The Blue Union respond

[Avinalaff]

Av they can only make their decisions on the facts that have been presented to them as fans over the years which lets face it, is not good, its all false promises, lies, spin and general bullshit from Bill and whoever is CE at the time or idiots like Ross, yes they don't know intimate details, but what has been presented to them so far and to the rest of us over the last 10 years, does not make good reading for any fan.

 

There lies the problem Pris.

 

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, as some might say.

 

An example might be where a customer complains about the price of a pie, or a ticket, or a fare, yet does so without knowledge of all the operating costs, which won't be disclosed to them, as it's not their business, and is the private matter of the businessman. Should he have to explain his private affairs in order to appease the customer, or should the customer go shop elsewhere if they're unhappy?

 

It's a vicious circle, but one that exists in many factors at our club, from back room staff decisions to board room affairs.

 

The Blue Union want Kenwright to sell the club.

 

Why?

 

So they can be owned by billionaires and win trophies. Is that not a little self centred and over expectant? Telling a business man to sell his business to another?

 

If I was Kenwright I'd tell them to go support another club if they're not happy. It's time fans realised that Everton is a business. Fans do not have a say.

[Hafnia]

 

There lies the problem Pris.

 

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, as some might say.

 

An example might be where a customer complains about the price of a pie, or a ticket, or a fare, yet does so without knowledge of all the operating costs, which won't be disclosed to them, as it's not their business, and is the private matter of the businessman. Should he have to explain his private affairs in order to appease the customer, or should the customer go shop elsewhere if they're unhappy?

 

It's a vicious circle, but one that exists in many factors at our club, from back room staff decisions to board room affairs.

 

The Blue Union want Kenwright to sell the club.

 

Why?

 

So they can be owned by billionaires and win trophies. Is that not a little self centred and over expectant? Telling a business man to sell his business to another?

 

If I was Kenwright I'd tell them to go support another club if they're not happy. It's time fans realised that Everton is a business. Fans do not have a say.

 

Av, come on?! what is going on with you today??? Are you saying that fans who have followed this club and will continue to do so do not have a right to voice their concerns at a regime that has seen us edge towards adminsitration despite asset stripping, increased debt, net transfer spends of zilch?

 

Why do people keep coming out with the nonsense that we want a billionaire sugar daddy lie abramovich or the sheikh? I don't. I want owners with a vision, who can give us the financial platform and infrastructure to grow "organically" (how's about that for business minded?)

 

Kenwright and co are ill equipped to run a championship club.

[FanchesterCity]

I do agree that fans 'probably' want a rich guy to come in and spend lavishly (which is unrealistic).

 

I disagree that a fan can't question the price of a pie. If he knows he can buy a product for 2 quid at one place, and it's 4 quid somewhere else, he knows it's not competitive. He doesn't CARE about your operating costs - he simply knows you're not a good buy. Of course, you MIGHT be making millions by charging 4 quid (so it doesn't make you a bad business!).

 

Then we turn to the fan of a football club.

 

The facts they do know are:

 

MONEY IN - from gate receipts, league position and TV sponsorship, and a fair idea of transfer money received.

MONEY OUT - much harder for them to know about this in detail, but they can see the balance sheet, plus they have a good idea of the transfer fees paid (accepting some are over a number of years etc etc).

 

They are perfectly within their rights to say "Bill, explain to us how other clubs are managing and we are not?"

They are entitled to ask "Can you explain what factors are working against Everton that aren't working against other clubs?"

They are entitled to ask "Is it the ground Ken? is it the fan base? is it the location?"

They are entitled to ask "Man City, for whatever reason, managed to attract someone... why not Everton?"

They are entitled to ask "Liverpool have had had two lots of owners so there are buyers out there, why not us?"

They are entitled to ask "Aston Villa, for whatever reason, managed to attract someone... why not Everton?"

They are entitled to ask "Are we not at least as large as two of those clubs Bill? and if so, is it YOU that's the issue?"

They are entitled to ask "Given it's getting worse each year, what are the measures being taken to secure our future IF we can't sell?"

 

The fundamental questions aren't "what are you spending on lighting and heating and wages and advertising etc" the fundamental question is this:

 

"What factors are making Everton perform less well as a business than other comparable clubs with a similar income?"

 

Bill's never answered it. The reason is - he doesn't know.

Edited November 10, 2011 by BlueSky

[StevO]

Yes, Everton is a business. And it is being run poorly.

