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Referendum  

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  1. 1. In or out?

    • Stay in
      26
    • Leave
      24


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2 hours ago, Bailey said:

Latest rumour is that the commons vote will be put back until the New Year. 

If true then there should be a vote of no confidence in the government, she needs sacking she's already caused untold damage.

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57 minutes ago, MikeO said:

But who is the credible replacement? 

F'cked if I know.

As a Party Labour are a credible replacement, whether or not you like Corbyn shouldn't really be the issue, would you rather have Johnson or Rees-Mogg because we are going to get one of them in the next 4-6 months.

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48 minutes ago, Palfy said:

As a Party Labour are a credible replacement, whether or not you like Corbyn shouldn't really be the issue, would you rather have Johnson or Rees-Mogg because we are going to get one of them in the next 4-6 months.

I agree with that but sadly the Labour party is massively split. The rank and file members are hugely Corbyn supporters but his fellow MP's want rid, so even if he got in a position of negotiating he's as unlikely as May to get a deal done. Lose lose situation for me caused by the (I may be repeating myself) vacuous stupidity of the vote in the first place.

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On 09/12/2018 at 20:38, Palfy said:

If true then there should be a vote of no confidence in the government, she needs sacking she's already caused untold damage.

 

22 hours ago, MikeO said:

I agree with that but sadly the Labour party is massively split. The rank and file members are hugely Corbyn supporters but his fellow MP's want rid, so even if he got in a position of negotiating he's as unlikely as May to get a deal done. Lose lose situation for me caused by the (I may be repeating myself) vacuous stupidity of the vote in the first place.

I think you are right Mike. I dont see anyone getting a deal, in fact the only motion I could see being supported would be to stay in the EU.

7 hours ago, MikeO said:

 

All reports suggest Corbyn is ducking the vote of no confidence but this a great bit of brinkmanship from Sturgeon. 

The seat is there for Corbyn but he knows this would sink him as well.

 

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Stealing a comment from the BBC (again)...

"Ministers quit, PM hanging on to power by a thread with her government in contempt of Parliament, £1bn bribery of the DUP, at least 2 Leave campaigns under investigation for criminality, Deceit, lies, parliamentary shenanigans and fake news and all this to escape the so called 'corrupt & undemocratic EU'.

Time to drain the swamp."

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1 hour ago, MikeO said:

Stealing a comment from the BBC (again)...

"Ministers quit, PM hanging on to power by a thread with her government in contempt of Parliament, £1bn bribery of the DUP, at least 2 Leave campaigns under investigation for criminality, Deceit, lies, parliamentary shenanigans and fake news and all this to escape the so called 'corrupt & undemocratic EU'.

Time to drain the swamp."

If we were in France the people would have taken to the streets by now, and the perpetrators of the Brexit lies and financial bribes and irregularities would have faced the guillotine by now. 

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40 minutes ago, Palfy said:

If we were in France the people would have taken to the streets by now, and the perpetrators of the Brexit lies and financial bribes and irregularities would have faced the guillotine by now. 

yellow vests sure got Macron to give up more than just the tax.

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28 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

yellow vests sure got Macron to give up more than just the tax.

I know mate he completely folded, you’ve got to hand it to the citizens of France they let their leaders know in no uncertain terms when there not happy, and for decades they’ve got what they want they force their leaders to do what the people want not the other way round which happens here, and the sad thing for me is we roll over and allow our government to treat us with contempt. 

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Next Tory leader, latest odds: The one who lied on a bus 6-1
The one who lied about impact assessments 8-1
The one who lied to Parliament and resigned 10-1
The one who lied and didn’t resign 15-1
The one who destroyed the NHS 20-1
The one who didn’t know we were an island 8-1

 

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26 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I dont see her going which is a shame... the only two I could have from the Tories would be Ken Clarke and Johnny Mercer. 

I’m amazed anyone wants to take the job! If May got a poisoned chalice taking over from Cameron, what the hell is this going to be?!

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From The Times...

