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Referendum  

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  1. 1. In or out?

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3 minutes ago, rubecula said:

or do you feel I have screwed you by voting for what I believe in? 

Maybe not what you believe in but you need to remember that you are in bed with Farage, Gove, Rees-Mogg  and Johnson et al, all of whom have jumped ship since they won their completely unexpected ""victory"? Does that sit comfortably with you?

The country is screwed, you and your fellow voters haven't screwed me personally but they have my kids and grand-kids.

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5 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Maybe not what you believe in but you need to remember that you are in bed with Farage, Gove, Rees-Mogg  and Johnson et al, all of whom have jumped ship since they won their completely unexpected ""victory"? Does that sit comfortably with you?

The country is screwed, you and your fellow voters haven't screwed me personally but they have my kids and grand-kids.

sorry you feel that way Mike

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On ‎22‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 12:15, MikeO said:

 

The out camp are doing exactly the same thing.

 

Nobody really knows the consequences of leaving, even the campaigners are guessing.

 

I'll vote to stay in purely for the reason I gave here...

 

http://www.toffeetalk.com/index.php?/topic/27857-would-you-like-to-make-history/&do=findComment&comment=510346

;)  I fully agree with this bit Mike.

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9 hours ago, rubecula said:

I don't feel screwed just now mike we live in a democracy and I have faith in the system, despite the numpties that were voted in to help us in the first place.  

or do you feel I have screwed you by voting for what I believe in?  I would never have said that about you folks if the vote had gone the other way.  why would I  ??  I have already said I believe in democracy

No doubt you believe in democracy, I'm just not sure you or  most of the population understand how it works (myself included, at least not into the legal details.)

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14 hours ago, MikeO said:

Maybe not what you believe in but you need to remember that you are in bed with Farage, Gove, Rees-Mogg  and Johnson et al, all of whom have jumped ship since they won their completely unexpected ""victory"? Does that sit comfortably with you?

The country is screwed, you and your fellow voters haven't screwed me personally but they have my kids and grand-kids.

Mike, and you are in bed with Blair.  Don't really need to say any more, do I?

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21 minutes ago, johnh said:

Mike, and you are in bed with Blair.  Don't really need to say any more, do I?

He was a peripheral figure and not an elected politician representative, but even if he were then yes I'd have been much happier with him on my side than the four pond scum I mentioned. I was also "in bed" with your local MP during the campaign I believe.

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5 hours ago, MikeO said:

He was a peripheral figure and not an elected politician representative, but even if he were then yes I'd have been much happier with him on my side than the four pond scum I mentioned. I was also "in bed" with your local MP during the campaign I believe.

Add the four together and they don't equal Blair.  There were wankers on both sides (I haven't mentioned Cameron).  None of them influenced my vote to leave.  I made up my own mind and it was made up a long time before the referendum was announced.

 

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1 minute ago, johnh said:

Add the four together and they don't equal Blair.

Couldn't disagree more but this isn'tt the Gana thread so we'll just agree to disagree (if that's OK with you):).

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On 06/11/2018 at 06:15, rubecula said:

Mike I know mate  I am not worried about a border between England and france  (we have nearly always had one anyway) my worry is a land border when none of the folks on that land want a border there.

 

Rubes when you voted out what did you think you were voting for, you voted for borders that was top of the agenda for Brexit voters oh and of course the 350 million a day for the NHS. 

Or didn’t you realise that Southern Ireland 🇮🇪 and Northern Ireland 🇬🇧 were to different countries, the first being a member of the EU the second no longer wanting to be in the EU. 

The truth is you voted out with not even knowing what you were voting for and you still don’t to this day no one knows what out means still, so I can in my head only draw on one theory it was racist vote not the type of rascism that is easy for all to see and hear and is easy to see, but a rascism that is hidden in the guise of Nationalism. 

You will deny it of course and you genuinely don’t believe you are a racist and l believe you 100% because you believe a racist is a person who calls someone a wog or a paki and you haven’t done that I know. 

But it goes a lot deeper than that it’s a form of institutional racism that people of a certain age were brought up with through the tv press and politics that’s why the biggest % of out voters for out were over 50s, and the Tory press latched on to this as did Boris and Gove and they sold Brexit by appealing to the institutionalised racism that’s in most people of a certain generation. 

But this form of rascism hasn’t been engrained on the younger generation that’s why they cast the bigger % of remain votes. 

