US Gun Laws

[Zoo]

Apologies if this topic is a little too strong for ToffeeTalk, if so it has my full backing to be deleted.

 

Today at the Naval Yard in Washington DC there was a gun massacre which started at around 8:00AM. There have been many casualties and many more injured. This comes just days after a massacre in Tennessee which left four people dead. Now, I'm only 19 and could name you too many US massacres that have happened in my life-time; Columbine, Virginia Tech & TDK Cinema.

 

My question is that what is the opinion of the American people? I know we've got a few on here and I would genuinely like to hear their opinion on the subject. Whenever I've seen documentaries about the mentioned killings it only fuels people to buy more weapons in an act of defence.

 

It's getting all too common in America now. As much as I don't believe in preaching to people surely some laws must be put in place to stop this from happening time and time again? Guns being allowed to anyone that holds a US citizenship is a law which is bound to cause trouble, the government needs to understand that the minority can greatly out-number the majority when they are wielding such weapons. I'm sure that 99% of Americans wouldn't dream of massacring people dead like meat in the street but sadly the 1% have a greater impact than they should do

 

Surely it's time for change?

 

RIP to the victims.

[Dalziel Kane]

Now there's a shame, I can't fucking read anything..

 

Doubtless about the shootings today in Washington, but there would have been other areas that could have accomodated, but no surprise in any event.

 

Only to say, We're all aware of the need to tighten gun control or access to firearms back home, but until they implement such actions or take a tougher stance, these instances will continue to occur (unfortunately)

[Sibdane]

I agree that gun laws should be more restrictive in the USA. I think it's ridiculous to think that a person in the USA can legally own an AK47 or other variation of an assault rifle. I makes no damn sense and isn't practical whatsoever.

 

But alas, there are many, many people who disagree with this and say that regardless of what laws are instituted, there is no way to track all of the gun activity and transactions that happen and even if we were to rid ourselves of guns completely, criminals would still have access.

 

Personally, I've never had the need for any type of firearm, but then again, I live in a relatively safe area that doesn't have a lot of crime. There was a bill that was being passed around shortly after Newtown's tragedy that called for stricter background-checks and outlawed some unnecessary firearms that had gained over 80% support of the public, but it was ultimately struck down by lawmakers. The problem lies with our politicians rather than the public, IMO, then often we'll hear "well, why don't you just not vote for him/her." Okay, then it's a vote for the other guy who is just as bad or worse.

 

very troubling times indeed.

[Matt]

I've had big debates on this topic being married to an American. Posted this in the other American thread, rather than rewrite:

 

 

Saw this yesterday, and its a good demonstration (I think) of what some people see as the typical American.

 

Truth is, this deluded, loud-mouthed fuckwit probably represents about 0.1% of the 315m people in the US.

 

After visiting my in-laws in Kentucky (which is hardly the most remote place in the US), and seeing the wild dogs, deer, snakes and even a bear, I completely understand why theyre required. Im also convinced that the idea of saying no semi-automatics is a good idea, but that if people do want to go kill people in great numbers, they'll find another way.

 

The focus needs to be on laws and licences, background checks and psych evaluations. I dont know the process for obtaining a gun (does it vary state to state or is it federal) so I cant say how good/bad it is. One thing I do know - it needs to be better.

I still maintain that only background checks and psych evaluations will make a difference. You can try and control guns all you like, but once someone goes past the point where all they want to do is kill lots of people, gun control wont necessarily prevent them from doing that. Switzerland has a bigger gun to household ratio than the US, the highest ratio in the world I believe (irony), nothing like that happens here. Why? Dunno if I'm honest but I know there are shooting ranges, service weapons carried about on the train, even the police have a pistol, so can only assume education and strict evaluations are the reason behind one of the lowest gun related crime stats for a country in the world

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

[Sibdane]

That guy is insane! Honestly, if people outside the US think Americans act like Mr. Alex Jones, it's no wonder we're hated. I'm embarrassed for him really. He doesn't know how crazy he really is. He's definitely in need of that psych evaluation you mentioned, Matt.

[Matt]

That guy is insane! Honestly, if people outside the US think Americans act like Mr. Alex Jones, it's no wonder we're hated. I'm embarrassed for him really. He doesn't know how crazy he really is. He's definitely in need of that psych evaluation you mentioned, Matt.

 

and one of those fancy white jackets that have the arms tied behind the back. Not sure you can call him an American, clearly lives in a different world...

[Sibdane]

He is only an American by birth. He is a disgrace otherwise. It's ridiculous how much he contradicts himself. He wants Morgan deported, because he believes it violates the 2nd Amendment (right to bear arms), but he's okay with denying Morgan's 1st Amendment rights(freedom of speech, press, religion...).