 

Avin, have you even bothered to look at the points being made by BU?

 

Its not all about having a billion quid to throw at transfers.

The issue is that Everton, as a business, is running very close to being bankrupt. You have seen the club say how bad things are, you have seen Bill say the banks wanted to stop them trading. The big issue is that we might be on the list of clubs who are not around anymore. We might end up in administration, selling our players to stay afloat, which would see us relegated. Going down with no money would put us out of business.

 

Its not wanting the club to chase trophies and get into worse trouble.

 

Its like some people slag the BU off without actually listening to what they have to say.

[Avinalaff]

 

Av, come on?! what is going on with you today??? Are you saying that fans who have followed this club and will continue to do so do not have a right to voice their concerns at a regime that has seen us edge towards adminsitration despite asset stripping, increased debt, net transfer spends of zilch?

 

Why do people keep coming out with the nonsense that we want a billionaire sugar daddy lie abramovich or the sheikh? I don't. I want owners with a vision, who can give us the financial platform and infrastructure to grow "organically" (how's about that for business minded?)

 

Kenwright and co are ill equipped to run a championship club.

 

Haf,

 

Tell me a single thing about Everton in which you are happy, and it would be a good start.

 

This seems to be always the same lads mixing it with the same lads, which isn't going to change.

 

Had guys like yourself discussed positives as well as negatives, there wouldn't be so many locks on the windows from those who feel this negative attitude is a poison running through the blue vein. I've not seen a single point raised by the BU, or even your good self, which quite frankly isn't a moan.

 

Look at football, and see what has happened to it.

[Hafnia]

 

Haf,

 

Tell me a single thing about Everton in which you are happy, and it would be a good start.

 

This seems to be always the same lads mixing it with the same lads, which isn't going to change.

 

Had guys like yourself discussed positives as well as negatives, there wouldn't be so many locks on the windows from those who feel this negative attitude is a poison running through the blue vein. I've not seen a single point raised by the BU, or even your good self, which quite frankly isn't a moan.

 

Look at football, and see what has happened to it.

 

What am I happy about re: Everton? That people can still just about recall that we are a proud club and are worthy of more than what we are experiencing. I am happy that I am an Evertonian because I love Everton.

 

Everything else is bitter sweet - happy about the youth coming through? saleable assets that may be at United in order to keep us afloat. Happy that we are still in the premier league (an eery realisation of where we are) - why be happy in maintaining when we should be enhancing?

 

I really don't get what type of fan you think I need to be - all I am is someone who has watched us for near 30 years and know we deserve a damn sight more than this diluted shell of the club that was.

[StevO]

Avin, if the bank come knocking on the door next summer wanting to shut the club down again, which is a real possibility, will you still be positive?

Not trying to be funny, just a general question. That is my biggest worry.

[Avinalaff]

Avin, if the bank come knocking on the door next summer wanting to shut the club down again, which is a real possibility, will you still be positive?

Not trying to be funny, just a general question. That is my biggest worry.

 

Ste, that's crazy talk.

 

There are professional people in place to run the club. Is your worrying going to change anything? Is your complaining going to change anything? Is sacking Moyes going to change anything?

 

Please don't presume that just because people aren't doom and gloom mongerers that they aren't aware of the situation, or at least any less than the next fan.

 

There is one thing to be concerned, and another to be misguided.

 

The quickest way to save the club is to stop being so demanding, and settle for what we have. It's not the club that is the problem, but the fans.

[StevO]

 

Ste, that's crazy talk.

 

There are professional people in place to run the club. Is your worrying going to change anything? Is your complaining going to change anything? Is sacking Moyes going to change anything?

 

Please don't presume that just because people aren't doom and gloom mongerers that they aren't aware of the situation, or at least any less than the next fan.

 

There is one thing to be concerned, and another to be misguided.

 

The quickest way to save the club is to stop being so demanding, and settle for what we have. It's not the club that is the problem, but the fans.

 

You think these professionals are doing that then? If that is the case then why did the banks want to stop the club trading this year?

I'm not saying us fans can change it, but if you think that being positive will change it then that is just crazy!

 

Please, tell me how the fans are the problem. When the clubs owners and employees have sold all the assets and still got the debts very high, when we have been at the brink, how have the fans done that?

 

I'm not trying to be nasty here Avin, but its like you cant accept the board have put us in this position.

