Romey 1878 Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 I applauded him to show him that the vast majority of fans dont agree with the abuse he has been receiving from the Bufoon Union As it happens I dont beleive his tenure has been a failure. When he took over we had an ageing squad full of players way past their best such as Gascoigne and Ginola that was constantly flirting with relegation, and it was only a matter of time before we would have lost that particular battle. Now we have a squad full of young internationals with their best years ahead of them and we are challenging for Europe every year. Doesnt sound much like a failure to me Maybe he should take over from Moyes then seeing as he spotted we should bring in younger players, hauled us up the table and then got us playing well enough to get into Europe. Shame about him favouring the 451 though, I've always hated that about Moyes but it turns out I was aiming my anger at the wrong man! Sorry, Davey . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Really????? Then what happened in 2004/05 , 2006/07, 2007/08, 2008/09 ? We also finished 7th in 2002/03 and 2010/11 and 8th in 2009/10 so I would say we have very much been challenging for Europe well how far back do you want to go? 09/10 and 10/11 yes we finished 8th and 7th but we got there right at the end of the season, there was no danger of us qualifying. ill give you the seasons previous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) But the fact that we had to sell players so we could survive shows how unstable we are Matt, the mere fact that it was necessary shows what a precarious position we are in. You're acting like the board should be congratulated for selling players to get them off the wage bill to make us more comfortable when the truth is they had no other option! You then mention later on that the £5million saved in wages could go towards giving Fellaini increased wages on a new contract. But we do that and then we're right back to where we found ourselves this summer and we'll have to ship players out, make our squad smaller and have no way of bringing players in again. Stability? My fucking arse. These record deals are rubbish. They show no forward thinking whatsoever, it's been all about getting money in as fast as possible with no thought. That doesn't show stability either. Elstone should be strung up for some of the deals he's concluded since come in, not lauded. We had to sell players because we broke the rules on the wage structure in the last couple of years which forced us into more debt than we could handle. The board took a gamble and it didnt pay off (incidentally a gamble many people see as "ambition"). So in order to make up for that gamble we had to sell. Now that this 13m a year is off, we shouldnt need to sell again but as you said somewhere else (i feel im having the same debate in 3-4 different threads!) time will tell. I mention Felli getting a boost because he has earned it in my eyes, though i dont know what hes currently on and I dont know what hes asking for - its just an idea. People are desperate for him to stay and saying give him a new contract - guess what, were going to have to make it a tasty one to get him to stay. Will it be at the same level as Artetas? Hope not. But if it is, its because hes proved his worth. Youre right though, it will start the slippery slope to debt again. The balance is so so fine.... I dont want him getting a massive weekly salary, not any of them. Im convinced we should be giving a basic salary to all and have them earn their money in bonuses, but this opens another can of worms. As for the deals, well im not going into any more. New deals bringing in guaranteed cash replacing deals that lost us cash is a positive move. Compare to other examples all you like, theyve improved and we're adding to them. Not the biggest deals in the world but were not the biggest club in the world. Sad, but true. Edited September 13, 2011 by Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 I mention Felli getting a boost because he has earned it in my eyes, though i dont know what hes currently on and I dont know what hes asking for - its just an idea. People are desperate for him to stay and saying give him a new contract - guess what, were going to have to make it a tasty one to get him to stay. Will it be at the same level as Artetas? Hope not. But if it is, its because hes proved his worth. Youre right though, it will start the slippery slope to debt again. The balance is so so fine.... I dont want him getting a massive weekly salary, not any of them. Im convinced we should be giving a basic salary to all and have them earn their money in bonuses, but this opens another can of worms. As for the deals, well im not going into any more. New deals bringing in guaranteed cash replacing deals that lost us cash is a positive move. Compare to other examples all you like, theyve improved and we're adding to them. Not the biggest deals in the world but were not the biggest club in the world. Sad, but true. Yes the balance is so so fine, that's my point, and that's what shopws we are anything but stable. We're in a vicious circle here and the only way that's going to end is through owners because our current owners do not have a sustainable plan because, in Kenwright's case he can't put money in and never has, and in Woods' and Earl's case they refuse