 

So he's upset by one amendment being questioned while stomping on the other?

 

What a TOOL.

[Blue 250]

Just got back from America visiting family, cousin showed me his new semi auto rifle, questioned on his need for this item.

 

"Only the good guys would hand in their guns, the bad guys will keep theirs and use them.....the only thing to stop a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun".

 

It's gone too far, the chances are a persons who intends to cause you problems, will have a gun, you choose.

[StevO]

That video is just crazy. That guy is such a tool! I feel mad at him just watching it.

[Matt]

http://youtu.be/aaDXUYTFL4M

[markjazzbassist]

It's really the gun lobby's fault (National Rifle Association). They give millions of dollars to politicians and pay them off to be pro gun by donating to their campaigns. Our own president is anti gun and tried to get a law passed but the NRA has paid off so many people the bill didn't get passed.

[Sibdane]

It's really the gun lobby's fault (National Rifle Association). They give millions of dollars to politicians and pay them off to be pro gun by donating to their campaigns. Our own president is anti gun and tried to get a law passed but the NRA has paid off so many people the bill didn't get passed.

 

The NRA is the worst!!

[Cornish Steve]

It's easy to criticize US gun laws from a culture where gun use is highly regulated and guns aren't really needed. The US is very different. (i) Even in the suburbs where I live, there are bears, coyotes, rattlesnakes, and the like. Guns are needed sometimes to protect yourself from them. (ii) Hunting is a popular and necessary pastime. This year, for example, we've been overrun by deer, and culling is very necessary. (iii) A large percentage of people own guns and, like it or not, we can't change that. Pandora's box is open.

 

Restricting guns now will hurt only responsible gun owners. Do you think that criminals will care one iota what restrictions are put in place? They'll laugh and laugh as their use of guns becomes more widespread. Burglaries, for example, are rare today; if guns are restricted, there will be an epidemic. Hold-ups today are not as common as portrayed in the media because the perpetrator fears that they may be shot by legal gun owners. Take that away and hold-ups will become an epidemic.

 

Yes, I believe very much in some changes. For example, there's a real problem in America with a lack of diagnosis and treatment of the mentally ill. But it's ridiculous to think that gun violence will go away if gun use is restricted. Quite the opposite is likely to happen as the 'bad guys' become emboldened.

 

Quite frankly, in Britain we don't really understand the problem - which is why Piers Morgan has made a right ass of himself on television here in the US. He is so naive.

[Cornish Steve]

It's really the gun lobby's fault (National Rifle Association). They give millions of dollars to politicians and pay them off to be pro gun by donating to their campaigns. Our own president is anti gun and tried to get a law passed but the NRA has paid off so many people the bill didn't get passed.

 

And where do you think the NRA gets its support? From a majority of the population! For non city dwellers, guns are common and even necessary. The NRA is not some whacko fringe group; it's supported by hundreds of millions of all political persuasions.

[markjazzbassist]

Sorry Cornish Steve but the majority of the population is city dwellers against guns. No offense but the country folk with Guns are the outliers. I'm not against gun use for hunting, but why do people need to be able to buy assault rifles and military grade weapons? And then were surprised when a guy shoots up a mall? Canadians have just as many guns as Americans yet 1/10 or less the gun murders. Why is that?

[Cornish Steve]

Sorry Cornish Steve but the majority of the population is city dwellers against guns. No offense but the country folk with Guns are the outliers. I'm not against gun use for hunting, but why do people need to be able to buy assault rifles and military grade weapons? And then were surprised when a guy shoots up a mall? Canadians have just as many guns as Americans yet 1/10 or less the gun murders. Why is that?

 

Try visiting Georgia or anywhere else in the South. Try visiting Colorado or other states in the desert Southwest. Try visiting Missouri or Iowa or other Heartland states. Very few, outside the cities, support gun control. Frankly, since the CEO of Starbucks asked patrons not to bring guns into his coffee shops, he may well have put him company out of business in some states.

 

Of course the media promotes gun control. That's because the media is left-wing and run from the big cities. They have very little understanding of what happens in most places in the US. Frankly, if the president tries to impose gun control in most states, there would be a huge rebellion. It's the constitutional right of citizens to own and carry guns.

 

Again, much can be done: better care for the mentally ill, place limits on the more extreme weapons available, and more sensible background checks. Plus, I'm all for insurance for gun ownership, rather like auto insurance, because insurance companies know how to assess risk. But there's no way, no way most people will accept tighter restrictions, because criminals will completely ignore them and, worse, take advantage of them.