[Avinalaff]

 

You think these professionals are doing that then? If that is the case then why did the banks want to stop the club trading this year?

I'm not saying us fans can change it, but if you think that being positive will change it then that is just crazy!

 

Please, tell me how the fans are the problem. When the clubs owners and employees have sold all the assets and still got the debts very high, when we have been at the brink, how have the fans done that?

 

I'm not trying to be nasty here Avin, but its like you cant accept the board have put us in this position.

 

I look at it from as many angles as I can Steve. I don't have all the answers mate. Heck, I don't even have all the questions, but I do know that most of the fans who want changes, don't know what changes are needed. They just like to jump on the band wagon.

 

It would be naive to think the board don't have the best interests of 'their' club at heart, and it would be even more naive to think at that level of business, they aren't qualified to address the matters, should a solution present itself. The biggest crime of naivety is to think the fans know better than the board.

 

To even discuss the matter takes far more information than we have been furnished with in order to avoid speculation, and even if we had all the information at hand, most of us wouldn't know what to do with it, or understand what the figures represented.

 

It's not what we do. It 'is' what they do.

 

I'm confident that the club will survive, and if it means a trip to a lower division for a while in order to do that then so be it. It didn't do Newcastle any harm.

[StevO]

but why are the people at the club more qualified to run businesses than people like me and you, who away from being football fans, run businesses?

 

in recent history i am sure if have made some better business decisions than some people at the club. maybe only for a tenth of the value, but some of the deals they have done are just poor, naive and short sighted.

 

the biggest crime of naivity can also be applied to club employees as well as followers.

 

what makes you confident we will survive? bill had to beg to stay in business this year. why will next summer be different?

[Avinalaff]

but why are the people at the club more qualified to run businesses than people like me and you, who away from being football fans, run businesses?

 

in recent history i am sure if have made some better business decisions than some people at the club. maybe only for a tenth of the value, but some of the deals they have done are just poor, naive and short sighted.

 

the biggest crime of naivity can also be applied to club employees as well as followers.

 

what makes you confident we will survive? bill had to beg to stay in business this year. why will next summer be different?

 

Steve, I have a little business acumen, as I worked for a national company for many years, and as you know I've been self employed too, but I don't have enough experience at the required level to pass judgement, nor have I qualifications in accountancy, as I paid accountants to do that for me.

 

I'm confident we will survive because it is good business for the banks for us to be in debt, even if it meant selling everything we had to clear some of it and starting again.

After 40 years of supporting the club, I'm prepared to take a step backwards in order for the club to survive. I put my own ego, or feelings to one side. If the club win the title, it doesn't change our lives, nor does it change our lives if they are relegated. It simply changes the fixture list.

 

What I deem to be survival, and what you deem to be survival may or may not be the same, but survive it will.

[Matt]

 

I'm confident that the club will survive, and if it means a trip to a lower division for a while in order to do that then so be it. It didn't do Newcastle any harm.

?! Really?! We go down - we lose Felli, Baines, Rodwell, Jags, Cahill - minimum. Then, if we dont come straight back up we lose our parachute payments and dont get that massive amount of input, meaning we have to cut the wage bill by selling more players. If we go down, we do a Leeds or Swindon or Portsmouth - it would kill us.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Matt

[FanchesterCity]

Over the last 10 years or so, we've seen a lot of clubs make a mess of their finances. Not least because aspect of the business are much more of a gamble than many other businesses. Every business takes risks, but football clubs are renowned for taking excessive risk and operating in a manner than not be acceptable in other businesses - wage structure is a prime example. Borrowings against future earnings is commonplace in business, but not to the extent it is in football!

 

It's been documented that when the Abu Dhabi Group came to City they were genuinely stunned at how bad things were. I mean truly appalling stuff going on. Yes, that's City, but I honestly believe they weren't 'unusual' - I believe that's actually the state of play at many clubs.

 

I've said for a long time that there will a BIG name casualty in football sooner or later - I hope I'm wrong, but it could be anybody it really could. Liverpool, United, Arsenal, City, Everton et al - they've all got 'issues' in one form or another. You're skint, we're screwed if the owners leave, United can't afford to drop out of PL etc etc.

 

I sympathise with the view that professionals are in charge at the club(s) but -

 

The track record is not a shining example for all of those clubs is it? You can highlight the owners and say they've done well in the USA, or in their own line of businesses, but a massively high percentage of football clubs are in a financial mess, and certainly none of them are a shining example of good business practice.