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Palfy me oul mate, you are so wrong about me,  however I do not want to get into an argument about why I voted the way I did (again) but if you really want to know I have said in the thread prior to this.

 

referring to me as a racist in any way shape or form is so offensive I can not begin to say what I want to say.

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1 hour ago, rubecula said:

Palfy me oul mate, you are so wrong about me,  however I do not want to get into an argument about why I voted the way I did (again) but if you really want to know I have said in the thread prior to this.

 

referring to me as a racist in any way shape or form is so offensive I can not begin to say what I want to say.

Lots of our generation are Rubes unfortunately it’s a fact but we don’t see it because of the times we were brought up in, I am one of those not my fault I grew up in the era of Enoch Powel and the rivers of blood Love thy neighbour Golly wogs on Jam jars the list goes on, I would be a liar if I said that had no bearing on the way I thought. 

It took my children especially my daughters to reign me in and say dad you can’t say that, when I genuinely said things that I considered to be PC with no intention of being racist they showed me why it would be thought that way. 

They are what this country this world should be about, they have friends that are  of African, Caribbean, Chinese , Indian, Italian and Irish decent, also a couple of friends who are from Poland, all my kids voted remain because they couldn’t see a reason not to they were happy they had no problems with their friends from other EU countries, they had good jobs and freedoms they never felt a pressed or threatened, but not now one of my daughters has a job in the financial industry she may lose her job if things end badly her company are looking at relocating to Paris, her world is being ripped apart and for what Rubes fucking tell me so I can tell her.

So if you think I’m concerned that I may have hurt your feelings by what I’ve said to bad you take out of what I said what ever you want, but your vote as far as my kids are concerned has  condemned them to an uncertain future a future that will have little bearing on you me Mike and John you should have listened to the younger generation it’s their future you decided on. 

You never know like me they might of taught you something opened up your eyes to different world than the one you grew up in, the one that made you vote out. 

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On 06/11/2018 at 06:53, rubecula said:

;)  I fully agree with this bit Mike.

I don't see how you can fully agree with..

"...we need to be moving in the opposite direction [to segregation] imo, the more we separate and build walls (talking to you Mr Trump) and take the, "I'm all right Jack, screw the rest of you" attitude the more dangerous the planet will become."

....and then decide to vote for separation:huh:.

  •  

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9 minutes ago, MikeO said:

I don't see how you can fully agree with..

"...we need to be moving in the opposite direction [to segregation] imo, the more we separate and build walls (talking to you Mr Trump) and take the, "I'm all right Jack, screw the rest of you" attitude the more dangerous the planet will become."

....and then decide to vote for separation:huh:.

  •  

Not really Mike.  We are leaving the protectionist EU and going out into the big wide world.

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6 minutes ago, johnh said:

Not really Mike.  We are leaving the protectionist EU and going out into the big wide world.

Except we were already a part of it. Now we're just going out clubbing on our own because we think we'll get laid more...

Anyway, not sure where else to put it (maybe the general election thread), but I thought it was interesting:

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:ugcPost:6463822723884867584

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1 hour ago, Matt said:

Except we were already a part of it. Now we're just going out clubbing on our own because we think we'll get laid more...

Anyway, not sure where else to put it (maybe the general election thread), but I thought it was interesting:

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:ugcPost:6463822723884867584

I don't think we are going to take 7+ years to negotiate a trade deal though.

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1 hour ago, johnh said:

Not really Mike.  We are leaving the protectionist EU and going out into the big wide world.

Crazy isn'tt it, leaving the morals of the EU to let this corrupt lot have final say.

I find it hard to believe the public wants us to be ran for the interest of corporations and at the detriment of their own human rights. 

You go on holiday now, if you can afford to, and it's full of Germans and Dutch. We've fell well behind in disposable income thanks to paying high rents and rediculous public transport. Everything cost more here, and to add to that the pound has took a hammering so not only do people have less of it is worth 20% less if they try and spend it else where. 

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Rees-Mogg one of the stalwarts of Brexit now estimates that it will be fifty years before we see the benefits of Brexit, I wonder why he never said that before the vote,

Well John that’s you and me missing the good times and probably 90% of the Brexiteers, and those that do see it if it happens won’t be jumping for joy it’s hard to jump when holding on to a Zimmer frame. 

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1 hour ago, johnh said:

I don't think we are going to take 7+ years to negotiate a trade deal though.

