a couple of players here and there (say we sold Yobo, Yakubu & Jags this window for £20mil) and brought in £5mil worth of players to play out wide, and maybe a loan, then I think we would be in a stronger position on and off the field. If we could do that again in January maybe with Arteta and Bily (£15-20mil) and reinvested £5-10mil of that into bringing in players then again, I dont think we would fair too badly on the field, but importantly we would be in a much stronger financial position, especially with regards to the wage bill.

 

Obviously that is a very simplified example of how I feel we should go BUT looking at the situation we are in then I think its the only way we can go.

[Avinalaff]

 

I understand what your saying on this and I agree with you for the most part. But I would add that it is still possible to compete at the level we are currently challenging at if we moved some people on.

 

An example of this would be if you looked at the Man Utd team that put the sword to Spurs. They didnt really have too many big names in that team bar Rooney and Nani and it has been a vast overhaul from last season with a lot of fresh talent coming into the starting line-up. Yes the likes of Young, Jones, and Smalling all came in on big transfers but they would have been less than half the price the year before (in the CB's cases) and Young was 5-6mil(?) when he signed for Villa. Man Utd now have the money to be able to afford to wait and see with transfers, but I dont doubt that they were well on Fergies radar long before they broke through.

 

IMO there is no reason we cant do the same but on an obviously smaller scale. We could break down our squad in the following way for players we have bought cheap and brought through or the ones waiting in the wings:

 

GK - ?

RB - Coleman

CB - Duffy, Mustafi, Dier and technically Jags

LB - Baines, Garbutt

CM- Fellaini, Rodwell, Barkley, Baxter?

Wing - Gueye (obvious weak area)

ST - Vellios, Silva and technically Beckford

 

That gives us a pretty decent starting point, but add in the likes of Hibbert, Neville, Osman, Distin, Howard (and some others) that dont have any real resale value then I dont think we would perform any worse than we have done for large parts of the last 12 months.

 

Im not saying that we should go out tomorrow with this line-up, but if you can gradually sell a couple of players here and there (say we sold Yobo, Yakubu & Jags this window for £20mil) and brought in £5mil worth of players to play out wide, and maybe a loan, then I think we would be in a stronger position on and off the field. If we could do that again in January maybe with Arteta and Bily (£15-20mil) and reinvested £5-10mil of that into bringing in players then again, I dont think we would fair too badly on the field, but importantly we would be in a much stronger financial position, especially with regards to the wage bill.

 

Obviously that is a very simplified example of how I feel we should go BUT looking at the situation we are in then I think its the only way we can go.

 

I think there are a lot more fans looking out for the best interests of the club than there are screaming out for trophies.

 

One thing about our fan base is we've always been credited with knowledge of football etc, but we've always been credited with having realistic and humble views too.

 

I think if we ran a poll that had 2 very clear alternative answers, the greater result would always be in favour of what is best for the clubs future over 'we want trophies'.

 

That's because our fan base didn't join because we were the 'trendy' club to follow for fans who weren't interested in football unless asked who we supported, but because we weren't.

 

If anything, I now sense a movement towards supporting the board more than supporting the groups who have tried to bring it down.

[StevO]

Avinalaugh- from reading your posts I think that you think the fans who are upset at the moment are wanting the board to keep borrowing and keep spending.

I think it's the complete opposite, from what I can see people are asking the board why we have got in this situation and how are we Gunna get out of it.

Not to keep spending!

 

I'm a full supporter of the movement to question

what's happening at the club. not because I want then to go and buy aguero and give him £200k a week.

I want to know why we have got in this situation

and put the club at risk, and why we are still doing it.

If we need to sell a player to stay afloat then just do it, but come and tell us why and im pretty

sure most would be fine with it.

 

And I'm not sure about your comment that the groups are trying to bring the board down as you put it.

To be honest from what your writing it looks to me like you've not looked into BU at all and don't actually know what they stand for.

Edited August 23, 2011 by StevO

[Avinalaff]

Avinalaugh- from reading your posts I think that you think the fans who are upset at the moment are wanting the board to keep borrowing and keep spending.

I think it's the complete opposite, from what I can see people are asking the board why we have got in this situation and how are we Gunna get out of it.

Not to keep spending!

 

I'm a full supporter of the movement to question

what's happening at the club. not because I want then to go and buy aguero and give him £200k a week.

I want to know why we have got in this situation

and put the club at risk, and why we are still doing it.

If we need to sell a player to stay afloat then just do it, but come and tell us why and im pretty

sure most would be fine with it.

 

And I'm not sure about your comment that the groups are trying to bring the board down as you put it.

To be honest from what your writing it looks to me like you've not looked into BU at all and don't actually know what they stand for.

 

You could be right.

 

My outlook so far has been that many fans want big name players at the club, and want us winning things again, and because our present board can't give them that, then they want them gone, because Everton, by tradition, should be at the top.