 

I think fans are right to be concerned about what COULD happen to Everton. It's all too easy to think 'can't happen here' - next thing you know players are being sold and there's new chairman called "Kisma Arz" who vows to turn his cooking fat empire into a sporting legacy (once we regain promotion!).

 

I maintain - something is WRONG when our very best clubs can't operate as highly successful business. They should be creaming it in.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Let's just say the blue union are the G.P, everton is their patient. The patient has come in to their surgery and looks a terrible mess, the parent of the patient thinks chicken soup will sort them out and has tried this for a good while. The G.P suggests the patient sees a specialist but this falls on deaf ears.

 

Oh yes, this patient was one of the top performers at school too, fell way behind as they are never there.

 

 

 

Surely a GP is well qualified in his field and has the facts at hand to make his prognosis?

 

The BU are more like a witch doctor than a GP

[Avinalaff]

?! Really?! We go down - we lose Felli, Baines, Rodwell, Jags, Cahill - minimum. Then, if we dont come straight back up we lose our parachute payments and dont get that massive amount of input, meaning we have to cut the wage bill by selling more players. If we go down, we do a Leeds or Swindon or Portsmouth - it would kill us.

 

I don't see any problems with any of the teams in the division that have come back to the Premiership Matt.

 

Who cares if we lose the players as long as the club is safe? I sure don't. The club comes first, not the players. Without a club there are no players anyway. I'd rather have a Championship team or worse for a few years than the club fold. My dick will still be the same size regardless of what league we play in.

[Avinalaff]

 

 

 

Surely a GP is well qualified in his field and has the facts at hand to make his prognosis?

 

The BU are more like a witch doctor than a GP

 

Superb response lol.

[Hafnia]

 

Roll up roll up!!! Bungling Bill's magical potion, so powerful, once drunk it can make stadiums, investment, training grounds and players vanish into thin air - do we have any volunteers? you Mr Samuelson? You Mr Harris? - how about you Mr Elstone? OK OK come on up Mr Ross, tell these good folk about what happened to the ring fenced Kings dock money - didn't it vanish into thin air? How about the Fortress Fund and the NTL cheque - did I not make them vanish also?

[FanchesterCity]

I think the questions Blue Union ask are perfectly valid.

 

But I also think their demand for change is dubious. Surely they should only ask for change once have the answers to the questions and make a decision based on that.

 

Although, you could argue that the club being frugal with information might be cause enough to want a change in the management (not Moyes).

 

The one thing they don't seem to have considered (by their own admission), and herefore the fatal flaw in asking for change is:

 

What / who should be the replacement. Until that is answered, it's foolish to ask for change. It bears all the hallmarks of a stale marriage - fans don't know WHAT they really want, they just know this isn't it.

 

 

I have a tonne of sympathy for their frustrations though, but think that most protest (and for that matter, fans discussing it) is futile. Great for debate, but won't change anything. The only thing that would change it would be serious demonstrations calling for folks heads - and that's an awful way to protest. It might come to it eventually, but I truly hope not.

 

The BU don't appear to be attempting to offer a cure - they are simply saying "say what you like, but you don't LOOK well - I think you should see a doctor" whilst the board are saying "I'm just short of breath and have a pain in my left arm, and chest feels tight - but I'm easting Special K from now own to make it stop"

 

 

 

BU: "I know I'm not a navigator, but that looks like fair size iceberg on the horizon Bill"

Bill: "This is the Titanic - finest ship ever(ton) built, leave it with us, I'll don my captain's hat and sail us through it"

BU: "ok Bill, but it still looks a bit too big and dangerous!"

Bill: "Do you actually understand fluid dynamics?"

BU: "No Bill, do you?"

Bill: "No, but that's not the point"

BU: "Bill, it's a f**king big iceberg"

Edited November 10, 2011 by BlueSky

[Matt]

 

I don't see any problems with any of the teams in the division that have come back to the Premiership Matt.

 

Who cares if we lose the players as long as the club is safe? I sure don't. The club comes first, not the players. Without a club there are no players anyway. I'd rather have a Championship team or worse for a few years than the club fold. My dick will still be the same size regardless of what league we play in.

That.... Is one of the most bizarre things Ive ever read..... I dont even know how to word my response now......

