Arteta For England?

[jamiemaher85]

Here's an article that I wrote for ToffeeTalk:

 

"Arteta shouldn't play for England, he's Spanish."

 

(No offence Jamie, just in a funny mood )

Ha. That's about as succinct as you can get really. Good point well made though!

[Lowensda]

I'm gonna upset alot of people but i'd love Mikel to play for England. Mainly because they've become a laughing stock over the long years i've been alive and if i'm honest, the more i watch them, the more disiillusionsed i get. The FA (lets be honest) are a joke at best and the way they deal with some national and club issues are laughable. If a foreign plays for England, so bloody be it.

 

It happens in every other sport, cricket, rugby and even tennis...and we all know how much people/fans complain that we aren't keeeping up with them (Pay, technology) so why not start here? If they want to play for england, fine.

 

If you were general involved in a war for your country and a huge band of amazingly skilled soliders and specialists, wanted to fight on behalf of 'your' country, would you decline their services and tell them to do one because they weren't of the same nationality as the country you were fighting for? Doubt it.

 

In football, we have loyalties yeah but we all have a common enemy...whoever plays against us. So why don't we want to use any of these potential resources to defeat the common enemy? I understand pride and passion, but J's other piece on the England fans and their disgusting behaviour, indicates there isn't much pride left and if there was, its to be found in the wrong places.

 

Arteta for England? Why not.

Edited August 23, 2010 by tenaciousj

[jamiemaher85]

I'm gonna upset alot of people but i'd love Mikel to play for England. Mainly because they've become a laughing stock over the long years i've been alive and if i'm honest, the more i watch them, the more disiillusionsed i get. The FA (lets be honest) are a joke at best and the way they deal with some national and club issues are laughable. If a foreign plays for England, so bloody be it.

 

It happens in every other sport, cricket, rugby and even tennis...and we all know how much people/fans complain that we aren't keeeping up with them (Pay, technology) so why not start here? If they want to play for england, fine.

 

If you were general involved in a war for your country and a huge band of amazingly skilled soliders and specialists, wanted to fight on behalf of 'your' country, would you decline their services and tell them to do one because they weren't of the same nationality as the country you were fighting for? Doubt it.

 

In football, we have loyalties yeah but we all have a common enemy...whoever plays against us. So why don't we want to use any of these potential resources to defeat the common enemy? I understand pride and passion, but J's other piece on the England fans and their disgusting behaviour, indicates there isn't much pride left and if there was, its to be found in the wrong places.

 

Arteta for England? Why not.

 

Very good post. It's a really interesting subject. I for one wouldn't want to see it happen but i'm not going to vehemantly argue against anyone that would like to see it happen.

 

A large and reasoned debate is needed on this subject and it needs to be regulated better than it currently is.

[marcopaulo]

nice article by the way jamie! and good post ten..it is a tricky one but you make a good point about the england team having little pride as it is..will be interestin to see how it unfolds that's for sure

[Romey 1878]

Well it'd be typical of Capello if he does pick Arteta because he said not long ago that he wouldn't pick foreigners for the English national side. He's gone against everything else he's said so why not this?

[Matt]

Well it'd be typical of Capello if he does pick Arteta because he said not long ago that he wouldn't pick foreigners for the English national side. He's gone against everything else he's said so why not this?

but hes a player in form Mark, no chance he would be picked!

 

Nice article J but my eyes hate you now! Disagree with the supporting England thing though...

Edited August 23, 2010 by galacticaracnid

[Romey 1878]

but hes a player in form Mark, no chance he would be picked!

 

 

Good point.

[Bailey]

Great article Jamie and not a bad response from Ten either!

 

Generally, I wouldnt mind a 'foreigner' playing for England, especially when you look at other English sporting teams that are make the most of such rules. However, I personally wouldnt want Mikel to play for England. I have no doubt he is good enough to command a starting berth and I actually think he would suit the team in the way he plays as he is good going forward and he can tackle now. I just dont want him (or to an extent any other Everton player) to be associated with the farse that is the current England team and set up. Capello is a twat and it only take a small mistake (or not even your own mistake in the Daily Mails Jags/Dawson shoddy reporting) to have the national press all over your arse. It also benefits Everton to have Mikel fresh during these international breaks.