If MPs can’t decide Brexit, ask the people

Rachel Sylvester

Parliament has proved again that it cannot agree a plan, so a second referendum offers the only way out of the impasse

As if preparing for a major military operation, ministers have been counting down the days to the “meaningful vote” with the code used by army planners: D-3, D-2, D-1. This was supposed to be D-Day for Theresa May’s Brexit deal but yesterday, facing certain defeat in the House of Commons, she delayed the battle. It was a sign of extraordinary weakness, and a personal humiliation for the prime minister. It might help her buy some more time, but she has admitted that she cannot command the support of MPs on the most important policy implemented by any government for a generation. There is virtually no chance that the EU will agree to make substantial changes to the withdrawal agreement, so she will probably soon be annihilated in any case.

The Tory leader is like a child playing hide and seek who thinks that by covering her eyes she cannot be seen. She has managed to lose her authority in the Conservative Party as well as in parliament. “She’s toast,” says one Tory MP. More importantly, however, the political process is deadlocked. The constitutional crisis that has been predicted for so long at Westminster is finally upon us.

There is, it seems, an unbridgeable divide between the prime minister and her party, between parliament and the executive, between Brexiteers and Remainers, between pragmatists and ideologues. Underlying all these tensions is the conflict between our representative democracy, in which MPs are elected to legislate in the national interest, and the direct democracy of the Brexit referendum.

This is less a difference of opinion than a category clash — like playing chess on a football pitch, and expecting the pieces to observe the offside rule. The Brexit vote was a populist cry to “take back control”, painted in primary colours, but it must be delivered through a technocratic withdrawal agreement that was always going to be fifty shades of grey. Instead of a slogan on the side of a bus promising £350 million a week for the NHS, there are 585 pages of densely written text drawn up by the kind of “experts” who were denounced by the Brexiteers. More seriously, there is an innate incongruity between parliament and plebiscite.

Historically and constitutionally, MPs are the representatives, not the delegates, of their constituents. They are supposed to exercise their own judgment on behalf of the people who send them to Westminster. It is a concept best described by the Tory philosopher Edmund Burke, who told the voters of Bristol in 1774: “Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving, you if he sacrifices it to your opinion.” That principle was fatally undermined by the decision to throw the vexed question of Britain’s relationship with the EU to the voters in a referendum. Although legally, the result of the 2016 vote was only advisory, politicians felt morally bound by it. Many MPs are torn between their duty to do what they believe is right for the country and the political imperative to follow the “will of the people”. As one minister puts it: “The referendum has not added to democracy; it’s introduced a new conflict of legitimacy.”

If this is the real cause of the current political deadlock, then the logical way out is another popular vote. It is surely wrong to insist that public opinion is set in stone when the prime minister seems to change her mind on an hourly basis about what to do. Tobias Ellwood, the defence minister, tweeted last week that the mandate of the 2016 referendum “will begin to date” and “will eventually no longer represent a reflection of current intent”. Indeed Mrs May herself decided that the mandate of the 2015 general election no longer applied after 25 months and required another election. By contrast, it is now nearly 30 months since the EU referendum.

The Brexiteers denounce the so-called People’s Vote as a betrayal but can it really be a betrayal of the “will of the people” to ask the people to confirm their will? Nobody is suggesting that the 2016 result should be overturned, just that people should be asked whether they still want to leave now that it is clear what it means. Far from being an affront to democracy, it’s an assertion of democracy.

There was always an internal tension among Brexiteers about the meaning of “take back control” if Britain escaped the clutches of the EU. By appealing simultaneously to the ideological Eurosceptics, who were interested in sovereignty, and the white working-class voters, who cared more about immigration, the Leave campaign won the referendum but now the inherent contradictions are becoming clear. It was extraordinary to see the Brexiteers denouncing last week’s Commons vote that gave MPs a say over what happens if Mrs May’s deal is rejected. Stewart Jackson, the former aide to David Davis, condemned this assertion of parliamentary sovereignty as a “long planned coup by the establishment, well represented in parliament to cheat the voters out of the Brexit they voted for”.

