holystove

You didn't watch it though did you, there's been no debate. Just people shouting at each other about things they haven't got a clue about.
 

When the EU adopts more democratic practices and becomes more State-like, eurosceptics balk and say they only want a Common Market.  When the EU is run like an international organisation, and everything gets decided by the Member States, eurosceptics say it is not democratic enough.   🤷‍♂️
The debate has become silly as noone will convince anyone of anything anymore; choose your facts, twist them and make your case.   However, to his credit, Johnson has finally ended the debate which is more democratic, the EU or the UK.  It's not the one where a party-appointed leader can suspend Parliament to prevent it having a say on his interpretation of the "will of the people".  Ironically, behaviour like that is grounds for getting your voting rights suspended in the EU council.

It is but that's what happens when our elected representatives abrogate their position and put a decision in the hands of people who have no idea of the consequences involved; Cameron to blame all day long.

When the EU adopts more democratic practices and becomes more State-like, eurosceptics balk and say they only want a Common Market.  When the EU is run like an international organisation, and everything gets decided by the Member States, eurosceptics say it is not democratic enough.   🤷‍♂️
The debate has become silly as noone will convince anyone of anything anymore; choose your facts, twist them and make your case.   However, to his credit, Johnson has finally ended the debate which is more democratic, the EU or the UK.  It's not the one where a party-appointed leader can suspend Parliament to prevent it having a say on his interpretation of the "will of the people".  Ironically, behaviour like that is grounds for getting your voting rights suspended in the EU council.

Well.  This blew up a bit in a way not intended; in essence I was only stating the official UK policy regarding goods (see also why Canada is refusing to roll-over its EU trade agreement for the UK (clue: because the UK will allow its market to be flooded with goods)).  My post might have been a little over-aggressive, although the Marmite thing was meant as a joke (see the smiley).
To be clear:
- I like the UK
- I like the EU
- no-deal Brexit is a disaster for both.  
As Mike (who is correct about my past) indicated I used to back Leave because I was disgusted by the Cameron deal.  I also believed there to be political gain in it for the EU as the UK was a very negative member, while logically the UK would stay in the economic partnership.  As Brexit apparently now means no-deal, I am totally against it and I hope the UK stays. 

Well.  This blew up a bit in a way not intended; in essence I was only stating the official UK policy regarding goods (see also why Canada is refusing to roll-over its EU trade agreement for the UK (clue: because the UK will allow its market to be flooded with goods)).  My post might have been a little over-aggressive, although the Marmite thing was meant as a joke (see the smiley).
To be clear:
- I like the UK
- I like the EU
- no-deal Brexit is a disaster for both.  
As Mike (who is correct about my past) indicated I used to back Leave because I was disgusted by the Cameron deal.  I also believed there to be political gain in it for the EU as the UK was a very negative member, while logically the UK would stay in the economic partnership.  As Brexit apparently now means no-deal, I am totally against it and I hope the UK stays. 

a) He only makes reference to liberals not the left
b) he refers to the liberals as a homogenous group which they are not
c) the phenomenon he is referring to is actually a very small group of people on the authoritarian left, those people are not liberals 
d) Piers claims to be a liberal but he has devolved into a provocateur spewing right wing talking points for attention
e) Piers thinks Twitter is real life which is why he is confused about what is really going on
f) Piers is not a very interesting thinker 
g) Piers is an arseclown

I don't think he's wrong on any of this really. Or at the very least, it's points worth considering.

See that's the fundamental difference here Palf; I've never once seen him wish us ill or want to put obstacles in our way (as if he could?) or to make sure we don't succeed, be really interested if you could find evidence suggesting otherwise because I can remember none.
The EU lawyer thing the mistake I made was that while he's a lawyer who used to work in/have an interest in/study EU law he'd moved on from that (that's my memory of it anyway, he'll correct me if I'm wrong).
Far from what you're suggesting his viewpoint from the start was that while Brexit would be bad for Britain, it would be good for the remaining 27 because of the privileged  status we held in the group so he, as a Belgian, was pleased we were off.
I agree with @Chach that he's been, "pretty much the sole source of dispassionate information since page 1".
I'd never suggest my opinion amounted to "words of wisdom" though, they are simply my opinion.
Actually having a glance back at page one confirms my memory of @holystove.
"Some might remember from my earlier (more active) days as a member of Toffeetalk that I'm a lawyer who specialized in EU law (not anymore) so I'm somewhat opinionated on this issue. The following is just my point of view though (don't shoot me).
If I were a UK citizen (which I'm not) I'd vote IN; being from the continent, I hope the "Leave" camp wins.
The deal Cameron got is a slap in the face of every other EU country. If every individual EU member state got to (re-)negotiate its own terms, EU constitutional law would become meaningless and the idea of an 'ever closer union' would be dead. In fact, I would go as far as to say that if the UK votes to stay in, the rest of the EU should hold a referendum on whether or not the UK should be allowed to stay in with their new deal. Either you fully accept all EU law, or you're out."
The post does pre-date you joining the site by four months so maybe that's how you missed it.

