Romey 1878 Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 (edited) It's a clique forum Romey. Let's not pretend otherwise. Still, you have Haf to keep the fires burning, eh mate. I don't think it is at all. Bailey agreed with me there but he's disagreed with me on other things, and the same goes for any other member on here. Christ, even you've agreed with me on things on here so are you part of my clique too? I really don't know why you're seeing this as everyone against you, because it's not the case. There are people who share your views, they've made themselves known. I, and others, happen to not agree with many of your opinions and are just trying to debate the issues with you. You've said many times that you're happy to do that, but when people get into it with you you get all defensive. Edited December 12, 2011 by Romey 1878 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 I keep the fires burning, ace!!! Can I not be the fire starter, twisted fire starter ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Yeah ..... Go get em Haf. They deserve you mate. Burn it down to the ground dude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 The day everyone agrees with my posts will be a very boring day - they aren't right, they aren't wrong. Just my opinions and I urge people to debate, it's healthy. We all want the best for the club, we just have different ideas as to what will get us there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mac Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Seems like there's a few reds in disguise on here, you all cant be blues going at each other like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Seems like there's a few reds in disguise on here, you all cant be blues going at each other like that. I like Moyes - they don't. World keeps turning. Not necessarily in the direction I'd like, but it turns all the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 The day everyone agrees with my posts will be a very boring day - they aren't right, they aren't wrong. Just my opinions and I urge people to debate, it's healthy. We all want the best for the club, we just have different ideas as to what will get us there. Madam Zelda predicts a very interesting life ahead for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcus jones Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Yes Avin I know you like Moyes, I like him too, most on here do. It is no a straw poll of do you like him or not. I don't know about anyone else but I feel he is not up to his own high standards at the mo. I't does not mean I want him replaced, I want him to lead us forward again. He is capable of so much more. He has always had my backing. Have I made my position on the matter clear enough? I admire your upbeat thinking on the issue. That is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Yes Avin I know you like Moyes, I like him too, most on here do. It is no a straw poll of do you like him or not. I don't know about anyone else but I feel he is not up to his own high standards at the mo. I't does not mean I want him replaced, I want him to lead us forward again. He is capable of so much more. He has always had my backing. Have I made my position on the matter clear enough? I admire your upbeat thinking on the issue. That is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoroBlue Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 Not everybody forgets just what a fantastic manager Moyes has been since he joined us in 2002. He has worked tirelessly for our club, and given the fans a new sense of expectancy and pride. With very little help from the board, he has taken us back to the top end of the table, given us Wembley experience, and European excitement. His transfer dealings have been remarkable, finding complete bargains, and turning many of them into International stars, coveted by the top clubs, and his faith in bringing young players through is there for all to see. We are currently going through our hardest period in many years, as a business, and many fans have been at a low, with all the politics surrounding us, but it is time to stop using Moyes as an outlet for your frustrations - he simply doesn't deserve it. If anything, blame the game itself, and it's financial burden. So he makes a few decisions that fans don't expect. The same 'out of the box' thinking was what made us a great team. You can't expect the guy to get things right all the time, nor can you expect to take the teams best players away and not have a blip. Give the man time, and he will turn it round. I think there is still another chapter unwritten for our club, and I don't think it will be a negative one. It's time to get back behind the man, and start being Evertonians again My point to Matt was that we have to forget history, and anything else, if we are to be able to contemplate our current situation. Up and down the forums, fans can't accept it, because they feel we should be above all this. I'm confused, should we be forgetting history or not? On the one hand Moyes is immune to criticism based on his past achievements but on the other we need to forget history and the clubs past achievments and base our expectations on the current situation. I completely agree with you on the second point but not the first Is Moyes getting the best out of the current crop of players? No I don't think so Is Moyes getting the most out the resources available to him? No, as the manager he needs to be making tough decisions, what areas can we afford to sell in order to raise funds and what areas need to be strengthened with the limited funds available. Do I think Moyes should be given time to get things right? Yes, there is no denying what a great job he has done in the past and you don't lose that over night Do I think the fans have a right to criticise? Yes, simply put our results and performances have been poor as have Moyes tactics, On paper I would put us behind the top 6 teams in the league but above the rest so we are underperforming at the minute. If results and performances don't pick up by the end of the season will I still be behind Moyes? I'm not so sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mac Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 (edited) Hi, i hope you dont mind me putting my twopenny worth in, I'm not sure of the average age of the membership on this forum, but surely by looking at the history of the club, you have to accept that David Moyes is without doubt the best manager we have had since Howard Kendall gave us that fabulous few years back in the eighties. I can remember us fighting off relegation time and time again and getting players who were "has beens" well into their mid 30s and just about finished as footballers, that was until Mr Moyes came on the scene, his record at this club is desired by many premier league managers. The last 5 years alone is happy reading 2007 - 6th, 2008 - 5th, 2009 - 5th, 2010 - 8th, 2011 - 7th, he even got us into 4th place soon after he arrived, he has won Manager of the