SpartyBlue

14 minutes ago, pete0 said:

So in every position you need to have awareness except centre midfield? Are you serious? It's the position you need it most and why we with 8 better first team players stood still in the league. Centre mid is the crux of any team. Look at the top 6 players in his position and he's miles away. 

Regardless of what you think of Gana, it's a weak point to use our position in the table as part of an argument against him. We were clearly playing at a high level over the last 2 or 3 months of the season and that happened with Idrissa in the team. 

11 minutes ago, London Blue said:

Moshiri hired brands to set up and deliver a coherent transfer and player development system, I don't think he is stupid or arrogant enough to  circumvent it. 

I don't think Brands would tolerate it either.

Personally I don't want him here, I think he is a short term signing who would eat up allot of our wage budget, and I would doubt his ability to fit into the squad we are building.

He’s also been underwhelming on the field the last couple years. If we were going to make a high risk move like this we’d want to be very sure we were getting the goals. 

2 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

not so much any more, look at the NBA.  New York Knicks can't get a marquee signing to save their life.  the NY effect is gone.  Players want to WIN and are going to small teams and cities with no night life to do so.  The players and agents have found the loopholes and are exploiting them so the parity is gone.  Look at the GSW who are in the finals every year for the last what 5 years?  no parity there.

Well, in the case of the Knicks they have mismanaged that franchise for awhile. They are still much more of a draw than Cleveland, Detroit etc.. all things being equal. Also, the nets signed big time free agents and they are now based in Brooklyn so NY still wins. 

I’m speaking more about top to bottom parity. As good as the warriors are (were) they could still get beat on any given night by the worst team in the league. Financially and in every other way the difference between Man City, Bayern, Barca and the worst team in those leagues is far greater. Look no further than what they spend on players. Basketball might have the biggest gap of the 4 major American sports and it’s still not that big. Often the worst teams are just one great draft pick away from completely overhauling their franchise. 

4 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

The clubs can fine them wages if they decide not to come to training.

The American system seems so alien to me, as the European way does to you. Trading comes across as absolutely crazy in that you just tell a player he's going to a new club and they have no say in it (for the most part) and that could mean them moving thousands of miles away. Mad.

Part of the effect of the American system (combined with a salary cap) is that there is a lot more parity.  There are certainly advantages to being a really attractive city like New York or L.A. but any team in the league can be competitive and, with good management/drafting, compete for a title. The gap between the top and the bottom in the premier league is much wider and it’s worse in Germany, Spain, Italy etc..

2 hours ago, Ghoat said:

Differing thoughts on American relegation, for later when I can get thoughts together.

 

But a question on contracts and disputes - 

In American sports if a player is really unhappy with his team on contract, the only real leverage he has is to hold out until a resolution is reached. That can means he refuses to come to mandatory preseason workout and practices, and can even extend into the season as he tries to pressure the team into an improved contact or trade. In that case, the team doesn't have to pay him, and if he has incentives for performance or stats that's his risk. It's almost always for more money from his current team, it's rarely for a trade unless there is a major personality conflict -  there is only one league with 30ish teams who may or may not want him anyway. It's all very public when there is an impasse, because the player is visibly not with the team, as opposed to "reports" from all over the Europe that a player is suddenly being "linked" with various clubs. If he gets a new deal with the club before the season starts, everyone holds hand and hugs and it's forgotten very soon by the team, fans, media etc

Can professional footballers "hold out" and refuse to join training, and if so can teams dock their wages? I don't recall ever seeing it come to that. But as SpartyBlue says, the players/agents have a lot more options and power, especially when they want to force a move.

You’ve hit on the main difference with contracts. As far as I’m aware, a player can sit out and still collect his wages. This, combined with a diminishing club fee as a player’s contract winds down, gives his team very little leverage to force him to play. 

I suppose there already exists a free agency of sorts  in football so I won’t ask about that but what does everyone think of allowing trades? I know there can be player swaps as part of deal but I’m talking about straight swaps where the club has the power. For the most elite athletes in American sports they sometimes have no trade clauses inserted into their contract or a list of places where they would be willing to go. Most, however, are at their whim of their clubs. 

6 hours ago, Matt said:

Re: Geri - First time yes, but when we resigned him for buttons on a permanent contract we did a deal that suited both parties financially too. It was an excellent way to open a relationship. But the relationship has evolved now. Gomes we got for 2/3rds the asking price. Mina we will see if we got him cheep or over paid. 