 

I would also feel gutted for Arteta if he would end up getting a Spain call up had he not chose England. Its clear to see that its what he wants in his heart, but his head is telling him that its not likely. I would love him to get that Spain call up, but I would be slightly disappointed if it was with England.

[Noddy]

Again, is Arteta actually eligible per FIFA's statutes governing eligibility?

 

Article 18, dealing with change of association states:

Article 18

 

1. If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new nationality, or if a Player is eligible to play for several representative teams due to nationality, he may, only once, request to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the Association of another country of which he holds nationality, subject to the following conditions:

 

(a) He has not played a match (either in full or in part) in an official competition at “A” international level for his current Association, and at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition for his current Association, he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he wishes to play.

The bit I've emboldened seems to suggest that in order to be eligible, Arteta must have held the relevant nationality (in this case British) when he appeared for the Spanish FA underage teams and I can't imagine that that was the case.

Edited August 24, 2010 by Noddy

[Louis]

That's what I originally thought and I've seen nothing to suggest otherwise other than media reports. I think full or partial must refer the duration of play rather than international level of play (u16, u21 etc.) "A" interntional means a FIFA organised match. For example a player can play in an international friendly or even some international competitions at 'full' international level but can change nationality.

 

There was a guy whose name escapes me who had been playing for Mexico for years and switched to USA this year.

 

An age limit was removed in June 2009

 

Change of association (art. 18 of the Regulations Governing the Application of the FIFA Statutes)

58% of the Congress members approved an amendment to the current article. So far, players eligible to change associations in order to play for another national team could only do so until their 21st birthday. The Congress has now decided to lift this age limit, but has maintained all the other provisions of art. 18.

[marcopaulo]

edgar castillo..played 4 times for mexico then changed

 

Under a recent change in FIFA regulations, Castillo became eligible to play for the United States because he had yet to make an appearance for Mexico in a competitive match at senior level, as opposed to an international friendly or an A-grade international.[

[Noddy]

That's what I originally thought and I've seen nothing to suggest otherwise other than media reports. I think full or partial must refer the duration of play rather than international level of play (u16, u21 etc.) "A" interntional means a FIFA organised match. For example a player can play in an international friendly or even some international competitions at 'full' international level but can change nationality.

Like you, I too have only heard of this idea [Arteta for England] being entertained in the media and it could very well be another case of "chinese whispers" and lazy journalism. Interestingly, the news story was also published on FIFA's website, but I doubt this is an indication of official advocation.

 

The "A" international in an official competition refers to senior caps in competitions such as the World Cup and European Championships (along with their respective qualification rounds). I suspect that, unlike Arteta, the likes of Castillo and Jones had held dual nationality prior to their first appearances for their original FAs. I remember reading an interview with Castillo, who talked of attending American training camps when he was younger and waited for the call up. When one was not forthcoming he decided to throw his lot in with Mexico, but mentioned that, despite wearing the green of Mexico several times in friendly games, he felt it was 'right' for him to play for the USA.

[Formby]

Not sure I understand all the objection (in the media et al) for Arteta’s inclusion. Club football is dominated by foreign imports and, with the odd exceptions, have proved they’re as committed as the home-grown ‘talent’. If Arteta wants to play and there is a provision that allows him to play, then it seems daft to overlook him. If there aren’t any English players that do the job as well, that’s not Arteta’s fault. If it was Messi or Ronaldo we were talking about, would people really say, er, no, we don’t want you. When I hear journalists and ‘pundits’ complaining that he’s not English and questioning his loyalty to the country, I kind of wonder how far the world has moved on. Will England really rid itself of the suspicion of Johnny Foreigner? Do we really want to be the Athletic Bilbao of the international game? In simple terms, if there is a chance he can play and he wants to play, then surely the only argument against his inclusion is , is he good enough? Would England benefit from that kind of midfielder? Unquestionably, I think, yes. On a side note, do these ‘pundits’ realise the number of foreigners who laid down their life for England in WWII, people who were born in far flung corners of the Empire (Canadians, Czechs, Poles, Indians). Is it really such a stretch to imagine a Spanish born player who has settled here wouldn’t give 110% on a football field? Shameful thinking (imho).