With judges denounced as the “enemies of the people” and Tory pro-Europeans condemned as “mutineers” the hardline Brexiteers apparently only want to give control back to people who will do what they say. It is deeply irresponsible to warn of civil unrest if the people are asked for their opinion on such a critical issue. The danger is that this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, with passions inflamed by the cries of betrayal.

In Whitehall everyone is “going round and round getting dizzy with all the permutations” as one minister puts it but the idea of another referendum is gaining momentum at the highest level. David Lidington, the prime minister’s de facto deputy, has been talking to MPs who support a People’s Vote about how it could work. “He’s in listening mode,” says one, “but he is totally opposed to the Norway model as a way forward. When he was Europe minister he saw how trapped the Norwegians were in their relationship with the EU.”

Amber Rudd, the work and pensions secretary, also says she “can’t understand the hysteria” around the idea of another referendum, pointing out that, while she would campaign to Remain, people would have every right to vote to Leave. Several ministers are said to be ready to quit and support another popular vote if Mrs May’s deal is rejected by MPs — indeed, one has already written a resignation letter. Despite Jeremy Corbyn’s reservations, Labour is edging slowly but surely towards the idea.

There is a growing sense of inevitability about it. The political system is in meltdown, parliament is gridlocked and the prime minister has lost control of events. The government is doing nothing but Brexit and now it cannot even do that. Another referendum is the only way out of this mess.

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I am totally against a second referendum myself

reason?  it would be very hypocritical of me.  I voted to leave because the EU is not democratic  and a second referendum=m no matter which way the vote goes would also be undemocratic. 

 

the sooner this is over and done with the better everyone will fee  apart from those idiots who want to start it all again.

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1 hour ago, rubecula said:

I am totally against a second referendum myself

reason?  it would be very hypocritical of me.  I voted to leave because the EU is not democratic  and a second referendum=m no matter which way the vote goes would also be undemocratic. 

 

the sooner this is over and done with the better everyone will fee  apart from those idiots who want to start it all again.

Thing is Rubes there needs to be a vote or referendum on whether we like the deal because it isn’t what Brexiteers voted for or remainers, so I can’t comprehend how you are prepared to except just to get it over and done with, if your so interested in just getting it over and done with the easiest thing would be to revoke article 50 and stay in. 

What you fail to see in your version of democracy is that if you voted for leave or remain because of certain promises that were made and then to find out later you had been lied to you shouldn’t you have the choice to reflect and change your opinion, if not that’s not democracy Rubes. 

So now that both sides of the argument are more informed as to what stay or leave will look like without all the lies and propaganda on both sides, there should be another vote in the interest of democracy which is. 

1) except the deal negotiated ( and not leave it for the MPs to decide whether to except it or not because they will just make it party politics)

2) Leave with no deal 

3) Remain

For me that would be democracy working for the good of democracy  

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2 hours ago, rubecula said:

I am totally against a second referendum myself

reason?  it would be very hypocritical of me.  I voted to leave because the EU is not democratic  and a second referendum=m no matter which way the vote goes would also be undemocratic. 

 

the sooner this is over and done with the better everyone will fee  apart from those idiots who want to start it all again.

That really makes little sense Rubes mate. Why, in a democracy, is it hypocritical to change your mind? It's kind of the point of democracy that you're allowed to do so, you don't hit 18, cast a vote and have that stand for the rest of your life; you assess what's going on and change if/when you feel the need and are more convinced by one side or another.

The Tories voted in a leader a couple of years back who some of them now feel isn'tt up to the job so some of them will be changing their minds, is that undemocratic?

Also if you're talking about the EU being undemocratic (arguable) then what about the House of Lords? You don't get less democratic than that.

The only vote that's going to get through parliament, in my view, is when a leader has the metaphorical (or real) testicles to stand up and say, "OK thanks for the thoughts in the referendum and we've investigated them thoroughly as you asked but it turns out that leaving is going to be extremely detrimental to our country so we're not going to do it."

Cue much civil unrest and a brief surge of support for UKIP but it's a price worth paying.

