Everton vs Bolton

[Hafnia]

Wish I'd not bothered trying to do the maths now!...

 

OK, so you paid 12 million (15 million Euro) for Fell, he's been good, but he's not set the world alight. it's 4 years on - you believe he's gone up in value.

 

30Million is taking the piss too. Lets say you get 20million then?

 

the whole point wasn't to be rating players really... it was 'how much could you get if you sold all 4'...

 

50 - 60 million? more? less?

 

I suppose there's a couple of ways of looking at it...

 

You either believe there's over 60 million on the pitch with just those 4 (feasible), or you look at it the other way and say "how much for 4 players from a mid table team?".... one who is without doubt pure class (Baines), one that has a lot of potential and COULD be a great, but too early to be sure (Rodwell), a fairly decent defender that's hardly set the world alight (Jags) and a 'rising star' that you paid a record fee for, who has been good at Everton and has generally been very good, but again, hasn't set the world on fire...

 

As for City's buys... massively paid over the odds for most of them. We'd not get anywhere near our money back on 90% of the buys. Some served a purpose quite well, a fair few were total flops and one or two possibly went up in value.

 

The only clubs who (theoretically) are going to be splashing silly money for players would be Chelsea and City, and Fellaini won't be on their list. So who IS going to be forking out 30 million for him? nobody.

 

Maybe I'm totally wrong. As you say, it's very different when you see your own team week in week out and see players that aren't headline makers but are pure class for your team.

 

So, if someone came in with 20 million for him - you'd all say no?

 

Felli is a £25m-£30m player. In a year or two will be best defensive mid around.

[FanchesterCity]

I don't think he will be at Everton in a year or two.

 

His dad appears to have quite high hopes for him, and I suspect if Everton don't turn things around soon, he'll be off. I know he's signed a contract but that counts for little these days, but helps Everton get a bit more money.

 

There was talk of Arsenal liking him, but that was all mixed up with the 'not interest in Arteta' story from Wenger.... so might have been a smokescreen, or Wenger settled for second best with Arteta.

[Mogsy]

The problem with selling the likes of Fellini, baines, rodwell etc and buying more cheaper players is that we end up diluting the squad with mediocre players, which will pretty much guarantee us fighting for premership survival every season, and without wanting to sound snobby, I won't be happy to have the images of Wigan last season throwing Martinez in the air just cause we stayed up! Investment is the only way, simple as. So is BK doing enough to get this!!!???

[marcopaulo]

if we only got 20m for felli i'd rather not sell..simple as that

[Hafnia]

A pretty accurate piece

 

http://www.adifferentleague.co.uk/p6_1_12605_everton-club-focus-moyes-and-everton-at-a-crossroads-after-another-poor-home-result.html

[Blue4Ever]

Any fan who would even consider selling fellaini doesnt no what there waffling on about, yes we would probably sell him for 30 million because of the board and there liking to sell our best players but I wouldnt. you never get anywhere selling your best players then replacing them with shite championship/lower league players or none at all like the idea i read up the page, and for one its easy saying we would get 50 million+ but for one no one wants them and for 2 if they had any idea we did want to get rid offering players out then they would just put poor offers forward and with our lying stingy horrible old fuckers on the board would probably accept them anyway just to get a few quid.

[Avinalaff]

Let say, and trying to be realistic

 

Baines for 23million

Fellaini for 12 million

Rodwell for 10 million

Jags for 5 million

 

That would be 50 million... a fine amount.

 

 

Spend 30 million on 8 players (leave 20 million for wages) makes 4 million quid a player (thereabouts)

 

 

Now, we've saved the wages of the 4 outgoing players, so we're just paying for 4 extra players wages....

2 players on 50K a week = 200K a week = 0.8 million a month, therefore you'd get 18 months of their services for no additional cost (give or take)

 

4 good players out, 8 'hopefuls' in.... interesting, very interesting Mr Avin....

 

Jags £5m ? Fellaini £12m?

 

I was worried about getting a backlash when I said we'd only get £10m for Jags, but £5m?

 

Jags is an England International, regardless of our knocking him occasionally. Many rated him as the better defender in the Jags - Lescott partnership, and he can play in any position, including goal. Before his knee injury he was immense. Fellaini is probably going to be another Vierra, and 'possibly' the best defensive midfielder in the Prem. He is on a 5 year contract, and Moyes would probably take a baseball bat to anybody who suggested they could get him for £12m. We're not Accrington Stanley. Our best players are in demand.

 

I was actually referring to selling 'just' Baines.

 

Although he is essential to our needs, Drenthe is also a Left Back, so we do have cover, if we could sign Drenthe permanently. Baines could get as much as £30-40m if the right clubs came in for him, as for me, that is the kind of figure you get for the best players in the game. He is probably on 50-60k per week at least, so there is £3m per year we would save on wages too. It would be interesting to know what insurance figures clubs have on players.

