Formby Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 Very true. But when you get people suggesting that Islam is by definition a religion of violence those very moderate Muslims are likely to get quite cross aren't they? Which is likely to turn more of them to extremism. Criticising peace-loving people (and their religion) and lumping them in with the terrorists is totally counter-productive. When I was fourteen the IRA blew up two pubs in my home town killing several people but I didn't come to the conclusion that all Irish people were murderers. You don't measure Christians by the actions of the Spanish Inquisition or the Ku Klux Klan, so you shouldn't define Muslims by the actions of the few (I know you're not formby but a lot of people are, not specifically on here but country/worldwide). The problem is, Mike, that Islamic scholars can't even agree on how to reconcile the 'peace verses' and the 'swords verses' in the Qur'an - the idea of parts of it being a religion of violence in the same way the Old Testament is, is not without foundation (see Dawkins, Hitchens et al for a long discourse on this). And, whether it is or not should not prevent people from saying so, if that is their belief. You can't get quite cross and turn to extremism because someone says something bad about your religion, particularly as one's own scholars can't agree on its interpretation. The idiots who blame all Muslims for the actions of a few are just that - idiots (and dangerous ones, too) - but that doesn't mean there aren't some very fundamental (if you'll forgive the term) questions that Islam (and maybe all religions) has to ask itself. Matt and MikeO 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 Norwegian Anders Breivik went nuts on an island a few years ago in the name of christanity. Are all christians nut jobs? Not long ago the IRA were active in the name of religion. Is the pope a barbarian? Islam has nothing to do with this. Anyone who thinks so is stupid, unintelligent, naive and missinformed. Simple as. MC11 and Matt 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) Norwegian Anders Breivik went nuts on an island a few years ago in the name of christanity. Are all christians nut jobs? Not long ago the IRA were active in the name of religion. Is the pope a barbarian? Islam has nothing to do with this. Anyone who thinks so is stupid, unintelligent, naive and missinformed. Simple as. Anyone who says Islam has nothing to do this is stupid, unintelligent, naive and misinformed. Simple as. The killings were in the name of muhammed it has everything to do with it! "Allahu Akbar" was shouted after the shots. What a pleb Edited January 9, 2015 by MC11 Peter H, MikeO, Matt and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 Anyone who says Islam has nothing to do this is stupid, unintelligent, naive and misinformed. Simple as. The killings were in the name of muhammed it has everything to do with it! "Allahu Akbar" was shouted after the shots. What a pleb Do you drive a car MC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 Do you drive a car MC? I drive a van. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 I drive a van. And it requires fuel, would you like to know how many people have been involved in wars over oil? Does that mean we should ban fuel? Wars have been going on since the beginning of time. Primarily it was over territory, resources, water. anything that equates to political power. There is not one religion that demands that people kill another human being in the name of. Nor is there any reason that a human should need to kill over oil, water, land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 And it requires fuel, would you like to know how many people have been involved in wars over oil? Does that mean we should ban fuel? Wars have been going on since the beginning of time. Primarily it was over territory, resources, water. anything that equates to political power. There is not one religion that demands that people kill another human being in the name of. Nor is there any reason that a human should need to kill over oil, water, land. Get out more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 Get out more. Stay in and read a book, don't watch "Team America" as your means of educating yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 Anyone who says Islam has nothing to do this is stupid, unintelligent, naive and misinformed. Simple as. The killings were in the name of muhammed it has everything to do with it! "Allahu Akbar" was shouted after the shots. What a pleb So the many many thousands of muslims who condemed this are outweighed by the 2 idiots shouting Allahu Akbar? So if an idiot kills 12 shouting Praise the tooth fairy we should blame teeth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 Get out more. Another well thought out argument, well done. To say it has nothing to do with it I guess is too general. It is being used as a reason, but the religion itself is not to blame. Just because they assailants praise their God has nothing to do with the religion itself, its all to do with 2 nutters using the religion to justify their actions. Peters example is spot on. Anders Breivik killed 8 with a bomb and 69 with guns after 9 years of planning, because of his hatred of Islam and Zionism. He is a Christian who believes the Methodist church has lost its way. Does that mean anyone who is Christian subscribes to violent religion? Or is he one lunatic using religion to justify his actions? Did you even watch the video I posted? It explains things very well. Theres also this; http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/terrorism-in-europe/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 Have you caught up on the Lukaku thread Rubes? This is a love-in. (speaking as a fellow atheist) Jaysus yes. I have been laughing up my sleeve at the comments. And I was touted as being the least knowledgeable