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4 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

Look, Brexit isn’t going to happen. 

So rejoice in the fact that the losers of the vote will actually be the winners, and the wants of 17 million people will be ignored. 

Im not even arsed anymore, I’m bored of the whole thing. 

I hope you're right Mark, embarrassing times for the country but the 17 million people voted on an invented predication that never existed outside the minds of a few self serving Tories and the UKIP loonies. Python couldn't beat this. I'm equally bored but still arsed.

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I can’t believe that people still don’t understand how our democracy works. A second referendum would be no more undemocratic than the first. The closest we got to respecting our democracy was a vote on the final deal, with May chickened out of! 

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11 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

Look, Brexit isn’t going to happen. 

So rejoice in the fact that the losers of the vote will actually be the winners, and the wants of 17 million people will be ignored. 

Im not even arsed anymore, I’m bored of the whole thing. 

It’s not a game you play or a film you watch that after a while you’ve played it or watched so much you become bored of it, far from it it’s about the future of the country and future generations, now if you can’t be arsed with that then find yourself a little desert Island somewhere and fuck off and stop praying off the people who do care about their future and the future of the country. 

Sorry mate but I find your comment the comment of a fucking arsehole. 

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1 hour ago, Palfy said:

It’s not a game you play or a film you watch that after a while you’ve played it or watched so much you become bored of it, far from it it’s about the future of the country and future generations, now if you can’t be arsed with that then find yourself a little desert Island somewhere and fuck off and stop praying off the people who do care about their future and the future of the country. 

Sorry mate but I find your comment the comment of a fucking arsehole. 

No.

Bored of hearing about it. Bored of reading the same arguments. Bored of May. Bored of hearing from the cretins like Reece-Mogg and Juncker. All of them. Bored of you. Bored of Rubes. Bored of Matt. Bored of hearing my mum whinge about the whole fucking thing. 

Bored. Bored. Bored.

Can't wait for it to end and I couldn't care less how it ends now. Just finish it.

Come to think of it, stay or go it's likely to be a piece of shit anyway and I'll still be bored as people continue to whinge.

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4 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

No.

Bored of hearing about it. Bored of reading the same arguments. Bored of May. Bored of hearing from the cretins like Reece-Mogg and Juncker. All of them. Bored of you. Bored of Rubes. Bored of Matt. Bored of hearing my mum whinge about the whole fucking thing. 

Bored. Bored. Bored.

Can't wait for it to end and I couldn't care less how it ends now. Just finish it.

Come to think of it, stay or go it's likely to be a piece of shit anyway and I'll still be bored as people continue to whinge.

I know what you mean. I’m bored of people ignoring basic facts 

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8 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

No.

Bored of hearing about it. Bored of reading the same arguments. Bored of May. Bored of hearing from the cretins like Reece-Mogg and Juncker. All of them. Bored of you. Bored of Rubes. Bored of Matt. Bored of hearing my mum whinge about the whole fucking thing. 

Bored. Bored. Bored.

Can't wait for it to end and I couldn't care less how it ends now. Just finish it.

Come to think of it, stay or go it's likely to be a piece of shit anyway and I'll still be bored as people continue to whinge.

Ok mate apologies for the way I responded to your post it was very rude of me and I shouldn’t have responded in that manner. 

I’ll be off now in case I’m beginning to bore you 😆

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12 hours ago, holystove said:

This Australian journalist is also bored of brexit and has written an article about it.

https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-britain-small-boring-and-stupid-theresa-may-eu-withdrawal-deal/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Shouldn’t they be more concerned about the island prison they have for migrants and the abuses that happen there?  Absolute shameful stuff from the Australians, how they can come from a place of calling May stupid while human rights abuses are happening with government approval is sickening

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3 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

Shouldn’t they be more concerned about the island prison they have for migrants and the abuses that happen there?  Absolute shameful stuff from the Australians, how they can come from a place of calling May stupid while human rights abuses are happening with government approval is sickening

Coming from an American? I do love irony 😛 

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On 12/12/2018 at 19:16, Palfy said:

Thing is Rubes there needs to be a vote or referendum on whether we like the deal because it isn’t what Brexiteers voted for or remainers, so I can’t comprehend how you are prepared to except just to get it over and done with, if your so interested in just getting it over and done with the easiest thing would be to revoke article 50 and stay in. 