 

I can elaborate to include side agendas, but that would be my main impression I get from the moaning and groaning that has sprung from the forums in recent years.

[Hafnia]

 

You could be right.

 

My outlook so far has been that many fans want big name players at the club, and want us winning things again, and because our present board can't give them that, then they want them gone, because Everton, by tradition, should be at the top.

 

I can elaborate to include side agendas, but that would be my main impression I get from the moaning and groaning that has sprung from the forums in recent years.

 

 

We don't want big names, the problem is we aren't self sufficient enough to keep cheaply acquired ones, we are a club that ultimately needs to sell players to survive.

 

The board despite having a manager operating on one of the lowest budgets with on average approx the 6th highest match day attendances have seen the club go into more and more debt - where is the £24m going!!!

 

Moaning and groaning? The fans have been patient with the 11 for sale sign, the rooney sale, failed ground move, fighting the joke that was Kirby and now the realisation that Kenwright has the narcisism of a deranged, tone deaf X Factor contestant who just can not see what others can. That they ain't good enough.

[StevO]

You could be right.

 

My outlook so far has been that many fans want big name players at the club, and want us winning things again, and because our present

board can't give them that, then they want them gone, because Everton, by tradition, should be at the top.

 

I can elaborate to include side agendas, but that would be my main impression I get from the

moaning and groaning that has sprung from the forums in recent years.

 

That hasn't been the issue at all mate.

We want stability, the same as you! I don't think you realise it but you stand for most of the same things as the BU.

Have a look at their website and KEIOC and I think you will agree.

 

Please please go an have a look.

[Avinalaff]

That hasn't been the issue at all mate.

We want stability, the same as you! I don't think you realise it but you stand for most of the same things as the BU.

Have a look at their website and KEIOC and I think you will agree.

 

Please please go an have a look.

 

I'll make a point of taking a look.

[Peter H]

 

IMO there is no reason we cant do the same but on an obviously smaller scale. We could break down our squad in the following way for players we have bought cheap and brought through or the ones waiting in the wings:

 

GK - ?

RB - Coleman

CB - Duffy, Mustafi, Dier and technically Jags

LB - Baines, Garbutt

CM- Fellaini, Rodwell, Barkley, Baxter?

Wing - Gueye (obvious weak area)

ST - Vellios, Silva and technically Beckford

 

 

Fellaini cost us £15m, worth every penny in my books but you cant call him cheap

[StevO]

Felli hasnt cost £15m yet, thats the figure banded about by the club. its "upto" £15m, depending on clauses set out in the transfer. Realistically was probably half of that so far.

[Hafnia]

Felli has been bought on the drip. Will probably cost £15m by the time we sell him. Not sure if there is a sell on clause too.

[Steve_E]

Felli hasnt cost £15m yet, thats the figure banded about by the club. its "upto" £15m, depending on clauses set out in the transfer. Realistically was probably half of that so far.

 

Actually, Fellaini was incredibly expensive. Standard Liege has been sold this year and a lot of information has become apparent in the press. Standard have so far received €21.756.000 from Everton. That's about £19 mil by today's exchange rate.

http://www.dhnet.be/sports/standard/article/358937/les-dix-chiffres-secrets-du-standard.html

[StevO]

how far has the exchange rate moved since we brought him in?

[Steve_E]

http://www.evertonfc.com/news/archive/fellaini-becomes-record-signing.html

 

Club officials confirmed the deal in the early hours of Tuesday morning and Fellaini joins the Blues for an initial fee of 18.5 million euros (£15 million) that will rise throughout the deal, putting pen to paper on a five year deal at Goodison Park.

 

So £15mil already accounted for €18.5m at the time. That means Everton have since payed another 3.256.000 euros. I don't know how it works though? Do they use the exchange rate that was in place at the time the deal was signed? Or do they use the rate at the moment of payment?

[StevO]

that would depend on the terms of the contract, if it is in stirling to euro.

[pete0]

<a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.evertonfc.com/news/archive/fellaini-becomes-record-signing.html" rel="nofollow external" title="External link">http://www.evertonfc...rd-signing.html</a>

So £15mil already accounted for €18.5m at the time. That means Everton have since payed another 3.256.000 euros. I don't know how it works though? Do they use the exchange rate that was in place at the time the deal was signed? Or do they use the rate at the moment of payment?

Possibly Everton could have hedged the money to reduce the risk or they might of agreed a fixed exchange rate. Many possibilities, doubt we have paid any more than an extra £250,000. If we had the club would have come out to use it as an excuse for were all the money has gone.

Edited August 24, 2011 by pete0

[Bailey]

 

Fellaini cost us £15m, worth every penny in my books but you cant call him cheap

 

Haha yeh good point, although compared to £20mil for Henderson it looks like a drop in the ocean!

[StevO]

from the official site Fellaini has emerged as an integral part of the Blues midfield since signing from Standard Liege in a Club record transfer worth more than £12m on transfer deadline day in 2008.

 

Price has gone down a bit to them.