to put money into the club and never have. I agree Felli deserves a new contract, that wasn't my point. And I agree with your point about a basic wage, the wages handed out these days is sickening. I know we're not the biggest club in the world but these deals should be better than they are. Seeing as our owners can't or won't put money into the club they should be looking to maximise these streams, but in essence we've shot ourselves in the foot. Business isn't about just accepting the first deal on the table, you need to look ahead to the future and plan for it. We've failed on this front time and time again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 fair enough Mark. Think weve come to a mutual and acceptable stopping point here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Why are people praising our commercial success? We aren't commercially successful. Moving up the scale from abysmal to poor is not progress worth celebrating. We are tied in long term to kit bag and have outsourced nearly everything. Joke of a business decision. It seems we do no benchmarking. How ironic considering that when Fellaini discusses his contract we will be discussing his salary based on similar level footballers, which his dad will well know (arguably £70k a week plus) - however when we look at our deals next to our similar level clubs we seem way off the numbers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Why are people praising our commercial success? We aren't commercially successful. Moving up the scale from abysmal to poor is not progress worth celebrating. We are tied in long term to kit bag and have outsourced nearly everything. Joke of a business decision. It seems we do no benchmarking. How ironic considering that when Fellaini discusses his contract we will be discussing his salary based on similar level footballers, which his dad will well know (arguably £70k a week plus) - however when we look at our deals next to our similar level clubs we seem way off the numbers... You should always celebrate success, ask any successful company and that will be one of their golden rules. Improvement is improvement. You should always try and improve on the previous improvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 i think thats three pages without an insult! good work lads, i thik everyone is a little calmer at the mo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 i think thats three pages without an insult! good work lads, i thik everyone is a little calmer at the mo. you know you just invited a storm now right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 i think thats three pages without an insult! good work lads, i thik everyone is a little calmer at the mo. Fuck off, Steve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 mark you are a prick! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 I used to like you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 cunts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Bag of? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 you arseholes don't deserve a bag! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 a bag of cunts? where do you buy them? LFC club shop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 cunts are too useful to be sold in their shithouse shops..especially in bulk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWooney Posted September 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 find it funny flicking between kipper and here, I'd say 85% of them would be fuming at most of the comments on here while most on here would heavily object to the Bill hating stance over there. Amazing how the business of the club can seperate so many people that essentially want the same thing. I'm pretty split on the matter, were certainly doing much better on the pitch than we used to but we don't make a profit, have a crumbling ground and an increasing debt. This makes it difficult to achieve what every fan is wanting that's for sure. From what i've heard Fellaini's issue over signing a contract at the moment isn't necessarily how much appears in his bank every week but more as to where the club is going. He's just seen us sell one of our best players as well as others and not use any of the many to replace them, this is obviously going to concern him and somehow Moyes/Bill etc need to convince him that there is a worthwhile reason for him to stay with us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) find it funny flicking between kipper and here, I'd say 85% of them would be fuming at most of the comments on here while most on here would heavily object to the Bill hating stance over there. Amazing how the business of the club can seperate so many people that essentially want the same thing. I'm pretty split on the matter, were certainly doing much better on the pitch than we used to but we don't make a profit, have a crumbling ground and an increasing debt. This makes it difficult to achieve what every fan is wanting that's for sure. From what i've heard Fellaini's issue over signing a contract at the moment isn't necessarily how much appears in his bank every week but more as to where the club is going. He's just seen us sell one of our best players as well as others and not use any of the many to replace them, this is obviously going to concern him and somehow Moyes/Bill etc need to convince him that there