Moyes

[StevO]

 

If Moyse really was playing his favourites, was tactically inept, always putting square pegs in round holes by choice, had no plan B and all the other things he is accused of in here then why the f*ck dont you guys want him sacked?

 

because he is still the best we can get.

we all want better, we all want to improve, but without the finances we cant get a better manager than moyes.

[FanchesterCity]

There seems to be some contradiction in the Moyes argument here:

 

On the one hand - it's not because he's a bad manager

On the other hand - the team aren't playing as well as they could do (under performing / bad tactics / out of position)

 

If a team is under performing, then you have to look at the manager and question why, and ultimately question him as a manager - because effectively it's bad management!

 

Personally, I don't think he is a bad manager. Has something 'changed' in him? or had he always been questionable? His results suggest he's a decent manager - so either he's changed, or the club have. I think the club / tools he has available are diminishing all the time and it's nothing to do with him as a manager.

 

He can't BE clueless - he's kept Everton hovering around the top 6 for years. So to my mind, there's a reason he's doing stuff he's doing - fans might not understand why, or know all the facts, but he's not just tossing the player names and tactics into a hat and pulling them out at random.

 

I 100% agree that Everton as one of the biggest clubs should be challenging for (of not actually IN) Europe pretty much every year - virtually goes without saying - BUT maybe, just maybe, no matter how much you believe the team are better than they are - maybe they really aren't quite good enough at the moment?

 

It's not an Everton put down, it's just the current team reality. Every club has fans saying "so and so is underrated, or we were unlucky etc etc" but sometimes you have to stop thinking "we are top 6, and underachieving" and acknowledge "we're mid table and need to improve the team to get back in top 6"?

 

All of that said, it's early days in the PL so far and a lot can change for better or worse. After Christmas you'll have a better idea of where you really are in the grand scheme of things.

 

Everton have a great manager, and a few great players, and ALWAYS have the promise of getting back to the top where they belong. Sadly the 'club' situation at the moment is holding Everton back - not Moyes. You're only ever 2-3 players away from being top 6 again, but those 2-3 never seem to arrive :-(

 

Just my opinion of course.

[StevO]

the current team arent good enough.

but thats not moyes fault, he has been robbed of so much talent and not had it replaced.

[FanchesterCity]

 

 

because he is still the best we can get.

we all want better, we all want to improve, but without the finances we cant get a better manager than moyes.

 

100% agree. I listed potential Moyes replacements, and I've still to see anybody demonstrate how anybody else would definitely be a step up.

[StevO]

if he went for any reason, i wouldnt mind owen coyle. but id rather keep moyes and see him try to find another way of improving the team, obviously i dont know how to do that, but thats why he gets £5m a year and i dont.

 

id also put in a mention for paul lambert, big fan of him as a manager/coach. think hes done wonders with norwich.

[FanchesterCity]

I think O'Neill would do a decent job. He doesn't suffer fools gladly and players would want to play for him. If you can't toss money, or CL at players, then it's down to club stature and the manager. O'Neill would attract players. The only real downside is that he has a bit of a reputation for taking no crap with the club too, and if things don't go his way - he's off!

 

Hughton's done well too and he's young, and for him Everton would be a real step up, even without money.

 

And, dare I even mention Hughes? He got a lot of bad press at City, but he has a pretty decent tract record really. Doesn't generally come out with daft statements etc.

 

But again, are any of them really a step up?

 

And if you go a step up and try for the bigger name Managers like Ancelotti, or Huddink etc, would they really be looking to stay at Everton for long? I'm not sure they would.

 

 

[Bill]

In the present climate, it is common knowledge that we have no money, so anyone better than Moyes would only take the job if we had big buyers who could provide a big transfer kitty, without this there is nobody else i would trust. Moyes is the best manager we could hope for to keep us at this level.

Edited November 4, 2011 by Bill

[Avinalaff]

If Moyes had millions to spend, I'm sure he'd do just as good as others.

 

Just because Bily has been disappointing doesn't make for a bad management decision, especially when you consider the signings Moyes has made that have flourished.