season, won Manager of the month many times, and has taken us to a Wembley Cup Final to lose only on penalties. Thats not a bad CV. Things at the Club have become more and more difficult for him and i am sure he is as frustrated as any of the supporters, but he is dedicated and wants above all to do well at this Club, nobody could blame him if he walked away and left us in the shit, but he is sticking with us through the rough times and i think he needs our support. It is an appreciation thread so i just thought i would show my appreciation. JM Edited December 13, 2011 by Joey Mac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 I'm confused, should we be forgetting history or not? On the one hand Moyes is immune to criticism based on his past achievements but on the other we need to forget history and the clubs past achievments and base our expectations on the current situation. I completely agree with you on the second point but not the first Is Moyes getting the best out of the current crop of players? No I don't think so Is Moyes getting the most out the resources available to him? No, as the manager he needs to be making tough decisions, what areas can we afford to sell in order to raise funds and what areas need to be strengthened with the limited funds available. Do I think Moyes should be given time to get things right? Yes, there is no denying what a great job he has done in the past and you don't lose that over night Do I think the fans have a right to criticise? Yes, simply put our results and performances have been poor as have Moyes tactics, On paper I would put us behind the top 6 teams in the league but above the rest so we are underperforming at the minute. If results and performances don't pick up by the end of the season will I still be behind Moyes? I'm not so sure If we look at club history, we have expectancy. With that expectancy comes disappointment if expectations are not met. Moyes is stuck in the middle, but he isn't equipped with enough quality players to meet the expectancy of the fans. Fans start to analyse and scrutinise, and every weakness of Moyes becomes uncovered in their search for the answer. Is it right to pull the guy apart, and expect every decision he makes to be correct? Is he not human, and allowed to make mistakes? If he had more quality players, would some of his decisions be different? It's a circle of events that requires Moyes to continually be a tactical genius, in order to have a chance of succeeding. We are asking far too much of the man. Give him a squad - let him manage it - judge him. At the moment, it's give him a second rate squad - ask him to perform miracles - condemn him. We all want what is best for the team, especially Moyes, but the answer is surely to give him a better squad, rather than to replace him. Would another manager compete any better with our current squad? (remember we need it to be long term, not just for the rest of the season). I think with better players, comes easier decision making. We have a 'tiny' squad, and in it, many players are ageing because the club have been unable to invest. Moyes would be in a completely different mind set if he had a team able to compete. At present, he can only look to survive. 6 players would be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codders78 Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 I wont criticise Moyes but I can no longer stick up for him. It was the Stoke game that stuck in my throat. We let a side that had a european game midweek dictate to us at home. We arent adventurous, we never throw caution to the wind even when chasing games. For me the negativity surrounding the club is all consuming from our finances to the attitude we currently display on the pitch. We all deserve better. Moyes will never get a big job because they require big ideas and a certain amount of flexibility Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoroBlue Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 If we look at club history, we have expectancy. With that expectancy comes disappointment if expectations are not met. Moyes is stuck in the middle, but he isn't equipped with enough quality players to meet the expectancy of the fans. Fans start to analyse and scrutinise, and every weakness of Moyes becomes uncovered in their search for the answer. Is it right to pull the guy apart, and expect every decision he makes to be correct? Is he not human, and allowed to make mistakes? If he had more quality players, would some of his decisions be different? It's a circle of events that requires Moyes to continually be a tactical genius, in order to have a chance of succeeding. We are asking far too much of the man. Give him a squad - let him manage it - judge him. At the moment, it's give him a second rate squad - ask him to perform miracles - condemn him. We all want what is best for the team, especially Moyes, but the answer is surely to give him a better squad, rather than to replace him. Would another manager compete any better with our current squad? (remember we need it to be long term, not just for the rest of the season). I think with better players, comes easier decision making. We have a 'tiny' squad, and in it, many players are ageing because the club have been unable to invest. Moyes would be in a completely different mind set if he had a team able to compete. At present, he can only look to survive. 6 players would be nice. Do you think Moyes is getting the best out of the current team? Do you think Moyes has been tactically sound so far this season? Do you think Moyes has made the most of his limited resources in recent season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 Do you think Moyes is getting the best out of the current team? Do you think Moyes has been tactically sound so far this season? Do you think Moyes has made the most of his limited resources in recent season? Sorry mate, but I wrote a long thoughtful reply and my system crashed before I could save it. Don't have the patience to go through it all again, nor will I remember all the various points I raised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beard Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 (edited) Av, I can answer these questions succinctly Do you think Moyes is getting the best out of the current team? NO Do you think Moyes has been tactically sound so far this season? NO Do you think Moyes has made the most of his limited resources in recent season? YES My opinion, if you want further explanation please feel free to comment. Edited December 13, 2011 by The Beard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 I don't think it is at all. Bailey agreed with me there but he's disagreed with me on other things, and the same goes for any other member on here. Christ, even you've agreed with me on things on here so are you part of my clique too? I really don't know why you're seeing this as everyone against you, because it's not the case. There are people who share your views, they've made themselves known. I, and others, happen to