[Hafnia]

Just found out apparently our beloved Bill has increased his shares in the club by an extra 290 over the last month - Willy Russell's 290 has gone by all accounts. hmmmmmmmmmmm

[Avinalaff]

That.... Is one of the most bizarre things Ive ever read..... I dont even know how to word my response now......

 

Some lads couldn't bear playing in the Championship for their own ego, regardless of the club, and some brag of winning trophies like it's some kind of penis extension. You've been away far too long Matt by the sounds of it.

[FanchesterCity]

It's the nature of football these days. Player/club loyalty counts for little on both sides now. The is still some but few and fat between.

 

Avin is right to say the future of the club is paramount over any player.... Or manager or chairman... And dare I say fan too.

 

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

[Matt]

 

Some lads couldn't bear playing in the Championship for their own ego, regardless of the club, and some brag of winning trophies like it's some kind of penis extension. You've been away far too long Matt by the sounds of it.

 

The players want to play at the highest level so they can win things, represent their country etc. Thats just natural in people with a competitive nature. Not sure how my living abroad has anything to do with this conversation.

[Romey 1878]

 

The players want to play at the highest level so they can win things, represent their country etc. Thats just natural in people with a competitive nature.

 

 

He's talking about the fans, not the players, I think.

[FanchesterCity]

Good spot!.. it read like players to me.

 

There isn't a fan in the land who would hate going down, and it would be harder for Everton than most due to Everyone being top flight for so long. Theyd get over it though.

 

Just been reading a post on another board. 13 years ago today wycombe 1 : 0 City... But the point being about the awful depression of trawling to awful grounds through industrial estates with no transport etc. It's another world.

 

Evertons priority has to be making sure their fans never have to go through that. It's awful.

 

Sod the players... They come and go... The fans are tied for life

 

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

[Matt]

 

 

He's talking about the fans, not the players, I think.

if thats the case I hold up my hands, but it read like players to me.

[StevO]

 

Some lads couldn't bear playing in the Championship for their own ego, regardless of the club, and some brag of winning trophies like it's some kind of penis extension. You've been away far too long Matt by the sounds of it.

 

the issue i have with us being in the championship is that we have loans based on premiership tv money, on premiership season ticket sales and premier league bonuses.

if we are in the championship for one year and come back up we would probably be fine, but if we are in there for say three years and parachute payments stop then we dont have to money to pay off the loans, and then we go bankrupt. you see that side of it dont you?

 

and for the record, for every three point my dick grows an inch, my missus is not happy this season!

[FanchesterCity]

Even with the parachute payments - you still lose money, as of often sponsors are less keen, and attendances fall - although, you can actually increase attendances if you're winning - fans do like to see a winning team.

 

But don't got down, whatever you do. It's awful. I can't say I want any team to go down, but since 3 teams have to, it would feel more natural for at least 10 other clubs before Everton. I don't you're even close to going down, but I do think it's surprising easy to get caught up in at all, even for teams playing pretty well. Ultimately, nobody is immune.

 

If I'm honest, I think there are some who'd like to see Everton go down (or any big club that's not been down for a while) just to give folks a taste of how awful it is, and to remind clubs that it can happen to ANYBODY. But any decent fan who holds back on that little urge will rightly expect to see Everton break clear of it, and be glad to see them do so.

 

I want to go to games where the big clubs have full stadiums and the atmosphere is electric and there's everything to play for right up to the very last game of the season. Villa, Spurs, Liverpool, Everton, Arsenal et al - these are the clubs where such games should always be high points of the season.

 

I'd just love to see a GREAT investor at Everton say "Liverpool, we're coming for you" :-) I actually like LFC but I'd just like to see a few different teams at the top for a change and let the traditional top 4 do the chasing for a while.

 

BK (to me) seems a genuine bloke with all the right passion for Everton - but he can't take you back to where you belong.

Let's just hope you don't end up with Venky's type ownership, even though all the signs are pointing to Asian suitors

[Avinalaff]

 

 

He's talking about the fans, not the players, I think.

 

Yes, the fans.

 

For me, we have to forget about tradition, and history, and come down a peg or two, and realise things are very different now, rather than pressurizing the club to find success regardless of the cost. So what if we've had a few bad years. Other clubs have been relegated. Look at Southampton for example. We might be one of the top clubs, but now we are skint. When you fall into the shit, the best thing is to take your tuxedo off and put on a pair of overalls. Some of our fans remind me of rich passengers on the titanic. Feelings of entitlement equates to nothing more than self-centeredness.