[Bill]

Good post formby, and its a yes from me, i think he should be allowed to play.

[jamiemaher85]

Good post Formby. The problem I have with the whole thing is that Arteta really doesn't have any ties to us other than a silly passport law. He's also represented his country at all youth levels up to U21 and for me if you have done this then you shouldn't be allowed to be considered for another country.

 

Call me an old tradionalist but I think that there should much stronger ties needed to represent a country at International level than a 5 year residency. There's no pride in that. Also in regards to Arteta at 28 years old he doesn't offer us long term solutions or viability. He'll make one tournement at best and after a World Cup in which we bemoaned the lack of youth in our team then is bringing in a 28 year old foreigner the best option? We need to instill some more pride into our international team, getting rid of some of the old boys who don't pull there weight is one thing we need to do. Repatriating foreigners isn't.

[Bill]

Good arguments Jamie but i'm only talking theoretically.

But if the FA go ahead and appoint a foreign manager to run the English football team, i dont see how they can get all stroppy if he selects an eligible foreigner to play.

[jamiemaher85]

It's a really interesting subject to debate as there is no clear answer, also it's a subject in which everyone can fairly easily come up with an opnion which therefore opens the debate up a little bit more.

 

With the management aspect, I can just about cope with that but on the pitch is should be Englishmen in my opinion.

 

At the end of the day if, for example, Arteta was selected then i'll support him when he gets onto the pitch, however I won't support the decision to do so. I'll always get behind my team, be that Everton or England, and will try and go along with the decisions made for better or worse. But up until the moment that the selection decision over a foreign national player is made then i'm firmly in the camp of only nationals of that country should be eligible and should be selected.

[Matt]

national squad. says it all really. Ive been reading this and taking my time, its a crackin debate but it is clear to me. If you are born in the country, youre eligible to play for that country and that country only. Parentage in my mind is stretching it but i suppose acceptable, for example nationals living abroad like myself.

 

I really dont like the idea of having a foreigner as a manager either and dont think that should enter into 'for having foreigners' part of the debate. it should be an englishman leading a team of englishmen for england. not someone leading some people who wear the england shirt. If there arent any englishmen good enough, well tough shit we suffer a while longer and try to improve. What is the point in having international competition if players from other countries play for england? What would be the difference between club football and international football except names of clubs? I say clubs as calling them countries wouldnt really mean much if players in the squad werent from a mix of nationalities.

 

Im talking here about exaggerated examples i know, and you may say its only 1 player here or another there, but it would escalate over time. And would i feel the same if it was Ronaldo or Messi? Damn straight, theyre not english. I just married an american girl so i can go through the process of applying for a green card and eventually citizenship if i want to. Will i? Well, green card maybe but im not getting an american passport. Im english, for better for worse. I even left england to get away from it (well, Manchester really, still love going home and there were more opportunities abroad). Im not even that patriotic (though i understand and have a huge respect for those who are) but you represent or support your country, the country that raised you, and thats that.

 

In Artetas case, he is unlucky its that simple. Unlucky because he was raised in a time where Spain have a plethora of talent in the same position. Fabregas cant even start for Spain for gods sake! its harsh, but true....

[Everton_Worshiper]

Call me an old tradionalist but I think that there should much stronger ties needed to represent a country at International level than a 5 year residency. There's no pride in that.

 

Sums it up nicely IMO.

[Louis]

Does anyone remember when a few years ago Togo appointed a Brazilian coach and the coach started choosing Brazilians to play for Togo and gave them citizenship to improve the squad?

[Noddy]

national squad. says it all really. Ive been reading this and taking my time, its a crackin debate but it is clear to me. If you are born in the country, youre eligible to play for that country and that country only. Parentage in my mind is stretching it but i suppose acceptable, for example nationals living abroad like myself.