You might actually be right short term, because we'll have to bend over the table and take whatever we can get our hands on out of desperation. Dangers of that are obvious of course.

There's a good reason why complicated issues like trade deals take a long time to sort out, and why the EU became the economy that it has - when you're talking about the changes required with the parties involved, everyone negotiating for whats best for them... it's bloody complicated! The best way to compromised and get the best deal for everyone is to take care, which takes time.

Also, it's another reason why 18 months to pull off this "project" was always a delusion. I hesitate to use that word actually, projects have some sense of clear end goal and organisation throughout.

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8 minutes ago, pete0 said:

If she can convince herself it’s for the good of the country after being against it, convincing herself that she knows what she’s doing when she and those around her are clearly inept should be a breeze. 

Meanwhile, this just in:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46188790

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2 hours ago, Matt said:

Corbyn and his followers will vote against it, DUP will vote against it, Johnson and his followers will vote against it, Fox will resign because he doesn't have a job if UK is in Customs Union...   only question that remains is if there will be a general election or a referendum on the deal?

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Just now, holystove said:

Corbyn and his followers will vote against it, DUP will vote against it, Johnson and his followers will vote against it, Fox will resign because he doesn't have a job if UK is in Customs Union...   only question that remains is if there will be a general election or a referendum on the deal?

I don’t want an election, it’ll become a bigger farce. If a referendum is offered, at least the people will have a chance on the verdict (and I might actually get a vote. Unlikely, but more likely than an election) 

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On 14/11/2018 at 04:19, Matt said:

I don’t want an election, it’ll become a bigger farce. If a referendum is offered, at least the people will have a chance on the verdict (and I might actually get a vote. Unlikely, but more likely than an election) 

True, no clear mandate can come from a GE but in all likelihood another plebiscite will still be a vote on leave vs remain not on the actual deal as its the people who least understand it that likely have the balance of power.

 

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9 hours ago, Chach said:

True, no clear mandate can come from a GE but in all likelihood another plebiscite will still be a vote on leave vs remain not on the actual deal as its the people who least understand it that likely have the balance of power.

 

Can't be on 'leave v remain' as we have already submitted Article 50.   It would have to be 'stay out v rejoin.'  Then the issue would be what terms do we rejoin on?  All academic really as this would take a long time to sort out and the time isn'tt there.

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1 minute ago, johnh said:

Can't be on 'leave v remain' as we have already submitted Article 50.   It would have to be 'stay out v rejoin.'  Then the issue would be what terms do we rejoin on?  All academic really as this would take a long time to sort out and the time isn'ttt there.

We’ve not left yet John, so the choice is carry on “preparing”  vs rescind article 50 application. The latter should be a lot quicker than any other option. 

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5 minutes ago, johnh said:

Can't be on 'leave v remain' as we have already submitted Article 50.   It would have to be 'stay out v rejoin.'  Then the issue would be what terms do we rejoin on?  All academic really as this would take a long time to sort out and the time isn'ttt there.

I didn't mean literally.

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Well this is all a bit of a shambles. 

It feels a little bit like a religious war. All sides claim they are doing it for the country (or their God) and all the while nothing is being achieved. 

Some MPs even plan on voting for the deal as they think its better than no deal even though they know its a terrible deal. With enough weight behind it A50 can be rescinded. These MPs could end up getting it through Parliament out of fear. 

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5 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Well this is all a bit of a shambles. 

It feels a little bit like a religious war. All sides claim they are doing it for the country (or their God) and all the while nothing is being achieved. 

Some MPs even plan on voting for the deal as they think its better than no deal even though they know its a terrible deal. With enough weight behind it A50 can be rescinded. These MPs could end up getting it through Parliament out of fear. 

According to lawyers, the wording of article 50 is incredibly vague (one said “clearly written by diplomats with no law training”), and there’s nothing to suggest it couldn’t be revoked. Even the authour said revoking is not ruled out, so I imagine the wording was deliberately vague so that it could be challenged. 

The downside of revoking would be that’s be hugely embarrassing. However, how much more embarrassing could it already be, or how much worse will it get if the proposed solution gets pushed through? I think we’re erll over the line of damage limitation at this stage. 