 

We can pick players up like Pienaar for £4-5 million, and I'd love a team full of Pienaars. Moyes is an expert at getting great players into the side, which I think many fans have forgotten, so if he has time to plan, and get the right players in, he could make us a very strong team again, even without Baines.

 

We'd all prefer Baines stayed though, and Moyes gets to add 5 or 6 players in the window, but it is difficult to get them in January.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Avinalaff

[Avinalaff]

A pretty accurate piece

 

http://www.adifferen...ome-result.html

 

Haf, that sounds to me like it was written by a fan, who didn't really research any of his claims. Even with Arteta and Pienaar, we were not scoring goals. To say we've played the same way since 2004 is a bit cheap too. Moyes took a hoof ball side, and turned us into a great footballing side, even if we were a great footballing side that couldn't put the ball in the net. Losing Pienaar and Arteta (but for me, especially Pienaar) we took the connective arteries out of the side. We need to get those main arteries back, but the question is how. It's not just about bringing a kid in. We need to be able to cover things over a season, so our squad needs a lot of money spending on it, and that is money we don't have.

[Hafnia]

Haf, that sounds to me like it was written by a fan, who didn't really research any of his claims. Even with Arteta and Pienaar, we were not scoring goals. To say we've played the same way since 2004 is a bit cheap too. Moyes took a hoof ball side, and turned us into a great footballing side, even if we were a great footballing side that couldn't put the ball in the net. Losing Pienaar and Arteta (but for me, especially Pienaar) we took the connective arteries out of the side. We need to get those main arteries back, but the question is how. It's not just about bringing a kid in. We need to be able to cover things over a season, so our squad needs a lot of money spending on it, and that is money we don't have.

 

I dunno Av, on the whole I think the article does sum up what has gone wrong and what is wrong. Moyes has depended on Cahill for so long he can't see any alternative even now that he has lost his potency. I stated a long time ago that Moyes needed to be rid of his dependancy on Cahill for the team to evolve - this is apparent now.

 

With Arteta and Pienaar he used Cahill as the supporting striker so to speak. Arteta and Pienaar despite not necessarily being big goal getters or assist merchants were full of mischief and movement which we are so void of at the moment it's criminal. Arteta used to turn defence into attack with a first time pass - even on his bad days.

 

Games are won and lost in the engine room, Neville will no longer be a part of a midfield pairing that will dominate, he can't get to players quick enough to tackle, he can't pass, rubbish in the air and aside from shouting and pointing I do not know what he actually does. Thanks for your time Phil but the team doesn't need someone to come 5 yards away from his team mate to take the ball and return it back straight away. We need someone who can put the opposition on the back foot.

[SimonButtle]

Haf, that sounds to me like it was written by a fan, who didn't really research any of his claims. Even with Arteta and Pienaar, we were not scoring goals. To say we've played the same way since 2004 is a bit cheap too. Moyes took a hoof ball side, and turned us into a great footballing side, even if we were a great footballing side that couldn't put the ball in the net. Losing Pienaar and Arteta (but for me, especially Pienaar) we took the connective arteries out of the side. We need to get those main arteries back, but the question is how. It's not just about bringing a kid in. We need to be able to cover things over a season, so our squad needs a lot of money spending on it, and that is money we don't have.

Thing is though, that's exactly what we are now, more so than ever a hoofball side, so is it a case of we are going backwards because other teams have figured us out, and due to the limitations in numbers, Moyes has maybe run out of ideas with what we have?

[FanchesterCity]

It's the same old ground....

 

For at least the last 5 years, Moyes has spent very little, and what talent he's managed to garner has ultimately been moved on for financial reasons.

 

Another wave of 'better' players has gone and so the current best look vulnerable to bids now!.

 

Moyes has been swimming against the tide for years and done BRILLIANTLY well, but sooner or later, the tide will defeat you.

 

The problem is exacerbated by other teams progressing significantly and the investment 'window of opportunity' seemingly having been and gone (but there remains a modicum of hope).

 

Moyes job now isn't to aim for the heady heights, it's keep Everton afloat, and that means keeping them in the Prem. Whilst there's no immediate threat to that, it HAS to be the number one priority.

 

I think Moyes is a cracking manager. I think players could be lacking motivation in a club that offers them little to be motivated about (other than the pride of the shirt itself), and I think Moyes can no longer dangle ANY hope for those players to get them motivated - because the players have lost belief in any hope under the current regime.

 

The club needs oxygen, it needs to breath again, it needs release from the well intentioned adoration but smothering caress of BK. It's a marriage where love remains, but passion no longer exists.