 

Each year, his targets go to other clubs, as he has no funds to compete in the market.

 

I expect the 'poor old Everton' to get more media exposure soon, as we strive for a buyer, but there are plenty of teams who would take Moyes in a heart beat if we don't want him.

 

Be careful what you wish for.

[FanchesterCity]

Whenever a job comes up, Moyes' name gets a mention as a candidate.

Even today, his name was mentioned as a potential replacement for Taggart at Old Trafford.

 

That's how well regarded he is by a lot of other fans.

 

I suspect if the club IS sold, Moyes will go, or be shoved it soon afterwards. It's usually a daft 'statement' made by the new owners - bring in a new manager to demonstrate the regime change and the 'going places' diatribe. I believe they term the practice 'bringing their own man in'.

 

I agree the big names would only come if they had money to spend. The 'up and coming' managers would still come due to the kudos of managing Everton, but they're no guarantee of improvement.

 

All the rest of the managers are just on the merry-go-round of making no difference to any club they're at, except for a short term boost of 'new manager' and spending a fortune on dismantling a squad and replacing with a different one of equal incompetence.

[Avinalaff]

Isn't it strange that the so called 'big names' haven't exactly proven themselves with smaller clubs, with no money?

 

Everybody wants Jose for example, but did he take Norwich up from division 2 without a bean, or win the league with Bolton? It must be awful having the fastest car, winning the races, and being told you are the best driver.

[FanchesterCity]

Yep. Actually today there was a discussion on Fergie and how well he did at Aberdeen... which is fair point.

 

There seems to be a 'top level' merry-go-round too who never actually do a great deal (Eriksson, Ancelotti, Hiddink et al).

 

If you take over a club like United or Chelsea - it should be no surprise if you win a bloody trophy once in a while.

 

For me, I've always thought one club is not enough. When a manager has repeatedly performed well at multiple clubs, then he's unquestionably talented. And by performed well I mean left a club in a much better state than when he arrived.

 

Now, I don't really want to sing the praises of Mancini, but... I'll say this much, he DOES seem to be trying to change the 'mentality' of a team. It's not just him, it's a whole club thing, but I think that's the hardest thing to do. A bit easier when you're winning of course.

 

Fergie too - as much as he's had money, he's been merciless too. If you're not good enough, you're out. If you have the wrong attitude (in his eyes) you're out. If you're past your best - you're out.

 

As for Mourinho - he's shrewd. He's stepped into good sides, and added a little bit of arrogance, and they've gone on to do a bit better. Big deal. And yet he's virtually the new messiah according to some. I don't get it.

 

The very best example is Eriksson, who HAS gone to lowly teams. And what's he done for them? Sod all. He's attracted a slightly better class of player and improved nothing.

 

Sadly, it seems IF you have a team of primadonnas, you HAVE to have a top manager or they won't show any respect (they only seem to listen to former great players). And yet strangely the worlds most successful managers were never great players themselves (nor should they have to be).

 

 

[Avinalaff]

Mourinho didn't kick a ball in anger did he ?

[FanchesterCity]

ok ok I take it back!

 

But I do still think there is some assumption that former great players know the game better (and I don't believe they do)

Edited November 4, 2011 by BlueSky

[Avinalaff]

BTW, Erikson is among the best.

 

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  [*]England

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[FanchesterCity]

Is, or was?

 

And to be fair, the majority was with a damn fine Lazio side who'd already won the cup the year (poss 2) before Eriksson arrived, and finished 2nd in Serie when Eriksson came. So already on the verge.

[Lowensda]

Hiddink's one of the best imo. Doesn't always take the big jobs that you'd expect. Man manager who plays the right way!

[Avinalaff]

I think you have to get better with experience, as opposed to worse.

 

He's been a victim of the press since he arrived on the UK scene somewhat, and since then hasn't really had a lengthy position in which to achieve fruition.

I think teams have always played great football under him. The Prem is a very impatient host for managers. Only a few survive more than a few seasons, Mourinho and company were no exception.