for the year LOL Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 Jaysus yes. I have been laughing up my sleeve at the comments. And I was touted as being the least knowledgeable for the year LOL Sorry about that Rubes, all in good jest. rubecula 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formby Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 Norwegian Anders Breivik went nuts on an island a few years ago in the name of christanity. Are all christians nut jobs? Not long ago the IRA were active in the name of religion. Is the pope a barbarian? Islam has nothing to do with this. Anyone who thinks so is stupid, unintelligent, naive and missinformed. Simple as. Surely the point you're overlooking here is that the events in Paris are not a one-off (unlike Breivik). Also, although Northern Ireland was riven with sectarianism, the republican ideology was non-sectarian. 'Islamic' terrorism (even if you personally believe it's not the representative kind of Islam you want to hear about) is responsible for thousands of atrocities round the world, as shown here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-30080914 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 What was Stalin and Hitler's religion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formby Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 What was Stalin and Hitler's religion? No expert on Stalin or Hitler, but I think both had religious upbringings. Others may know more. https://richarddawkins.net/2014/10/the-atheist-atrocities-fallacy-hitler-stalin-pol-pot/ Or this: Josef Stalin’s “very religious” mother named him after St. Joseph, and wanted him to become a priest. Stalin himself supposedly claimed that his father had been a priest, and he was purportedly “damaged by violence” while being “raised in a poor priest-ridden household.” As a youth, Stalin spent five years in a Greek Orthodox seminary, after which he purportedly renounced his religion. In his later years, Stalin apparently embraced Christianity once more. As Stalin biographer Edvard Radinsky remarks, “During his mysterious retreat [of June 1941] the ex-seminarist had decided to involve the aid of the God he had rejected.” Radinsky likewise chronicles a number of religious comrades in Stalin’s immediate circle. It is evident that, whether for good or bad, religion played a significant role in Stalin’s life. Adolf Hitler was raised a Catholic, and in a speech in 1922 he remarked, “My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter…” In his autobiography Mein Kampf (1.2), Hitler stated: Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord. Throughout his life, Hitler invoked God and “the Lord,” demonstrating his religious, not atheistic, nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 They really weren't religious at all. Read into it. They utilized religion when it suited in terms of political influence, ultimately they were materialistic, evil, self serving dictators full of hatred. Religion has been used as a vehicle for people with agendas. Ultimately it's not religion that is the issue, it's people who are evil. Money, power, materials is the biggest cause of war bar none. Religion is a convenient scapegoat goat. Especially for all the Richard Dawkins followers - a non religion creates his own following all about nothing. Incredible. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formby Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 But if religion is a man-made construct, it is laced with all of man's imperfections (good and evil). Therefore, it can be held directly accountable. I don't think you can reasonably say that the Catholic Church has an unblemished record throughout its history, or that the Protestant Catholic schisms, or those of Sunni and Shia Islam, were not because of religion. Interesting that you ascribe religious terminology to Dawkins - his followers - despite saying it is a non religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 But if religion is a man-made construct, it is laced with all of man's imperfections (good and evil). Therefore, it can be held directly accountable. I don't think you can reasonably say that the Catholic Church has an unblemished record throughout its history, or that the Protestant Catholic schisms, or those of Sunni and Shia Islam, were not because of religion. Interesting that you ascribe religious terminology to Dawkins - his followers - despite saying it is a non religion. What Dawkins does is quite insulting to be honest. I'm a Roman Catholic with a science background so I'm very fact and evidence based. What I don't like about Dawkins is the approach he takes. There is so much that science can't explain. Most recently around consciousness when someone has "died" and been revived. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11144442/First-hint-of-life-after-death-in-biggest-ever-scientific-study.html To many people this doesn't need to be proved or disproved. Nearly every family has a story where they can give a second hand story of a near death experience that defies any logic. I know of someone who was an atheist who was married to a Christian who had a heart attack and was dead for several minutes, his whole approach after this changed. He became extremely religious and a very content person. I'm not opposed to anyone's beliefs i am respectful of people's choices, but I am offended by someone questioning mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 I don't 'belong' to any religion. Nor do I 'believe' in any God. But I do find the topic interesting...and massively controversial. The thing I want to say is that I have also fell into the UK/Western World media frenzy that is tainting Islam as a purely sadistic murderous terrorism driven religion. Then you have to remember that for the mainstream media to exist they need us to pay attention to what they say/write...which means stories that grab our