is a worthwhile reason for him to stay with us. I made a post on BlueKipper regarding their OTT and inaccurate report of Captain Pip making "mincemeat" of the presenter on football focus. It wasn't worthy of censorship, but it went against the pro Bill comments that you will see makes up 99% of the fans comments. I highlighted that a player who had just signed a lucrative 2 year retirement package should not be passing comment that "£10m was too good for a club like Everton to turn down for a 29 year old" especially given that he is by no means a first name on the sheet player being one of the oldest also. "If I didn't think this club was going forward, if I thought it was going backwards, I wouldn't have signed a two-year contract. I still want to win trophies." You ain't gonna win trophies playing like you did against Blackburn Phil Low and behold, they didn't include it... http://www.bluekippe..._speaks_up.html Edited September 13, 2011 by Hafnia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) find it funny flicking between kipper and here, I'd say 85% of them would be fuming at most of the comments on here while most on here would heavily object to the Bill hating stance over there. Amazing how the business of the club can seperate so many people that essentially want the same thing. I think the big difference is here the anti Bill members, myself included, dont want to abuse him. We dont want him to stay and would love the club to be sold, but I dont think anyone here is against the man personally. On a few sites people want him gone and want to abuse him, a little unsavoury for me. Edited September 13, 2011 by StevO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 I think the big difference is here the anti Bill members, myself included, dont want to abuse him. We dont want him to stay and would love the club to be sold, but I dont think anyone here is against the man personally. On a few sites people want him gone and want to abuse him, a little unsavoury for me. I believe that Kenwrights personality draws an unbelievable line between fans. The people who want to give him the time to find the right buyer believe that he is capable, tries his best, loves the club and deserves respect for getting rid of Johnson. They enjoy his passion and love for the club and feel it is great to have a true blue at the helm. Some believe he has a flawed personality. An egotist who believes he is the best man to head Everton, no bigger fan etc etc. The BU transcript and interview with samuelson worryingly seems to support this. Worryingly this makes many believe he would need to be dragged out of the seat of power at the club, unable to handle that someone else will be named "Chairman of Everton F.C". This belief in some is what drags some bile and hatred "how dare he say he is a bigger fan than me" - "trainset" - etc etc. The reality is, he is in no position to make things better, he has lied, he has failed and he has lost the trust of too many. The visibility he has so often courted when the times "are right" has made him visible in the eyes of many who are unhappy with what we currently are. For that he has only himself to blame. We are aware of the other board members and would love to know what they actually do - are they involved in selling the club? What do they think of how things are? are their shares for sale? Come on Bill - do yourself a favour and bring them out into the firing line... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 I believe that Kenwrights personality draws an unbelievable line between fans. The people who want to give him the time to find the right buyer believe that he is capable, tries his best, loves the club and deserves respect for getting rid of Johnson. They enjoy his passion and love for the club and feel it is great to have a true blue at the helm. Some believe he has a flawed personality. An egotist who believes he is the best man to head Everton, no bigger fan etc etc. The BU transcript and interview with samuelson worryingly seems to support this. Worryingly this makes many believe he would need to be dragged out of the seat of power at the club, unable to handle that someone else will be named "Chairman of Everton F.C". This belief in some is what drags some bile and hatred "how dare he say he is a bigger fan than me" - "trainset" - etc etc. The reality is, he is in no position to make things better, he has lied, he has failed and he has lost the trust of too many. The visibility he has so often courted when the times "are right" has made him visible in the eyes of many who are unhappy with what we currently are. For that he has only himself to blame. We are aware of the other board members and would love to know what they actually do - are they involved in selling the club? What do they think of how things are? are their shares for sale? Come on Bill - do yourself a favour and bring them out into the firing line... Seems that Saturdays show of support would disprove that statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 i dont want to get into that stuff. very messy. can i ask matt, as a supporter of bill, what was your take on the fortress sports fund? im not trying to be bitchy, i can only see one side of a lot of the arguments as i am strong in my belief of whatever state we are in. most of my mates are of the same opinion as me so i dont get to speak to many in favour