[Bailey]

There seems to be some contradiction in the Moyes argument here:

 

On the one hand - it's not because he's a bad manager

On the other hand - the team aren't playing as well as they could do (under performing / bad tactics / out of position)

 

If a team is under performing, then you have to look at the manager and question why, and ultimately question him as a manager - because effectively it's bad management!

 

We know he isnt a bad manager because as you say his record is good. He has taken us from the relegation zone to Europe playing football we probably didnt think was possible when he took over. The problem is, for whatever reason, we have gradually stopped doing all the things that made us successful. When he came you could see the passion & determination in his eyes, at the moment he looks and acts like someone who is helpless to the forces around him, and IMO the start of this decline came with the Lescott sale. Maybe that brought the realisation that no matter how far he could take this club, other teams with more money would still be able to pinch his best players? Who knows, it could all be bollocks!

 

I 100% agree that Everton as one of the biggest clubs should be challenging for (of not actually IN) Europe pretty much every year - virtually goes without saying - BUT maybe, just maybe, no matter how much you believe the team are better than they are - maybe they really aren't quite good enough at the moment?

 

It's not an Everton put down, it's just the current team reality. Every club has fans saying "so and so is underrated, or we were unlucky etc etc" but sometimes you have to stop thinking "we are top 6, and underachieving" and acknowledge "we're mid table and need to improve the team to get back in top 6"?

 

All of that said, it's early days in the PL so far and a lot can change for better or worse. After Christmas you'll have a better idea of where you really are in the grand scheme of things.

 

Everton have a great manager, and a few great players, and ALWAYS have the promise of getting back to the top where they belong. Sadly the 'club' situation at the moment is holding Everton back - not Moyes. You're only ever 2-3 players away from being top 6 again, but those 2-3 never seem to arrive :-(

 

Just my opinion of course.

 

For me its not necessarily about the winning and where we finish and to be honest we played averagely for most of last season and ended up 7th. If we had shown the same desire and commitment we showed the previous couple of seasons before that (or maybe just in the new year!) we would have been challenging the top 4 if not better.

 

I dont doubt in my mind that we have one of the best squads we have ever had for the last 10-15 years, and while we dont have the depth in some places, this team has proven it can compete with the big boys & beat them, or at least give them a real good game. Against your lot and against Chelsea we let you take the 3 points of us and that is not good enough for any team in the premiership, let alone what were starting 11's laced with quality players. I wouldnt actually swap too many players from other teams into our best 11, yes a decent winger or all round striker certainly wouldnt go amiss, but aside from that, I wouldnt be too bothered.

 

Also back to the point about which managers could come in a improve us straight away, I think you could name a majority of managers in the topflight that could come in and re-juvinate the club. I think there are several managers who could bring back that spark (including most of the ones you have mentioned - although I would swerve Sven & Mcclaren!) and as I pointed out, I also believe Moyes himself could do great things with this squad if he just took a step back and started afresh.

[marcus jones]

Bloody hell I only wanted to say that Moyes needs someone in the dug out with him to tell him where he is going wrong! Put on the right substitutes at the right time etc........!

[Avinalaff]

Bloody hell I only wanted to say that Moyes needs someone in the dug out with him to tell him where he is going wrong! Put on the right substitutes at the right time etc........!

 

It's all your fault.

[marcus jones]

 

It's all your fault.

Then I'm getting sacked in the morning!

[smeghead1]

Maybe we should get Sven.

 

Havent read past this yet but are you really serious he paid 4 million thats 4 million for a certain striker we got for free. He spent a fortune at Leicester and struggled to win games in the championship never mind the prem. The guys crap, serioously crap id cry my eyes out for a good fortnight if he was made manager.

[marcus jones]

Havent read past this yet but are you really serious he paid 4 million thats 4 million for a certain striker we got for free. He spent a fortune at Leicester and struggled to win games in the championship never mind the prem. The guys crap, serioously crap id cry my eyes out for a good fortnight if he was made manager.