[Cornish Steve]

Sorry Cornish Steve but the majority of the population is city dwellers against guns. No offense but the country folk with Guns are the outliers. I'm not against gun use for hunting, but why do people need to be able to buy assault rifles and military grade weapons? And then were surprised when a guy shoots up a mall? Canadians have just as many guns as Americans yet 1/10 or less the gun murders. Why is that?

 

Because Pandora's box has not been opened to the same extent. The number of weapons on the streets in the US is off the scale, and that cannot be undone. Tighter restrictions now would hurt only law-abiding citizens. What is done cannot be undone. So, it's better to allow the "good guys" to be armed than to try to disarm them while criminals ignore new laws.

[Sibdane]

 

Try visiting Georgia or anywhere else in the South. Try visiting Colorado or other states in the desert Southwest. Try visiting Missouri or Iowa or other Heartland states. Very few, outside the cities, support gun control. Frankly, since the CEO of Starbucks asked patrons not to bring guns into his coffee shops, he may well have put him company out of business in some states.

 

Of course the media promotes gun control. That's because the media is left-wing and run from the big cities. They have very little understanding of what happens in most places in the US. Frankly, if the president tries to impose gun control in most states, there would be a huge rebellion. It's the constitutional right of citizens to own and carry guns.

 

Again, much can be done: better care for the mentally ill, place limits on the more extreme weapons available, and more sensible background checks. Plus, I'm all for insurance for gun ownership, rather like auto insurance, because insurance companies know how to assess risk. But there's no way, no way most people will accept tighter restrictions, because criminals will completely ignore them and, worse, take advantage of them.

 

I live in a more rural area in Mississippi, and guns are huge here, but I also support drastic gun control. I agree with Mark when he says there's no need to have a military-grade assault rifle. I also agree with you regarding the improvement of identifying others with mental illnesses.

 

But on the Starbucks thing, I really don't want someone carrying a gun into a Starbucks. I think it's ridiculous that people would be outraged because someone doesn't want guns in their business/place of work. I personally don't want to be around someone carrying a gun when I'm just trying to pick up a cup of coffee. Where I work, guns aren't allowed, and that's acceptable to me.

[Cornish Steve]

 

But on the Starbucks thing, I really don't want someone carrying a gun into a Starbucks. I think it's ridiculous that people would be outraged because someone doesn't want guns in their business/place of work. I personally don't want to be around someone carrying a gun when I'm just trying to pick up a cup of coffee. Where I work, guns aren't allowed, and that's acceptable to me.

 

But isn't that inviting another massacre? A gunman could now walk into Starbucks knowing that law-abiding citizens left their guns in the truck. Stupidity! There's a reason that a town near us has the lowest burglary rate in the country: It's because home-owners are legally obliged to keep a gun in the house. Who's going to rob a home when the owner could shoot them, no questions asked?

[Matt]

 

But isn't that inviting another massacre? A gunman could now walk into Starbucks knowing that law-abiding citizens left their guns in the truck. Stupidity! There's a reason that a town near us has the lowest burglary rate in the country: It's because home-owners are legally obliged to keep a gun in the house. Who's going to rob a home when the owner could shoot them, no questions asked?

if anyone watched the Penn and Teller thing, that actually happened (not in a Starbucks, but a restaurant).

[Sibdane]

 

But isn't that inviting another massacre? A gunman could now walk into Starbucks knowing that law-abiding citizens left their guns in the truck. Stupidity! There's a reason that a town near us has the lowest burglary rate in the country: It's because home-owners are legally obliged to keep a gun in the house. Who's going to rob a home when the owner could shoot them, no questions asked?

 

Gunmen who commit massacres aren't usually looking to have a go at a Starbucks. They usually target places that have a great number of people. Schools, bases, etc.

 

I don't have a problem with people keeping guns in their homes. I believe people have a right to protect their most basic shelter. Leave the gun-wielding in public places to the professionals.

 

And I don't appreciate the "stupidity" comment, just because my opinion differs from your own. Look up the definition of tact.

Edited September 23, 2013 by TonkaRoost

[Sibdane]

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/interactive/2013/sep/17/us-gun-crime-map

 

Interactive map of the US and gun crime rate. I thought this was interesting to look at.

[Cornish Steve]

 

Gunmen who commit massacres aren't usually looking to have a go at a Starbucks. They usually target places that have a great number of people. Schools, bases, etc.

 

Let's put it another way: They target places - like "gun-free zones" including schools - where no "good guy" has a gun available to protect themselves.

[Cornish Steve]

And I don't appreciate the "stupidity" comment, just because my opinion differs from your own. Look up the definition of tact.

 

I used the term to describe the 'restriction', not anyone's opinions. It was not meant personally.