What you fail to see in your version of democracy is that if you voted for leave or remain because of certain promises that were made and then to find out later you had been lied to you shouldn’t you have the choice to reflect and change your opinion, if not that’s not democracy Rubes. 

So now that both sides of the argument are more informed as to what stay or leave will look like without all the lies and propaganda on both sides, there should be another vote in the interest of democracy which is. 

1) except the deal negotiated ( and not leave it for the MPs to decide whether to except it or not because they will just make it party politics)

2) Leave with no deal 

3) Remain

For me that would be democracy working for the good of democracy  

So splitting the vote on Brexit but not on Remain is democratic is it?

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57 minutes ago, johnh said:

So splitting the vote on Brexit but not on Remain is democratic is it?

Eh? That makes no sense to me. Do you mean add an option something like Remain with plan of change vs Remain and continue as usual? I’d be all for that, provided there was a plan. It would be a much more positive approach. 

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1 hour ago, johnh said:

So splitting the vote on Brexit but not on Remain is democratic is it?

But do you believe democracy is to lie to people to gain their vote and when it becomes clear they are untrue statements, to then deny them the right of recourse whether a remainer or leaver. 

For me that’s not democracy working as it should, blatantly lying to win the agenda isn’t democratic it’s more akin corruption but not in your world. 

If I was swayed to vote Brexit because we won’t have to pay them a penny to leave, because we will be giving 350 Million a week to the NHS,  because there give us what we want because they need to trade with us more than we need to with them, because all other countries outside the EU will be queuing to do trades deals with us 

All of which that twat Boris and the Brexit campaign said would happen and now knowing the reality of the situation I would want the right to change my mind that’s the only fair and democratic thing you can offer those people, why do you think they shouldn’t be given that right?

 

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1 hour ago, Palfy said:

But do you believe democracy is to lie to people to gain their vote and when it becomes clear they are untrue statements, to then deny them the right of recourse whether a remainer or leaver. 

For me that’s not democracy working as it should, blatantly lying to win the agenda isn’t democratic it’s more akin corruption but not in your world. 

If I was swayed to vote Brexit because we won’t have to pay them a penny to leave, because we will be giving 350 Million a week to the NHS,  because there give us what we want because they need to trade with us more than we need to with them, because all other countries outside the EU will be queuing to do trades deals with us 

All of which that twat Boris and the Brexit campaign said would happen and now knowing the reality of the situation I would want the right to change my mind that’s the only fair and democratic thing you can offer those people, why do you think they shouldn’t be given that right?

 

Two wrongs don’t make a right. If I understood John correctly, there should be more than just 3 choices. No deal leaves us in unknown territory, Mays deal leaves us in the same situation just without a voice with our biggest trade partner.

However, “Remain” is just as vague unless you believe in no change pre this debacle, and a vote to “remain but to improve on (plan tbd)” or %age needs to be determined more than 2-3% is a must if we want to reunite the country. Everyone being allowed to vote this time would be nice too, not that I’m bitter  

That said, all the above is purely academic as our democratic model has already been ignored, except when it actually matter and May decided to refuse the vote on her deal (how our democracy actually works). 

3rd paragraph I agree with completely. 

Oh, and we’ve been reminded harshly that politicians will always put the career first...

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I struggle to see any benefits if we leave. 

- (even) lower wages and a weaker pound 

- less exports depending on barriers. (If the pound takes a huge hammering there'll be more exports however this could have a knock on and increase inflation and cause another crash in the housing market completely fucking new home owners)

- less imports as they will be more expensive (lower wages/disposable income and weaker pound) and more barriers

- less jobs as big businesses will down size their UK based headquarters and relocate to the EU to minimise the impact of the trade barriers 

- less human rights

- (even) less workers rights 

- poorer food standards 

- poorer health care 

- less global power 

- and the most worrying thought a government that doesn't have to answer to anyone. Very fucking worrying considering the shower of corrupt poor hating shits currently in power. 