Again, I’m not knocking our approach. However, my experience in negotiating is to know when to negotiate. Paying €5m more to get this moving, in the current transfer climate, to secure a player and get him integrated sooner is a price worth paying in my eyes and shows a little more flexibility on our side for future negotiations too.  

Point (s) taken. I suppose neither of us can know the nature of Brands relationship with the Barca higher ups. I would hope they see him and us as tough but fair when it comes to transfer dealings. It’s certainly a fine line to walk.

59 minutes ago, Ghoat said:

The squad building year to year, the business side, the player movements/contracts in world football is both fascinating and baffling to an American when first exposed to it. It's just so...foreign. Buying players from other clubs, letting other teams borrow a player for 6 months or a year, competing with teams/leagues in other countries for players, work permits, FFP rules, Cup and European competition, International breaks, relegation/promotion, signing 10 year olds to academies, no domestic league playoffs, away goal tie-breakers... Heck even the salary is expressed per week not per year. There is nothing like any of that in American pro sports to give us a reference point. Even after years of avidly following it, there are constantly things I learn. Or realize there are aspects of the business side or general MO of club operations that I barely have my head around. Simple Yank I guess 

I guess it would be just as baffling if the shoe was on the other foot looking at our pro sports. All our leagues are domestic without international peers/competitors. We have restricted and unrestricted free agents, collective bargaining agreements between the respective league and the player's union and salary caps (besides MLB). All of our games go to extra time if the game ends level. Winning the division only qualifies you for the playoffs to try to win the championship. Division/conference records are more important than overall record (besides MLB) Only MLB has an "academy system" via farm clubs/minors. Otherwise teams build year over year via the amateur draft of collegiate players who have up to 4 years of NCAA eligibility, free agency, or trades between teams - for other players and future draft picks.  

NBA is about 75% American players,  82 game season to determine who makes the play-offs. A 2 round draft, but if it's an American, they have to be out of college eligibility, or at least 19 and one year removed from high school graduation - and declare themselves eligible for the draft. 

NFL is virtually 100% from American colleges with a 16 game season to determine the playoffs. 7 round draft for those who have used their college eligibility. Or have used 3 years - or two years and a redshirt year - and declared themselves eligible. 

MLB is about 70% American players, 162 game season to determine who makes the play-offs. A 40 round amateur draft, and can draft American high school players. But no American college players unless they have finished their 3rd year. Unless they went to a 2 year college, and then they can be drafted any time. And they don't have to declare. If they don't like when or where they are drafted, they can go to/return to college if they have eligibility remaining. 

And in all cases, the player can't negotiate with any other team (without being traded) for a year, then can go back into the draft.  And if they sign with a sports agent they forfeit their remaining college eligibility even if they aren't draft-eligible. And yet all this seems kinda normal to us, and that barely even scratches the surface of collegiate athletics.

And then the poor MLS tries to bridge that huge gap with a hybrid between our professional structures/amateur draft and the way the rest of the footballing world conducts itself. Played at the wrong time of year of course.

As foreign as the business of world "soccer" is initially, at some point it's seemingly much more straightforward. Ish.

Excellent post and relatable for a fellow yank. When I first started watching “soccer” seriously it seemed outlandish that a team had to pay millions to another team for the right to pay a player many more millions. Of course we do have cases where a team might agree to pay a percentage of a players salary as part of a trade but the idea that you had to pay a club to take a player as standard operating procedure seemed very strange. 

The other thing that struck me was just how much power the players have. There are certainly holdouts in American sports but it’s somewhat unusual and it’s generally done to get a better contract with your current team. While it happens occasionally in football, the idea that Lebron James, for instance, would hold out and refuse to play until the Cavaliers agreed to trade him to the Lakers is difficult to imagine. In a sport like baseball it would be unthinkable.

The one feature I loved was relegation. think relegation would be amazing in American sports. We don’t have the structure for it except in baseball and possibly hockey but it would completely eliminate tanking which has become a major issue, particularly in basketball. 

1 hour ago, Matt said:

They’re asking for 5m more, were standing firm so yes, we are undercutting them as we have done for the last several deals.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s great that we’re negotiating hard but this relationship will continue to prosper longer if every now and again we give them a little leeway. I think for €5m after the prices we got Digne, Gomes and, to a lesser extent Geri for, I wouldn’t be haggling in this particular case. Plus, it would potentially get the player here sooner so he’s got more time in preseason. 