 

It's rather ironic. Living in the US, I get lambasted by gun owners because I believe in stricter ownership rules and background checks and what I view as sensible restrictions on what types of gun can be owned. When chatting with people outside the US, I get lambasted by those who believe that guns in themselves, not the people who own them, are the problem. Maybe if I'm beaten up by all sides, I must be doing something right.

[Sibdane]

 

Let's put it another way: They target places - like "gun-free zones" including schools - where no "good guy" has a gun available to protect themselves.

 

Most schools have security guards? At least the schools I went to did. I would assume most schools have some form of security, and if they don't, then they're really behind on the times.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/

 

Take from this what you will (Circa Dec 2012).

 

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/politics/2013/03/striking-relationship-between-gun-safety-laws-and-firearm-deaths/4902/

[Sibdane]

 

I used the term to describe the 'restriction', not anyone's opinions. It was not meant personally.

 

It's rather ironic. Living in the US, I get lambasted by gun owners because I believe in stricter ownership rules and background checks and what I view as sensible restrictions on what types of gun can be owned. When chatting with people outside the US, I get lambasted by those who believe that guns in themselves, not the people who own them, are the problem. Maybe if I'm beaten up by all sides, I must be doing something right.

 

My mistake! I actually agree with you on most of the things you say regarding gun control, but I guess I'm a bit more uptight regarding how far it should be taken. I'm not for completely ridding the USA of guns either -- like you said earlier -- too much has been done to be undone. However, I just don't understand most gun-owner ship that extends pass hand-guns and hunting equipment.

 

 

If you're beaten up by both sides then it means you're a true moderate!

[EvertonianFL]

It's easy to criticize US gun laws from a culture where gun use is highly regulated and guns aren't really needed. The US is very different. (i) Even in the suburbs where I live, there are bears, coyotes, rattlesnakes, and the like. Guns are needed sometimes to protect yourself from them. (ii) Hunting is a popular and necessary pastime. This year, for example, we've been overrun by deer, and culling is very necessary. (iii) A large percentage of people own guns and, like it or not, we can't change that. Pandora's box is open.

 

Restricting guns now will hurt only responsible gun owners. Do you think that criminals will care one iota what restrictions are put in place? They'll laugh and laugh as their use of guns becomes more widespread. Burglaries, for example, are rare today; if guns are restricted, there will be an epidemic. Hold-ups today are not as common as portrayed in the media because the perpetrator fears that they may be shot by legal gun owners. Take that away and hold-ups will become an epidemic.

 

Yes, I believe very much in some changes. For example, there's a real problem in America with a lack of diagnosis and treatment of the mentally ill. But it's ridiculous to think that gun violence will go away if gun use is restricted. Quite the opposite is likely to happen as the 'bad guys' become emboldened.

 

Quite frankly, in Britain we don't really understand the problem - which is why Piers Morgan has made a right ass of himself on television here in the US. He is so naive.

For real? Burglaries are rare in the US? According to the FBI Crime Statistics from 2009, there were just under 2.2 MILLION burglaries in the US. http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/property_crime/burglary.html

 

 

I live in the USA, and the gun laws (or lack thereof) are absurd. I understand where you are coming from with hunting as a pastime, but surely one does not need a military-grade assault to kill a fucking deer. Rifles work just fine. Also, with 40% of the total population living on the coasts, they are hardly likely to encounter bears, coyotes and rattlesnakes. And even if they did, again military assault rifles are not needed (perhaps for the bear...but a well placed rifle shot would do the trick).

 

I am not against the public owning guns, but I am certainly against them having access to military grade weapons. There is absolutely no need for it, and here we refer to it as "overcompensating". It's like how some Americans have huge, lifted pickup trucks. "Overcompensating for something else of theirs that is small" ie. genitals, IQ, common sense...etc.

[Blue 250]

It's like how some Americans have huge, lifted pickup trucks. "Overcompensating for something else of theirs that is small" ie. genitals

 

Message to the ladies of the forum, I don't own a gun.....and have a very small car!

[Cornish Steve]

For real? Burglaries are rare in the US? According to the FBI Crime Statistics from 2009, there were just under 2.2 MILLION burglaries in the US. http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/property_crime/burglary.html

 

I'm not sure where you live, but, having lived almost 30 years in the US, I don't know anyone who has ever had their house burgled - and I've lived in Massachusetts, Florida, and Georgia and have friends in many other states. When we moved to the Atlanta area and were house-hunting, we noticed that several homes had no locks on the doors. When we visited friends in Nebraska, no one in the entire town had locks on their homes. 'Home invasions', as they are called, around here make it to the main news headlines.

[Cornish Steve]

 

Message to the ladies of the forum, I don't own a gun.....and have a very small car!

 

Battery operated?