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4 hours ago, Matt said:

According to lawyers, the wording of article 50 is incredibly vague (one said “clearly written by diplomats with no law training”), and there’s nothing to suggest it couldn’t be revoked. Even the authour said revoking is not ruled out, so I imagine the wording was deliberately vague so that it could be challenged. 

The downside of revoking would be that’s be hugely embarrassing. However, how much more embarrassing could it already be, or how much worse will it get if the proposed solution gets pushed through? I think we’re erll over the line of damage limitation at this stage. 

Who cares about embarassment at this stage. I would have thought that regardless of what is contained in A50 the EU member states would be asked whether or not they would allow it to be rescinded and I suspect they would. If it isnt rescindable then it just shows how stupid the decision was to enact it without a hell of a lot more work being done before hand. 

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The other bit of this I dont get, is why the Govt (May) has pursued this middle ground stance for so long. Middle ground fails to deliver Brexit (and the perceived benefits) but does more harm than remaining. 

The EU position on the CU, hard border and ECJ will have all been known from the outset. As soon as that position was known, you know your not able to execute an actual break from the EU. Then you should be looking at staying and sacking it all off or getting out completely, preparing for no deal, and not just sitting and seeing. 

Its all madness.

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18 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Who cares about embarassment at this stage. I would have thought that regardless of what is contained in A50 the EU member states would be asked whether or not they would allow it to be rescinded and I suspect they would. If it isnt rescindable then it just shows how stupid the decision was to enact it without a hell of a lot more work being done before hand. 

Sad but true. 

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But we'll get blue passports so that'll be great! The fact that nobody (Rees-Mogg et al aside) won't be able to afford to go anywhere is secondary, we'll have a blue passport gathering dust in a drawer somewhere so that showed you Europe!

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3 hours ago, Bailey said:

Who cares about embarassment at this stage. I would have thought that regardless of what is contained in A50 the EU member states would be asked whether or not they would allow it to be rescinded and I suspect they would. If it isnt rescindable then it just shows how stupid the decision was to enact it without a hell of a lot more work being done before hand. 

I think May has been thinking for sometime that she wishes she hadn’t implemented article 50. 

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Comment stolen from the BBC "have your say" section...

"For months Rees-Mogg has told us how he supports the PM on Brexit. Now he wants a vote of confidence to get rid of the PM.

Having seen how Brexit has progressed, he has changed his mind. He now wants a vote that will change the direction of Brexit.

If it is ok for him to change his mind, and push for a vote to change direction, why is it not right for all of us to have a vote to do the same?"

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in a way I feel both sorry and very irritated by the PM

sorry for her because she was a remain voter  but now has to deal with leaving and sorting out the rebels.

irritated by her because she is fumbling and bungling her way through what should and could have been a very simple product.

 

it is like a big game of cricket  one team (leave) versus another team (remain )  and no matter who wins the wicket gets it right up the arse.  oh and the wicket is the folk who voted in the first place

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8 minutes ago, rubecula said:

in a way I feel both sorry and very irritated by the PM

sorry for her because she was a remain voter  but now has to deal with leaving and sorting out the rebels.

irritated by her because she is fumbling and bungling her way through what should and could have been a very simple product.

 

it is like a big game of cricket  one team (leave) versus another team (remain )  and no matter who wins the wicket gets it right up the arse.  oh and the wicket is the folk who voted in the first place

In what parallel universe was that? Faragia Fantasia probably.

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45 minutes ago, rubecula said:

in a way I feel both sorry and very irritated by the PM

sorry for her because she was a remain voter  but now has to deal with leaving and sorting out the rebels.

irritated by her because she is fumbling and bungling her way through what should and could have been a very simple product.

 

it is like a big game of cricket  one team (leave) versus another team (remain )  and no matter who wins the wicket gets it right up the arse.  oh and the wicket is the folk who voted in the first place

The whole thing has gone horribly wrong for both Remainers and Brexiteers we’ve ended up in a half way house, which wasn’t a choice I remember seeing on my ballot paper. 

What this government has negotiated is a deal that no one I feel wanted or voted for we’ve all been sold down the river where all losers in this process. 

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Forgive me if I’m wrong but I remember that being spelt out by the remain campaigners before the vote, and leave campaigners saying rubbish were get the deal we want because they need us more than we need them. 

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48 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Forgive me if I’m wrong but I remember that being spelt out by the remain campaigners before the vote, and leave campaigners saying rubbish were get the deal we want because they need us more than we need them. 

You’re not wrong mate. 

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