I understand your point, but I can't say I agree with you. As it stands, FIFA has decreed that national team eligibility is defined by nationality, something which is not necessarily dependent on birth in a nation and I agree with that principle. If players like Arteta* satisfy FIFA's current statutes, then I can't say I have a problem.

 

*I am not entirely sure about Arteta's actual eligibility for England.

[Romey 1878]

http://www.epltalk.com/capello-and-the-fa-need-to-give-mikel-arteta-a-chance-to-play-for-england/23559?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+EPLTalk+%28EPL+Talk%29

[marcopaulo]

It’s not about players singing a national anthem as Keane mentions. Most of the England players don’t sing their national anthem anyway.

 

the writer is spot on cos that is horse shit what keane is saying..i have never seen rooney sing a national anthem but does anyone question how patriotic he is?

[Wall Writer]

Not sure if this has been posted/seen already but Roy Keane's comments at the end are quality. (Work that one out!)

http://www.skysports.com/video/inline/0,26691,16477_6331834,00.html

[MikeO]

Not sure if this has been posted/seen already but Roy Keane's comments at the end are quality. (Work that one out!)

http://www.skysports.com/video/inline/0,26691,16477_6331834,00.html

That's me decided then....if Keane's against it then I'm all for it.

 

He was so passionate about his country that he buggered off home in the middle of a WC didn't he?

[marcopaulo]

man i'd love to thump him..summat about his face really grates me..i like bruce's reaction though "i can get him a game at sunderland if he wants"

[Noddy]

He was so passionate about his country that he buggered off home in the middle of a WC didn't he?

I'm in the Keane camp on the Saipan incident. There is no question over Keane's passion to play for Ireland, that's why he was captain. He dragged us to the World Cup in 2002. It's the FAI that Keane has a problem with.

 

I enjoy his comments here:

 

I'm not sure about his comments on the 'passion' of players becoming eligible through residence, although I've heard some people, including many on here advocating the same view.

Edited August 25, 2010 by Noddy

[MikeO]

I'm in the Keane camp on the Saipan incident.

Keane is borderline psychotic, at the very least he has a serious personality disorder, bit of a Messiah complex I think.

 

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the incident his reaction was infantile, like a kid in the playground taking his ball home. If you're passionate about your country and unhappy about the facilities and preparations they had (which I believe was the source of the argument) and consequently the chance of your country doing well you don't, if you're a rational human being, make things worse by leaving.

[Noddy]

Keane is borderline psychotic, at the very least he has a serious personality disorder, bit of a Messiah complex I think.

 

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the incident his reaction was infantile, like a kid in the playground taking his ball home. If you're passionate about your country and unhappy about the facilities and preparations they had (which I believe was the source of the argument) and consequently the chance of your country doing well you don't, if you're a rational human being, make things worse by leaving.

I won't disagree with your analysis that Keane's personality is unusual. However, I wouldn't brand him psychotic or anything along those lines. He's a tenacious, vociferous character, there's no doubt about it, but he's not irrational (his signing of Paul McShane excepted!). He expects the best from himself and others around him. The problem, it seems, is that Keane's expectations of other individuals may be simply too high.

 

The incident in Saipan was the result of many factors, not just Keane's outrage over the preparation (which was diabolical). Himself and Mick McCarthy had, to put it mildly, a history of disagreement and among other things, Keane deemed it an affront when McCarthy questioned his passion for Ireland. On one occasion, it's said that McCarthy even accused him of feigning injury to avoid playing. The affair was an absolute mess and it's hard to know the exact story, but from my understanding of it all, Keane's gripe was legitimate. It didn't help matters when McCarthy ostracised him. Of course, I would have preferred if Keane had persevered in spite of it all as he would have undoubtedly improved our chances (I think we would have beaten Spain with him in the team), but I won't fault him for demanding the best.

[Ian C]

You're in the Keane camp? Jaysus mate just you, Keane and Keane's dogs in that camp nowadays. Keane's legacy has been destroyed in Ireland. Mick McCarthy is far more popular nowadays IMO.