You’re only telling half the story here. On Geri, we provided a place for him to develop while he still belonged to Barca so they would have been perfectly happy with how that worked out. Gomes was always going to be moved on, considering how his tenure went there. They would have been happy enough to get him off the books and it’s not as if there were other clubs offering significantly more. Then there is Mina. He may well come good but, as of now, they will feel like we paid far more than he’s worth. If we had gotten the best of Barca on all our dealings with them then I could see paying full price as an acknowledgement of that but that’s pretty clearly not been the case.

5 hours ago, Finn balor said:

He’s having a great tournament so far no goals conceded and playing chile in the quarters. He could be in peak fitness coming back to pre season 

I think we have been a bit spoiled by Digne. Coming to a new team, climate, culture and hitting the ground running like he did was remarkable...and unusual. I’ll give Mina a pass for last year. He also came late in the window if I recall. I would think that both he and Gomes should be markedly improved with a much more stable situation and an idea of what the premier league is about. 

1 hour ago, Finn balor said:

The likes of Ajax is the model we should be after in terms of football. They have a stash of money and keep progressing football players to the point the have that many clubs lining up for their players they don’t have to sell. Obviously marcel will know all about that and his own mantra about things. We have tons of talent coming through. People are taking about Bowen at Hull for £20 mill but we have younger players similar to him already in the wings. 

Thank you. I’ve been an intermittent contributor  around here as you can see by my modest post count but I do appreciate the welcome. Good shout on Ajax. It’s a difficult problem for us. In order to attract the type of players who will allow us to consistently compete with the top 6 and truly bridge the gap we need European football/monster spending. Unfortunately, those types of players are not likely to come to a club who doesn’t play in Europe. I think we are going about it the right way though. We took a bit of a gamble on Richie and it worked out. We were able to steal a guy like Digne who was blocked at Barca. We are not so far away now. If we were to crack the top 6 this season with a new stadium on the horizon I think the floodgates might open. Suddenly, we are a very promising club with a great history who has a lot going for it. Once the perception of us starts to change we should be able to attract a higher caliber of player and consistently put ourselves in the top 6. 

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

Bar Chelsea every team that’s been mentioned are going to improve their squads not just us, you are talking like we are the only ones who are going to buy new players and we are going to then come up against the same teams of last season, just being realistic I can’t see us finishing fourth next season. 

As an American, I'm always struck by this notion that every team needs to be constantly adding to their squad or falling behind. While there is certainly excitement over free agency in American sports the urgency isn't the same. Often just having the same team back and healthy with another year for the younger players to progress is just fine. There is so much turnover in football that I wonder if teams might sometimes be better off getting the guys they have to work better as a unit and develop together rather then bringing in 3,4,5,10 new players each window. We were a top 4 side or so the second half of the season. If you  told me that we had all the same 1st team players back again with one or two additions and some deadwood cleared out I'd be thrilled. I don't always see the need for an arms race, particularly when we are competing against teams with more bullets than us. Just my take, I'm curious what others think.

I'm a little surprised there isn'tt more mention of Digne's performance. He was a problem for them all day. Of course hes been so good consistently that maybe we are just coming to expect it.

4 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

 

I hope there is an option to buy here. I wonder if we agreed to a buyback clause on Mina in exchange for a buy option on Gomes. 

33 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

i like that a lot.  

It’s an exciting looking team for us and offensive minded, to be sure. My concern would be Gueye in that formation. He’s not the type we’d want to be bringing the ball up the field a lot which means that it would fall to Gylfi to come back often. I’m wondering if that would tax him too much over 90 minutes when he’s also supposed to be the engine of our offense. Perhaps the box to box role is exactly what he’s made for, I defer to others there, but I’m going to be curious to see what the plan is in that area early on.

I don't have an angle. I'm pointing out we've got one side of the story and it's plausible that it's deflection from the fact the board failed to deliver on the last 2 signings Koeman has repeatedly asked for. Probably not likely, but it's plausible.

