toptoffee Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 There are different reasons for fan unrest, but I think it's important to realise that there is only a minority of unrest, as opposed to being a majority. There are different types of fans too. We have age aspects, location, match goers v none attenders, social variations from professional people to jobless fans, and all the attitudes in between, from good sensible folk to complete Neanderthals. Summing up the typical football fan isn't easy to do. For those who think the board are doing a bad job, and don't have the business acumen to succeed, I'm all ears, if they can come up with a better business plan, and present it to the shareholders and board alike, but let's not forget that the guys on the board know a little about business, Kenwright especially owning the largest theatrical company there is. I'm fairly sure Kenwright doesn't want to leave. Why would he? He's the biggest Evertonian I know. It's more that fans have gotten to him, and his heart has been broken. For those who just want trophies at any cost, so they can walk down the street thinking they've achieved something, might they politely piss off to Manchester and support another club. Spend or be relegated is not the case. We haven't been in danger of relegation for quite some time, and in fact it's been quite the opposite. We've been one of the most successful clubs in the league since Kenwright took over, and employed Moyes to work with him. Spend and go bankrupt is a much more realistic proposition. Why can't fans come to terms with being an 'average' club, with average success? Is it so important to be the best, regardless of cost? Only one club can be the best, regardless of how much money gets spent. In our entire history, we've won the league a handful of times. Are we not still fans? Much of the point I was trying to get at regarding fans thinking they know better. Its not quite there yet on the spending point, but it looks to be going that way. And when I refer to spending I mean money we have, not money we can borrow. kenwright is a victim of his success i think. Damned if he does Damned if he doesnt. Regardless of who owns the club. What league we are in. What players we have I will still go the game and support everton. But on the same note why should we watch other clubs overtake us just because of money. Why cant we have some of that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Much of the point I was trying to get at regarding fans thinking they know better. Its not quite there yet on the spending point, but it looks to be going that way. And when I refer to spending I mean money we have, not money we can borrow. kenwright is a victim of his success i think. Damned if he does Damned if he doesnt. Regardless of who owns the club. What league we are in. What players we have I will still go the game and support everton. But on the same note why should we watch other clubs overtake us just because of money. Why cant we have some of that? Would you dump your wife for a better looking woman just because your friends went out with models? Kenwright is special to the club. He should be embraced, not persecuted. It's not his fault he can't compete, but there are more like him, than there are like the City owners. As long as we stay in the Premiership, I'll be happy. I don't need silverware to love my club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Would you dump your wife for a better looking woman just because your friends went out with models? Kenwright is special to the club. He should be embraced, not persecuted. It's not his fault he can't compete, but there are more like him, than there are like the City owners. As long as we stay in the Premiership, I'll be happy. I don't need silverware to love my club. Why is Kenwright special to the club? I really don't get this. There seems to be a mad obsession that turning on kenwright means turning on the club, it isn't. If Kenwright delivered the kings dock, never lied about investment funds, never gave his "watch this space" "bored of your question", pursued a flawed kirby stadium, cancelled agm's etc then I wouldn't have an issue with the crazy loyalty he is afforded. I know from this that he can not be trusted in the sale of our club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Why is Kenwright special to the club? I really don't get this. There seems to be a mad obsession that turning on kenwright means turning on the club, it isn't. If Kenwright delivered the kings dock, never lied about investment funds, never gave his "watch this space" "bored of your question", pursued a flawed kirby stadium, cancelled agm's etc then I wouldn't have an issue with the crazy loyalty he is afforded. I know from this that he can not be trusted in the sale of our club. Don't you mean the sale of 'his' club? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Don't you mean the sale of 'his' club? No, it's our club, the fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 No, it's our club, the fans. Are you a share holder Haf? The club belongs to those who own it,not those who support it. You can't forget this, and in place install some romantic notion that the club belongs to the fans. It simply doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTK Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 (edited) Don't you mean the sale of 'his' club? I think you've hit the nail on the head. The club could sell for the price of the debt but it would mean Kenwright & Co losing their cash. They will never agree to this unless forced. In the open stock market, the shares would be trading for next to nothing & the market would fix the problem for us. Unfortunately, with private ownership, the club is at the mercy of the owners and only creditors can force a sale. The problem being that normally this only happens when the club is right on the edge of insolvency & can no longer meet operational costs or debt repayments. (It's a matter for debate how close this is to happening) Football's a strange business. In any other industry if you bought a company, ran it at a loss for 10 years, sold all the tangible assets & funded your further losses by debt to the point where no lendor will touch you, you would be considered a fool who deserved to lose his money. In football you can be worshipped for doing it Edited September 11, 2011 by MTK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Would