The only benefit I can see is that 52% of the people who bothered to vote will get to say they won. What the fuck they actually get other than bragging rights I don't know. 

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49 minutes ago, pete0 said:

I struggle to see any benefits if we leave. 

- (even) lower wages and a weaker pound 

- less exports depending on barriers. (If the pound takes a huge hammering there'll be more exports however this could have a knock on and increase inflation and cause another crash in the housing market completely fucking new home owners)

- less imports as they will be more expensive (lower wages/disposable income and weaker pound) and more barriers

- less jobs as big businesses will down size their UK based headquarters and relocate to the EU to minimise the impact of the trade barriers 

- less human rights

- (even) less workers rights 

- poorer food standards 

- poorer health care 

- less global power 

- and the most worrying thought a government that doesn't have to answer to anyone. Very fucking worrying considering the shower of corrupt poor hating shits currently in power. 

The only benefit I can see is that 52% of the people who bothered to vote will get to say they won. What the fuck they actually get other than bragging rights I don't know. 

Wages and currency - yes, for the foreseeable future  

rights - no

health service - inevitably if the Tories stay in power. Nothing to do with Brexit. 

Less global power - been on the decline for decades but yes. 

Politicians have only ever served themselves, so no change there. 

The “We won” bullshit. Yes. 

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2 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

weaker pound means more tourists to the uk, eh?  time for MJB to book a trip once your market crashes

Stronger against the CHF just as I go over though :crying: 

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2 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

weaker pound means more tourists to the uk, eh?  time for MJB to book a trip once your market crashes

£ v € is total crap at the moment but I can only see it getting worse so I bought around €2000 for our May/June holiday today, dreadful rate but I see no scenario where it gets better (remaining aside).

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52 minutes ago, Matt said:

Wages and currency - yes, for the foreseeable future  

rights - no

health service - inevitably if the Tories stay in power. Nothing to do with Brexit. 

Less global power - been on the decline for decades but yes. 

Politicians have only ever served themselves, so no change there. 

The “We won” bullshit. Yes. 

In light of the government intentions explained in the White Paper, the most significant effect of Brexit on equality and human rights are likely to be:

  • the loss of the Charter of Fundamental Rights which includes some rights which are not in the Human Rights Act, for example on the rights of the child and a general right to non-discrimination. The Charter also provides a stronger way of enforcing human rights, in some cases, than the Human Rights Act.
  • the loss of the guarantee for equality rights provided by EU law. As a result of Brexit a future government could seek to pass laws which repeal or weaken our current rights below the standard of EU law rights

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-human-rights-work/what-does-brexit-mean-equality-and-human-rights-uk

The tories are using health care as a bargaining chip for favourable terms with the US. NHS is under funded by them but a full brexit almost guarantees the death of free health care. 

I agree about self serving politicians but at least they get pulled up by the EU such as the recent poverty review. 

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31 minutes ago, Chach said:

image.png

one these was voted on by MPs the other was voted on by the people  I think comparing these two things is an affront to common sense.

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21 minutes ago, rubecula said:

one these was voted on by MPs the other was voted on by the people  I think comparing these two things is an affront to common sense.

MPs are people too.

ps Irony.

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3 minutes ago, Chach said:

MPs are people too.

ps Irony.

are you sure?   I thought people may have meant human and politicians can nt be human can they?  :rofl:

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4 hours ago, rubecula said:

one these was voted on by MPs the other was voted on by the people  I think comparing these two things is an affront to common sense.

I agree so why are we allowing MPs to decide on whether we except a deal or not, whether you wish to remain or leave it's not the cleverest of things to do, I just find it so hard to contemplate that we would allow the lying scum bags the defining decision on our futures.

Surely I can not be the only one who feels this way, it must be out decision.

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