It isn't plausible though. You're admitting as much by saying its probably not likely. It would be pretty stupid to lie about something like this when it could be easily disproven by Chelsea, Ross, his agent etc... and I think we can all agree that, in addition to being upfront with Everton supporters so far, Moshiri isn't stupid. Beyond that, I'm not sure how this would be effective as a deflection even if it was his goal. Those who are upset about the lack of a big name striker and a defender aren't going to forget about it because of this stuff with Ross.

http://twitter.com/bluekippercom/status/903331793641885696

 

I personally take credit for this after my post .

I expect you to head to the Werner thread next.

Would love to know why it seems to take us longer than anyone else

1. It doesn't 2. This guy has been linked for, what, 3-4 days?

Harsh on Williams who is a good defender and adds depth. Siggy adds guile, work rate, passing and delivery. I would argue that all the players we have signed improve us but its difficult to see the finished product until we have a focal point and attack, and the new players have the chance to settle in.

I thought Williams was quality when he first arrived but has looked a touch slow since then and as a result has been a bit clumsy. The Split penalty was a good example. Given the situation at the time, that was as unnecessary a challenge as you're gonna see. Agree with the rest. "It's a project" as Koeman likes to say.

Works hard and can deliver a ball. That's about it.

 

We need someone who can beat a man and play a defence splitting pass, we've been missing that for God knows how long and the closest person we have to that in the squad is leaving.

 

Rooney works hard and can deliver a ball. Did we really need to sign siggy?

 

Im not saying he's average Sparty, just questioning the need for the type of player he is.

Fair enough. I think the jury is still out on the whole team. Normally I give it 10 games or so but it will probably take a bit longer this season to know what we really have. In terms of pace and creativity, I'm looking forward to Bolassie getting fit. He can be a bit of a headless chicken sometimes but he gives us an element we don't seem to have much of at the moment.

Llorente is not the answer we are looking for. Williams has been average, has slightly improved us as a team but more in terms of depth than quality. As for siggy the jury is still out. To me he looks to be a set piece specialist and not much else.

 

Look at the shite, they're almost Southampton 2.0, but at least in most cases they actually sign quality players and it works for them. We would be Swansea 2.0, but with average players aiming for 7th again and again.

Fair enough on Williams but I've not heard many describe Sig as average. At worst he's a hardworking, attacking mid who is world class in deadball situations.

Yeah, it's definitely not a problem to be leaving this signing so late. A team that's already struggling to gel and you bring the focal point striker in after the season has started, who then will also take time to bed in and get used to the system. It's not like goals are important or anything, and that it may have been beneficial to get them in earlier.

Your premise seems to be that we had the option to get a real quality striker in and that we are just dragging our feet. Perhaps that is true for other clubs and maybe it was true for us in the past but I think that's an unfair assumption given the level of activity we've seen under Walsh & Co. As we go for a higher quality of player it's going to be harder for us. We are going to be competing against richer clubs, many of whom can offer CL football. It will require patience from those making the decisions and from our supporters (as unrealistic as that may be). Nobody gets to where we want to get to overnight anymore. I'd rather us not sign a striker this window and wait to find an option that will really improve us than make a panic buy and sign some mediocre option to a long contract which will stifle the growth of guys like DCL and Sandro while not moving us forward. In the grand scheme of things it's far more important to get the right players in then to do it quickly. Whoever we bring in may be here for many years. missing 5 or 10 games is a small matter when weighted against that.

That won't change that we knew Lukaku was leaving for a long time and that it's stupid to leave such an important signing so late, and now we look like we're scrambling around for anyone who'll come.

You're making a lot of assumptions which aren't going to be relevant if we sign a decent option. I will say that it doesn't matter what we "look like" we are doing. Neither of us are privy to what's going on behind the scenes but given our spending this window and the quality we've brought in I think those pulling the strings have earned more faith than you seem to have in them. I think most would agree its been a very positive window given our circumstances. The fact that the new players are going to take some time to gel together and that we aren't immediately going to be a top 4 team doesn't diminish that.

I'm still finding it ridiculous that we've left it this late to get a striker in. We knew Lukaku was leaving a long time ago. If we don't get that striker due to our own ineptitude then you can kiss this season goodbye.

Few things that could be said about this post but why don't we wait until the window closes to see if the sky is falling/not falling debate is necessary.

Skimming their forum it appears he has a year or less under contract so perhaps they would be agreeable after all.

We'd be Swansea 2.0 with this signing

I don't see how their management could possibly let their top 2 scorers go like that but who knows.