you dump your wife for a better looking woman just because your friends went out with models? Kenwright is special to the club. He should be embraced, not persecuted. It's not his fault he can't compete, but there are more like him, than there are like the City owners. As long as we stay in the Premiership, I'll be happy. I don't need silverware to love my club. Sorry but it very much is, BK never had the money to buy the club in the first place, he mortgaged his own house and borrowed left,right and centre to buy his shares due to him having no resources of his own, so there is argument as to whether he should have got involved in the first place, why did he get invovled knowing it needed money to run yet he did'nt have any to me it stinks of the kid with his prize toy that he had to have but now wont let go of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Are you a share holder Haf? The club belongs to those who own it,not those who support it. You can't forget this, and in place install some romantic notion that the club belongs to the fans. It simply doesn't. Nope, but over the years I've spent thousands on our club. Listen, Ive worked in an extremely corporate environment for over 10 years, I get ownership, I get P&L etc etc, no one will ever convince me that anyone other than the fans own the club. Businessmen will come and go, the club will and should always be there as will the fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Nope, but over the years I've spent thousands on our club. Listen, Ive worked in an extremely corporate environment for over 10 years, I get ownership, I get P&L etc etc, no one will ever convince me that anyone other than the fans own the club. Businessmen will come and go, the club will and should always be there as will the fans. What return on your investment do you expect if the club gets sold Haf? I salute your romanticism, but it wouldn't go far in a court of law unfortunately. MTK .... Yes, that's pretty much it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Sorry but it very much is, BK never had the money to buy the club in the first place, he mortgaged his own house and borrowed left,right and centre to buy his shares due to him having no resources of his own, so there is argument as to whether he should have got involved in the first place, why did he get invovled knowing it needed money to run yet he did'nt have any to me it stinks of the kid with his prize toy that he had to have but now wont let go of Valid point. How much sympathy would you have for someone who bought a house for £300k at the height of sub prime lending knowing full well that they couldn't afford it? Would you feel sorry for them selling the doors, windows and slates off the roof to make repayments? No, you would question their logic and wonder why they haven't got the best estate agent going and have the price advirtised - surely it would be going for the right price to entice that much needed buyer in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smeghead1 Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Just a thought but does anyone have any idea who would be suitable in BK eyes? I keep hearing the same things if the right buyer came along but then in the next breath theres talk of investment, isnt an invester different to a buyer?? If the rumours are correct and the citeh owners were intrested and werent deemed suitable even tho theyre spending millions redeveloping all around their ground then who is going to fit the bill?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 What return on your investment do you expect if the club gets sold Haf? I salute your romanticism, but it wouldn't go far in a court of law unfortunately. MTK .... Yes, that's pretty much it. The same that Mr Kenwright should expect for his - zilch. If he loves the club - selling it to break even would make the shares go for an extremely generous figure - then he could stipulate many things in the contract (stadium development, expected transfer budget, period of ownership etc) Pretty much like Sir Jack Hayward - what a man he is. True legend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Valid point. How much sympathy would you have for someone who bought a house for £300k at the height of sub prime lending knowing full well that they couldn't afford it? Would you feel sorry for them selling the doors, windows and slates off the roof to make repayments? No, you would question their logic and wonder why they haven't got the best estate agent going and have the price advirtised - surely it would be going for the right price to entice that much needed buyer in. What if the guy bought the house to get his nagging wife off his back? Football fans are like money grabbing women. They are only interested if you flash the cash. The only reason Kenwright and co can't afford the club is because of fans. Fans demand success, so clubs spend trying to achieve it, and in turn, the price goes up. It's a circle that will ruin football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Sorry but it very much is, BK never had the money to buy the club in the first place, he mortgaged his own house and borrowed left,right and centre to buy his shares due to him having no resources of his own, so there is argument as to whether he should have got involved in the first place, why did he get invovled knowing it needed money to run yet he did'nt have any to me it stinks of the kid with his prize toy that he had to have but now wont let go of Would you have prefered Johnson stay in control? Imagine if you were blessed to have the money where you're in a position to take-over the club you love and save us from where we were under Johnson's regime! Sorry but you haven't got a valid argument there. Kenwright took over the club and did an excellent job. It's got to the stage though where football has changed and become more and more a money mans game. It is time for BK to move on and he knows that so we will see what happens... I could say "watch this space!