and just want to see your perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 i dont want to get into that stuff. very messy. can i ask matt, as a supporter of bill, what was your take on the fortress sports fund? im not trying to be bitchy, i can only see one side of a lot of the arguments as i am strong in my belief of whatever state we are in. most of my mates are of the same opinion as me so i dont get to speak to many in favour and just want to see your perspective. I'll hold my hands up here, the more i read into it the more confused I get so I cant defend nor attack BK and the board on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 I'll hold my hands up here, the more i read into it the more confused I get so I cant defend nor attack BK and the board on this. Matt the reality is that the fans realise that under any other manager we would more than likely not be in the premier league, you and a few others keep looking at the team we have now compared to the team we had under Johnson and think it's a testament to Kenwright... it's a very very odd appraisal. Forget the team, Moyes has sold and bought repeatedly over 10 years to do this at a net spend of Zilch - exactly what credit should Bill and the boys take for that? The fact that they put him there? Moyes has an uncanny ability to spot budget players and get them playing at a good level - not Kenwright. Back onto Kenwright - the Fortress Fund was a complete and utter disgrace of a lie created in order to wrestle control of the club from Paul Gregg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 you ignore my post the other day? i found the stats and we had a net spend of around 18mill over last 10 years including this season so was 30m+ before that..unless the transfer figures i found were wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) Forget the team, Moyes has sold and bought repeatedly over 10 years to do this at a net spend of Zilch - exactly what credit should Bill and the boys take for that? The fact that they put him there? In a word, Wages. Transfer fees are minor in comparison. The question should be: Does Kenwright get credit for keeping hold of our players by boosting their contacts or Moyes for giving up his transfer kitty to increase the players wages? Scouts get credit for identifying player Moyes gets credit for breaking down targets in to an eclectic group Kenwright gets credit for attracting a player and getting him to sign a piece of very important paper(Gosling aside) Edited September 13, 2011 by pete0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 £1.8m average per season is pretty poor. But for me the transfer kitty isn't the issue so I'm not going to get bogged down by it. Appreciate your honesty matt. There are only a hand full of these incidents that really grate on me, but they cut deep and I don't find them forgivable. I wish the whole thing would have fell through, FSF robbed us of the chance to see what Paul gregg might have done with the club. A very very successful business man who had the funds to at least support the clubs debts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Matt the reality is that the fans realise that under any other manager we would more than likely not be in the premier league, you and a few others keep looking at the team we have now compared to the team we had under Johnson and think it's a testament to Kenwright... it's a very very odd appraisal. Forget the team, Moyes has sold and bought repeatedly over 10 years to do this at a net spend of Zilch - exactly what credit should Bill and the boys take for that? The fact that they put him there? Moyes has an uncanny ability to spot budget players and get them playing at a good level - not Kenwright. Back onto Kenwright - the Fortress Fund was a complete and utter disgrace of a lie created in order to wrestle control of the club from Paul Gregg. how can you realize a hypothetical statement? Point is, we do have Moyes so comments like that are completely irrelevant and you cant prove it, so why both saying it. In your opinion, it might have happened - in reality i didnt. It is a testament to Kenwright, at least partial. Under his reign, we have improved despite some cockups. Until I understand the FSF I will withhold judgement on it, because im not in possession of all the facts, as im sure noone on here is. Im not going into this with you any more because we are going round in circles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 £1.8m average per season is pretty poor. But for me the transfer kitty isn't the issue so I'm not going to get bogged down by it. Appreciate your honesty matt. There are only a hand full of these incidents that really grate on me, but they cut deep and I don't find them forgivable. I wish the whole thing would have fell through, FSF robbed us of the chance to see what Paul gregg might have done with the club. A very very successful business man who had the funds to at least support the clubs debts. im just tryin to keep an open mind mate rather than be swayed by peoples opinions or people who think their opinion is actually the truth because theyve convinced themselves (im really not finger pointing here!). Until i understand it, i will try and fight with what info i do know and hold on topics i dont. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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