attention. Media preys on our ignorance. We can't deny that there is a sector of Islam being used as a vehicle (excuse!) to terrorise western 'democracy'. The same as there has been a sector of Christianity used as a vehicle to paedophilia. And the rest. Working in the world of Pharmacy for the past 5 years, I have been lucky enough to work with Pharmacists from many different cultural back grounds. I enjoy hearing their stories and having my eyes opened. This includes Muslims and Islam. These people are as normal as you and I. Normal every day people. They are amongst the most down to earth, well spoken people I have come across. Committed to their religion, they kindly ask permission to pray a few times in the day. They don't moan or whinge or let performance slip during Ramadan, which I would torturous. Me and the pharmacist I had on Tuesday, Ismail, spent a lot of time talking about Islam. Well, more me asking questions. He explained to me how these extremists have completely misinterpreted selected parts of the Qur'an. It was a deep and informative conversation. Anybody who thinks that Islam sole purpose is to cause violence, hatred and terrorism needs to go and find a real Muslim and listen to what they say. I used to think religion caused all sorts of problems. Now I realise it's just an excuse used by people with nothing but bad intentions. I used to think that if we had no religion, we would have no problems. Now I think if we had no people we would have no problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30762153 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 There is so much that science can't explain. I'm not opposed to anyone's beliefs i am respectful of people's choices, but I am offended by someone questioning mine. There is so much that science cant explain... yet Im not opposed to anyones beliefs either but what I really hate is others pushing their beliefs on me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 http://zerobs.net/media/Jesus-vs-Horus.jpeg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 There is so much that science cant explain... yet Im not opposed to anyones beliefs either but what I really hate is others pushing their beliefs on me. Pushing beliefs or pushing non beliefs -- both same thing. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 Pushing beliefs or pushing non beliefs -- both same thing. Sure, I buy that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) Sure, I buy that.It's funny isn't it. Why do believers need to push what they believe onto non believers and vice versa? Personally I think it's insecurity. What happened when people believed the world was flat? There was not enough technology to prove or disprove but you can bet your bottom dollar there was some right humdinger debates. It's all about "buy in", the more you state something the more you need to do to prove you are right. But when there is no tangible proof it is exhausting and comes down to belief/faith. Did it take people to see pictures from out of space to believe the world is round? The people who said it wouldn't be possible to put man on the moon would be the ones who look at the shadow of the flag and shout "fake!, man didn't land on the moon". If they weren't so arrogant and vocal in their belief that landing a shuttle on the moon was impossible then maybe they could have enjoyed a great moment rather than feel they need to invalidate it. That's why religion or non religion should be personal and respected. Edited January 11, 2015 by Hafnia Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 It's funny isn't it. Why do believers need to push what they believe onto non believers and vice versa? Personally I think it's insecurity. What happened when people believed the world was flat? There was not enough technology to prove or disprove but you can bet your bottom dollar there was some right humdinger debates. It's all about "buy in", the more you state something the more you need to do to prove you are right. But when there is no tangible proof it is exhausting and comes down to belief/faith. Did it take people to see pictures from out of space to believe the world is round? The people who said it wouldn't be possible to put man on the moon would be the ones who look at the shadow of the flag and shout "fake!, man didn't land on the moon". If they weren't so arrogant and vocal in their belief that landing a shuttle on the moon was impossible then maybe they could have enjoyed a great moment rather than feel they need to invalidate it. That's why religion or non religion should be personal and respected. This could all be applied to the Lukaku thread . Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 This could all be applied to the Lukaku thread . Too predictable!!!! Fortunately I had the stats there, it's just those ones who think Roms bad games were filmed in a tv studio and weren't real! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 Too predictable!!!! Fortunately I had the stats there, it's just those ones who think Roms bad games were filmed in a tv studio and weren't real!makes me laugh you criticise others using stats because they can be misleading but then use them yourself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 makes me laugh you criticise others using stats because they can be misleading but then use them yourself I analyse them in their entirety Matt, that's my job. Tip. Anyone who quotes a percentage "only" figure, look at the components, guaranteed they are creating spin. Governments and elstone love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 I analyse them in their entirety Matt, that's my job. Tip. Anyone who quotes a percentage "only" figure, look at the components, guaranteed they are creating spin. Governments and elstone love it. as do I, it's my job too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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