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 The same that Mr Kenwright should expect for his - zilch. If he loves the club - selling it to break even would make the shares go for an extremely generous figure - then he could stipulate many things in the contract (stadium development, expected transfer budget, period of ownership etc) Pretty much like Sir Jack Hayward - what a man he is. True legend. Is he the guy that killed the dragon? Oops, wrong legend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTK Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 I agree on Jack Hayward & in my kinder moments I even come close to thinking that Kenwright might just do the same, if he could. Problem being, his mates who own the other shares won't. The more I think about it, the more I believe a forced sale is the only way forward. That's why I want a campaign to force the sale now, before it's administration that does it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 (edited) I agree on Jack Hayward & in my kinder moments I even come close to thinking that Kenwright might just do the same, if he could. Problem being, his mates who own the other shares won't. The more I think about it, the more I believe a forced sale is the only way forward. That's why I want a campaign to force the sale now, before it's administration that does it The circumstances are a little different with Hayward to be fair. He got wolves for a few million, and spent lots of his own cash, where as Kenwright didn't have the same financial muscle to do an equivalent investment. Also, Wolves were a long time outside of the top flight. If I was rich, I'd be reluctant to buy into football, that's for sure. Edited September 11, 2011 by Avinalaff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 The same that Mr Kenwright should expect for his - zilch. If he loves the club - selling it to break even would make the shares go for an extremely generous figure - then he could stipulate many things in the contract (stadium development, expected transfer budget, period of ownership etc) Pretty much like Sir Jack Hayward - what a man he is. True legend. i heard i few years back that a part stumbling block was that the shares were valued at £2400 each and BK and the board wanted £4000 each for their shares, thats almost double the value and no wonder no one is interested in buying us, but that was probably 2-3 years ago i heard that, so probably not the same situation now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 The same that Mr Kenwright should expect for his - zilch. If he loves the club - selling it to break even would make the shares go for an extremely generous figure - then he could stipulate many things in the contract (stadium development, expected transfer budget, period of ownership etc) Pretty much like Sir Jack Hayward - what a man he is. True legend. Hayward is a lot older than Kenwright and was when he let go of Wolves, plus he's a lot lot richer - totally different situations. You can't deny that Hayward is a legend though, been lucky enough to meet him a few times when I was a kid and last year at a Wolves youth players do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 I have felt for some time now that Bill is in above his head. The Phillip Green involvement is what bothers me - I feel he has underwritten Kenwright, Now in terms of ownership - someone correct me on this.... Kenwright owns the majority of shares, if he was to sell those shares, he is free to do so at his own price? The others do not need to sell, they could ride the coat tails of the new comer? In essence, the club would change hands, but theoretically why would anyone want Woods and Earl sat along them with their hands in their pocket. Is this a potential problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTK Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Kenwright owns 8,754 out of 35,000 - 25%. Not even enough to guarantee you a seat on the board Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Woods 19%, Earl 23%, Carter 2% add Kenwrights 25% makes 69% by my calculations! Why can't someone buy the 31% unaccounted for and work from inside? I need someone with business knowledge to explain this to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Everton's Annual Accounts include a listing of share ownership at Board level. This was the situation at the end of May 2008 (the last date currently available): Bill Kenwright 8,754 Shares Robert Earl 8,146 Shares John Woods 6,622 Shares Sir Philip Carter 714 Shares Keith Wyness 2 Shares Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 appraently you can buy the odd share that becomes available for £1200 - £1500, the price drops for bulk lots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTK Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Woods 19%, Earl 23%, Carter 2% add Kenwrights 25% makes 69% by my calculations! Why can't someone buy the 31% unaccounted for and work from inside? I need someone with business knowledge to explain this to me! I think that Grantchester still has a reasonable holding & the rest are shared amongst small shareholders. The problem that you would have is that once you own 30% of the shares, you are required by law to make an offer to buy all shares. The price you have to offer is the highest price you have bought a share at during the last 12 months. So you would need to have a great deal of cash to do this & would probably end up buying at higher than market value. Or you would need to get a large number of people to sell their shares to you at a low price. In which case, Kenwright & Co can refuse to sell to you & you are stuck with 31% of a company & no control if the current directors block vote against you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 appraently you can buy the odd share that becomes available for £1200 - £1500, the price drops for bulk lots. On that basis it would cost £16m to buy the remaining 31% of the club. Here's the maths... 8754 = 25% so x4 35016 = 100% Club shares value = £52,524,000 on the basis of each share worth £1500 so x0.31 £16,282,440 = 31% Obviously it's not that simple!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Where has this 31% figure come from? There is a fair proportion of shares held outside of the board by share holders isn't there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 This topic is ace. We are all on an educational journey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Where has this 31% figure come from? There is a fair proportion of shares held outside of the board by share holders isn't there? Made it up - that's what people do on here don't they! 31% are the minor shareholders - what doesn't show up as a named person when the percentages are broken down on official/unofficial sites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.