Where's this Sven stuff for Everton coming from?

[Avinalaff]

Havent read past this yet but are you really serious he paid 4 million thats 4 million for a certain striker we got for free. He spent a fortune at Leicester and struggled to win games in the championship never mind the prem. The guys crap, serioously crap id cry my eyes out for a good fortnight if he was made manager.

 

Actually, no. I wasn't serious.

Nothing against Sven though, who I think is an excellent manager if he was afforded a long term position.

[marcus jones]

 

Actually, no. I wasn't serious.

Nothing against Sven though, who I think is an excellent manager if he was afforded a long term position.

Long term means who has got the smartest birds at the club!!

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

There seems to be some contradiction in the Moyes argument here:

 

On the one hand - it's not because he's a bad manager

On the other hand - the team aren't playing as well as they could do (under performing / bad tactics / out of position)

 

If a team is under performing, then you have to look at the manager and question why, and ultimately question him as a manager - because effectively it's bad management!

 

Personally, I don't think he is a bad manager. Has something 'changed' in him? or had he always been questionable? His results suggest he's a decent manager - so either he's changed, or the club have. I think the club / tools he has available are diminishing all the time and it's nothing to do with him as a manager.

 

He can't BE clueless - he's kept Everton hovering around the top 6 for years. So to my mind, there's a reason he's doing stuff he's doing - fans might not understand why, or know all the facts, but he's not just tossing the player names and tactics into a hat and pulling them out at random.

 

I 100% agree that Everton as one of the biggest clubs should be challenging for (of not actually IN) Europe pretty much every year - virtually goes without saying - BUT maybe, just maybe, no matter how much you believe the team are better than they are - maybe they really aren't quite good enough at the moment?

 

It's not an Everton put down, it's just the current team reality. Every club has fans saying "so and so is underrated, or we were unlucky etc etc" but sometimes you have to stop thinking "we are top 6, and underachieving" and acknowledge "we're mid table and need to improve the team to get back in top 6"?

 

All of that said, it's early days in the PL so far and a lot can change for better or worse. After Christmas you'll have a better idea of where you really are in the grand scheme of things.

 

Everton have a great manager, and a few great players, and ALWAYS have the promise of getting back to the top where they belong. Sadly the 'club' situation at the moment is holding Everton back - not Moyes. You're only ever 2-3 players away from being top 6 again, but those 2-3 never seem to arrive :-(

 

Just my opinion of course.

 

 

100% agree

[smeghead1]

 

 

Actually, no. I wasn't serious.

Nothing against Sven though, who I think is an excellent manager if he was afforded a long term position.

 

Thank god for that Avin, i thought you may have been heading for a breakdown mate and i worry about the mental health of most of us blues fans as it is ha! Did anyone else see -! Talking about the investment situation on tv last night? If hes coming out on tv and talking about it just maybe theres truth in it.

[Avinalaff]

Thank god for that Avin, i thought you may have been heading for a breakdown mate and i worry about the mental health of most of us blues fans as it is ha! Did anyone else see -! Talking about the investment situation on tv last night? If hes coming out on tv and talking about it just maybe theres truth in it.

 

Yeah, breakdown and mental health. Good one.

[Bailey]

Today was a good example of what we used to be like & what we are now.

 

Newcastle worked hard, played some decent football at times and were well organised and committed at the back. They might not have been brilliant but easily deserved the 3 points. We used to play like that under Moyes. So if you were asking me now, who could come in and do a better job the the first man to prove it, would be Alan Pardew!

[SimonButtle]

Today was a good example of what we used to be like & what we are now.

 

Newcastle worked hard, played some decent football at times and were well organised and committed at the back. They might not have been brilliant but easily deserved the 3 points. We used to play like that under Moyes. So if you were asking me now, who could come in and do a better job the the first man to prove it, would be Alan Pardew!

exactly, and there are candidates about who would be suitable replacements, i do think Davie's time maybe up, he seems really out of his depth at the moment, and unwilling to change his philosophy to compensate