The point he's making is you will have no regulations so you will be able to allow in goods that you need, the EU will still have all the same regulations it had before Brexit so will have to stop goods at the border just as they do with any country that doesn't have a deal with them.
Holystove has been been pretty much the sole source of dispassionate information since page 1, as everyone else has become more and more extreme in their position. Untwist your knickers mate

This is great 😆

Racist c**t. How can anyone vote for him and live with themselves?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49317656

It’s worth a watch. After watching it I think Facebook needs to really be held accountable for its interference, even if it was outside companies they still allowed it to happen on their platform. 
The election of Trump should be void, as should the Brexit referendum. 
Cambridge Analytica admitted that their collected information was so powerful it could be considered “weapons grade”. If you are not a military at war I don’t see how any company needs weapons grade information. 
They also influenced ten, I think it was ten, other elections around the developing world before they were involved in Trump and Brexit. 
The lies and fear they spread to manipulate people to vote, it’s terrifying. I didn’t know hardly any of this stuff had happened, but that’s the idea. They spread hate directly into your Facebook page, so only you see it. Any you aren’t going to talk about it with people who are not like minded, so it all becomes very secretive. 
In the Trump election Cambridge Analytica claimed to have 5000 data points on every American, collected through your Facebook movements and a series of questionnaires that we’re aimed at being fun. Like find out your real personality with this quick test, and it looks like a bit of a joke but really they are gathering intel for an election.
They only had to target three states to win the election, and in reality it came down to needing to swing 70,000 votes in these states to get Trump elected. They filled people’s Facebook with hate and lies and it worked. 
There was an investigation into Cambridge Analytica by the UK government, they declared that there might never be an honest, open and fair election ever again. 
If you watch The Great Hack and the Uncivil War you might come away from them thinking democracy is finished, it’s a scary thought for me. 

Sad and true, my heart goes out to the hundreds of thousands of innocent people who will suffer the consequences of Brexit, especially a no deal Brexit.

Then you haven't been shafted at all. You should need a medical so they know you're safe to be behind the wheel.

Varoufakis, the sequel.

Or this, stage stopped, unfortunate for Alaphilippe but I think he'd have lost it anyway, might even have saved him a podium finish actually. Bernal going to win now.
 

Best hope at the moment is a "no confidence" vote; but ideally it'd need to happen by Thursday.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49004486#comment_135532728
(Just as a matter of interest if you go to the comments below the article and look at them "highest rated" first top is one "Doc Daneeka" aka me)

1/ Leaders of government of all EU member states propose the new Commission president.  Why would you call them unelected?
2/ The EU Parliament has to approve the entire Commission.  This is not a given.
I understand Matt not wanting to argue, because it is sometimes about point of view if you want to describe something as democratic or not.   But to call leaders of government (including your own PM) 'unelected elite' is baffling.

Mistakingly citing a UK rule as your crowning example of EU red-tape and then literally waving a dead fish in the air to rally braying supporters into a patriotic frenzy of outrage is a great early look into what a Boris Johnson premiership will look like.
 
..
 
Were there no bendy bananas available?

Mistakingly citing a UK rule as your crowning example of EU red-tape and then literally waving a dead fish in the air to rally braying supporters into a patriotic frenzy of outrage is a great early look into what a Boris Johnson premiership will look like.
 
..
 
Were there no bendy bananas available?

1/ Leaders of government of all EU member states propose the new Commission president.  Why would you call them unelected?
2/ The EU Parliament has to approve the entire Commission.  This is not a given.
I understand Matt not wanting to argue, because it is sometimes about point of view if you want to describe something as democratic or not.   But to call leaders of government (including your own PM) 'unelected elite' is baffling.

Okay mate lighten up you had a sense of humour by pass operation that was said tongue in cheek, I must apologise for not taking into account that some from other countries may not get my humour and probably some from this as well, but try and stop being so officious you never know you might enjoy having a little laugh now and then 😀

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48839829?fbclid=IwAR253u4uEtU17dSzINKz9DD77eig2DuV23tNx3QMiUjCaSgF-AjJZLk2k_g
Brexiteers turned their backs to the anthem and LibDems wore bollocks to Brexit t-shirts. What an absolute pantomime our country is. 

this is insane