Matt Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 12 confirmed dead. Shouting "we've avenged mohammed" after they'd killed them. Got nothing to do with Islam, 2 pricks using it as an excuse to be monsters Horrible news... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Does this have anything to do with Muslims? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Oh yes, Muslims again. Nothing to fear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Oh yes, Muslims again. Nothing to fear. A tiny proportion of them are nutjobs and there are extremist loonies in every religion. Muslims to the fore at the moment sadly (saddest of all for the 99.9% of them who abhor this shit but have to take the blame for it from reactionary idiots who can't see beyond Daily Express headlines). Matt and ForEverton2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Oh yes, Muslims again. Nothing to fear. are you serious?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formby Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Richard Dawkins says 'Religions are NOT equally violent' after attack... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/07/richard-dawkins-religion-charlie-hebdo_n_6430724.html?cps=gravity_2677_8973902419527900446 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Islam is not a peaceful religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Richard Dawkins says 'Religions are NOT equally violent' after attack... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/07/richard-dawkins-religion-charlie-hebdo_n_6430724.html?cps=gravity_2677_8973902419527900446 As I said earlier, Muslims are more guilty at this point in history; you don't have to go back that long to when it was the Christians or whoever else, be they religious or secular groups. The point is labelling it as a "Muslim" problem when it's only being perpetrated by a tiny minority; it's like suggesting all men are rapists because a few of them commit rape. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) Richard Dawkins says 'Religions are NOT equally violent' after attack... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/07/richard-dawkins-religion-charlie-hebdo_n_6430724.html?cps=gravity_2677_8973902419527900446 Some useful idiot will claim it had nothing to do with religion. But an organised group needs an extreme motivation – faith, in something like a god or nazism. There is a very, very clear distinction between faith and religion, even if they often go hand in hand. Some useful idiot has made stupid comments and contradicted himself... Islam is not a peaceful religion. On the whole it is. If you want to look a religion with a dodgy history, checkout Christianity. I don't want to send this thread down the pan though, if you want to debate religion lets move it elsewhere and keep this thread to its intended purpose. Edited January 8, 2015 by Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Islam is not a peaceful religion. Neither is Christianity if you choose to take the Old Testament seriously. The Qoran (which I've not had the opportunity to study, possibly you have) can obviously be interpreted as having justification for modern day evil in it, but it'd have to be pretty nasty to rival the Bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 I don't think you'd be so forgiving if you were in the Middle East atm. It's a barbaric religion and that's not just the nut jobs. Their ideology is warped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 I don't think you'd be so forgiving if you were in the Middle East atm. It's a barbaric religion and that's not just the nut jobs. Their ideology is warped. The ideology of a tiny minority is warped, as is (while we're in the region) the ideology of a (probably larger) minority of Israelis. Islam is a million miles from a barbaric religion, you're just plain ill-informed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Just to respect the other thread, I've moved the Islam talk here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Their ideology is warped. This is their basic ideology, can you highlight the warped parts for me.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Pillars_of_Islam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 The ideology of a tiny minority is warped, as is (while we're in the region) the ideology of a (probably larger) minority of Israelis. Islam is a million miles from a barbaric religion, you're just plain ill-informed. How the hell am I ill informed. Public executions by stoning, hanging, beheadings. Cutting limbs off... All performed by governments of Islam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 This thread is not going to go well. It's why I stay away from all religious debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 This thread is not going to go well. It's why I stay away from all religious debate. Agnostic :shaking fist:. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 This thread is not going to go well. It's why I stay away from all religious debate.Agreed..argue enough with my dad over it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 How the hell am I ill informed. Public executions by stoning, hanging, beheadings. Cutting limbs off... All performed by governments of Islam. All performed by governments of people, China execute far and away more people than any other country, the US does OK itself, North Korea? God knows how many. None of them are Muslim. Anyway that's all separate from the "ideology" which is what you said was warped. Here it is again... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Pillars_of_Islam Point out the warped bits for me. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Agnostic :shaking fist:. I'm quite happy with that label! I just think that the majority of people have very strong opinions when it comes to religion and a discussion about it usually descends into chaos. Personally, I'm not a believer in any sense and I'm happy for all religions to exist as long as no one rams their religion down my throat. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 I don't think you'd be so forgiving if you were in the Middle East atm. It's a barbaric religion and that's not just the nut jobs. Their ideology is warped. You do know that Islam isn't only in the Middle East right? If its barbaric, that means nearly 25% of the worlds population are evil murderous bastards? Have a gander at this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzusSqcotDw ForEverton2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) All performed by governments of people, China execute far and away more people than any other country, the US does OK itself, North Korea? God knows how many. None of them are Muslim. Anyway that's all separate from the "ideology" which is what you said was warped. Here it is again... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Pillars_of_Islam Point out the warped bits for me. This is their ideology: http://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_law And yes parts of it are warped. Example - cutting off hands for theft. Islamic executions are far more barbaric than American executions it's not even comparable. I don't know about China but are you seriously trying to use North Korea in this debate? That rational 21st century country? Edited January 8, 2015 by MC11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 This is their ideology: http://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_law And yes parts of it are warped. Example - cutting off hands for theft. Islamic executions are far more barbaric than American executions it's not even comparable. I don't know about China but are you seriously trying to use North Korea in this debate? That rational 21st century country? 1 execution is more barbaric than the other? I know what you mean but to me its all barbaric. Mikes point, and the point in the video, is that people are violent. Religious texts that are thousands of years old will of course contain violent acts, because of the times they were written in. Christianity and Judaism have some horrific examples of violence. All of texts will be perceived differently by different people and if you're a violent person, you'll concentrate on the violent parts. I keep a quote by Gandi in my sig for a reason, and this debate is a perfect example of why. A couple of murderous thugs want to justify their actions with an ancient text. That does not mean all of Islam is barbaric and evil, it means the monsters who perform the crimes are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Also, you are quoting Shia Islam, representing 15% of Islam who are in a concentrated part of the world.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formby Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Like it or not, Islamic terrorism has everything to do with Islam, even though it may be denounced by 99.99% of Muslims. This is a very interesting article on moderate Islam and the problems it faces. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-open-letter-to-moderat_b_5930764.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) Like it or not, Islamic terrorism has everything to do with Islam, even though it may be denounced by 99.99% of Muslims. This is a very interesting article on moderate Islam and the problems it faces. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-open-letter-to-moderat_b_5930764.html Its used as an excuse, that's the only link I see. Its people who perform the actions. Edited January 8, 2015 by Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formby Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Its used as an excuse, that's the only link I see. Its people who perform the actions. Yes, but guided by what they believe to be the tenets of Islam. What they believe is Islam to them, though it may not be to the vast majority of others, including Sunni, Shia, Wahabi and Sufi. It may sound like a death cult (as Tony Abbott branded it) to most, and a warped version of Islam, but if you sat them down, they would tell you that their reading of the Qur'an is the right reading and others' versions are incorrect. I don't think you can remove Islam from the equation. It has to be tackled head on - and that's probably best done by moderate Muslims, as the article suggests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Yes, but guided by what they believe to be the tenets of Islam. What they believe is Islam to them, though it may not be to the vast majority of others, including Sunni, Shia, Wahabi and Sufi. It may sound like a death cult (as Tony Abbott branded it) to most, and a warped version of Islam, but if you sat them down, they would tell you that their reading of the Qur'an is the right reading and others' versions are incorrect. I don't think you can remove Islam from the equation. It has to be tackled head on - and that's probably best done by moderate Muslims, as the article suggests. Very true. But when you get people suggesting that Islam is by definition a religion of violence those very moderate Muslims are likely to get quite cross aren't they? Which is likely to turn more of them to extremism. Criticising peace-loving people (and their religion) and lumping them in with the terrorists is totally counter-productive. When I was fourteen the IRA blew up two pubs in my home town killing several people but I didn't come to the conclusion that all Irish people were murderers. You don't measure Christians by the actions of the Spanish Inquisition or the Ku Klux Klan, so you shouldn't define Muslims by the actions of the few (I know you're not formby but a lot of people are, not specifically on here but country/worldwide). Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 looking at the way this thread is so argumentative all I can say is "thank god I am an athiest ... bless you all" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 looking at the way this thread is so argumentative all I can say is "thank god I am an athiest ... bless you all" Have you caught up on the Lukaku thread Rubes? This is a love-in. (speaking as a fellow atheist) rubecula 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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