not agree with many of your opinions and are just trying to debate the issues with you. You've said many times that you're happy to do that, but when people get into it with you you get all defensive. This Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanchesterCity Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 Isn't it the nature of most football fans to want to be doing better than they are? Some teams are reasonable 'content' with where they are, but for the majority, there's usually a feeling (in the dreamy heads of fans) that their team are just a couple of players short of glory, or a few wins away from promotion, etc etc. It's natural for most fans to feel slightly irked that their club don't quite reach the potential they THINK they could, and there's always a range of plausible reasons for it... - bad decisions - bad (or no) buys - bad tactics - bad manager - etc It should be little wonder than football forums are where many vent their frustrations. More people write letters of complaint than letters of praise, more people let out their negative feelings than positive ones. I don't see that as being a bad fan, i think it's a NORMAL fan. Knocking your own club doesn't mean you're less of a fan. Knocking the manager doesn't mean you don't respect him. There are countless examples of clubs that have gotten themselves into a real mess (City, Leeds, Portsmouth and more). Should their fans have smiled all day long? should they have simply 'taken it'? Everton's current plight falls a LONG way short of the mess those other clubs got into, but it doesn't mean it can't happen to Everton either. There is nothing wrong with some fans constantly questioning the decisions of the club, on and off the field. Negativity (as some view it) is still passion for the club. Apathy is the killer, not negativity. After all, when someone is negative, they are typically trying to highlight a problem so that it can be corrected. It's not their fault if others focus JUST on that problem and ignore the improvement comments. "Moyes needs to play players in the best positions" is perceived as negative. "With everyone in their best position, we can win" is perceived as positive. It's the SAME message! Remember, it's easy to blame the poster for being negative, much harder to criticise ourselves for a negative interpretation. There's not an Everton fan alive who doesn't want the best for Everton. The rest is simply debate on how to achieve that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibdane Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 I don't see that as being a bad fan, i think it's a NORMAL fan. Knocking your own club doesn't mean you're less of a fan. Knocking the manager doesn't mean you don't respect him. Yes. Yep. Yeah. Yessir. THANK YOU. And no, I'm not patronizing you. I agree 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Yes. Yep. Yeah. Yessir. THANK YOU. And no, I'm not patronizing you. I agree 100%. He's a City fan Tonk. All the Everton lads think you're a git. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFC-Paul Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Oh dear this reminds me of a My dads harder then yours scene from primary school. It's a forum for OPINIONS for crying out loud people are moaning about people being negative/to positive but moaning more then anyone else which brings more negativity and gets on people's tits. Avin I respect your opinions mate but you look on any forum across the board topic wise you will see more negative "that's the opposers opinion" views then positive in most part due to people not being able to vent their frustrations any other way it the nature of the beast I'm afraid mate. Sadly as Humans we prefer to moan then praise but it is given when due...in most cases Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Paul - No one has complained about any one being too positive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFC-Paul Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Paul - No one has complained about any one being too positive. I know mate not in such terms but we have members that see the brighter side of things which has played it's part in the recent tension so I was being politically correct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) I know mate not in such terms but we have members that see the brighter side of things which has played it's part in the recent tension so I was being politically correct Try just being correct in future . Edited December 14, 2011 by Romey 1878 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFC-Paul Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Sorry but that will never happen just ask my Missus!... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted December 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Oh dear this reminds me of a My dads harder then yours scene from primary school. It's a forum for OPINIONS for crying out loud people are moaning about people being negative/to positive but moaning more then anyone else which brings more negativity and gets on people's tits. Avin I respect your opinions mate but you look on any forum across the board topic wise you will see more negative "that's the opposers opinion" views then positive in most part due to people not being able to vent their frustrations any other way it the nature of the beast I'm afraid mate. Sadly as Humans we prefer to moan then praise but it is given when due...in most cases Humans - you wouldn't go out of your way to buy one, let's face it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFC-Paul Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Humans - you wouldn't go out of your way to buy one, let's face it. Try saying that to EW he's saving his pocket money up to buy Nugent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 A lad who marks me usually on a Monday night footy match loves moyes, won't usually have a bad word said. I asked him his thoughts about the last two games and he was lost for words. He just said "it's beyond confusing - has he run out of ideas?!" I didn't go down the "I told you so" route, that's not what it's about. My belief is that moyes is the right man, he needs to be supplemented - we need synergy. Moyes is paul McCartney, talented yet determined to write ballad after ballad, after ballad. He can write yesterday, the long and winding road - we know this. Get collaborating with your adventurous opposite - get writing "a day in the life of" "help", "day tripper". You take care of the defensive element, get your attacking element sorted, bring in the outspoken maverick who will challenge you, who will say this song needs a key change, a rock instrumental - someone who can co write with you. Sorry for the analogy chaps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 very nice analogy and very apt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 WE NEED JOHN LENNON!!! Will Neil Lennon do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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