 

Set her free BK, and let her love again. Set her free sir.

[Avinalaff]

Thing is though, that's exactly what we are now, more so than ever a hoofball side, so is it a case of we are going backwards because other teams have figured us out, and due to the limitations in numbers, Moyes has maybe run out of ideas with what we have?

 

We sold our creative midfielders. We don't have funds to replace, so yes, I guess we are moving back in that respect, but sometimes you have to step backwards to move forwards without wanting to throw clichés into the mix.

I don't think he's run out of ideas. I see us dominating the majority of games. I think it's just that Everton FC are not good enough as players.

[FanchesterCity]

We sold our creative midfielders. We don't have funds to replace, so yes, I guess we are moving back in that respect, but sometimes you have to step backwards to move forwards without wanting to throw clichés into the mix.

I don't think he's run out of ideas. I see us dominating the majority of games. I think it's just that Everton FC are not good enough as players.

 

Spot on.

 

Either he's run out of ideas (unlikely given his good track record) or the tools he has to hand aren't good enough (the more likely). Fans can say all they like about how good some players are, but the proof is in the pudding. Come the end of the season, the table will reveal the truth.

 

I feel for the man. I'm 100% convinced if they gave him 20 million he'd work miracles. It's tragic for a club of Everton's stature not to be able to spend 20million after 5 years of frugal spending.

[Bailey]

Haf, that sounds to me like it was written by a fan, who didn't really research any of his claims. Even with Arteta and Pienaar, we were not scoring goals. To say we've played the same way since 2004 is a bit cheap too. Moyes took a hoof ball side, and turned us into a great footballing side, even if we were a great footballing side that couldn't put the ball in the net. Losing Pienaar and Arteta (but for me, especially Pienaar) we took the connective arteries out of the side. We need to get those main arteries back, but the question is how. It's not just about bringing a kid in. We need to be able to cover things over a season, so our squad needs a lot of money spending on it, and that is money we don't have.

 

I actually agree with you on this Avin. The article does have some accurate points but we have gone full circle in our performances, in fact we are worse now than when Moyes first made his mark with us, yet we have much better players in the squad. Pienaar is a loss although not for his skill or quality, but mainly because of how hard he worked, the way he linked with Baines and the balance he brought to the team. We havent found that in any other winger as yet. Drenthe is a better player and will probably be the successor to Pienaar if he stays and plays games but at the moment he isnt up to his standard, and while I think Gueye could also do well in the future, no-one has been successful enough in that role.

 

We let teams play so much more than we used to and it shows in how many simple goals we are conceeding. We show them too much respect, especially at home, and if our form is really going to turn round then thats where we have to start, with or without the likes of Neville, Cahill & Saha in the squad.

 

RE Bluesky, Fellaini is comfortably the biggest 'asset' we have at the club and he is genuinley that good when he is allowed to sit in front of the defence and sweep everything up in front of him. Moyes 'wastes' him IMO by sharing his repsonsibilies because he can do it all himself. The sooner he realises that, we can play with two more attacking players in midfield and play more positive and fluid football.

[Bailey]

We sold our creative midfielders. We don't have funds to replace, so yes, I guess we are moving back in that respect, but sometimes you have to step backwards to move forwards without wanting to throw clichés into the mix.

I don't think he's run out of ideas. I see us dominating the majority of games. I think it's just that Everton FC are not good enough as players.

 

I agree with what you are saying to an extent but while we are 'dominating' games, we dont create very many chances and thats what it boils down to. We have showed in glimpses that we can go up a gear (Swansea 20mins before half time) so the players can do it, but sadly not regularly enough.

 

We do lack a creative midfielder especially if Barkley isnt going to be used, Drenthe is injured and Osman is on the wing and that would be first on my transfer list if I was Moyes. However, if we are going to play in our normal 4-5-1 with 2 defensive midfielders they wont be able to influence the game properly and we are back to square one. Maybe if we had someone of true quality he would play with 3 natural midfielders but I dont see it happening at the moment.

[FanchesterCity]

I think Baines is your best asset (but leftbacks aren't really at the center of things), but clearly both are considered the very lifeblood of the team at the moment.... and some would say... you can't put a price on that (as an Everton fan).

 

What I'm struggling to understand between the Everton fans is:

 

Many of you believe he's a great manager, and yet you think he's not playing players in their best position, or to their strengths. IF he's a great manager (and knows more about the game than we do) then it's hard to understand how could be be so wrong.

And if he IS so wrong, then should he be managing Everton at all?

[marcopaulo]

manager is more than what he does on the pitch and overall he is great...just too stubborn to evolve with football and now his on the pitch tactics and attitude do not work

[FanchesterCity]

manager is more than what he does on the pitch and overall he is great...just too stubborn to evolve with football and now his on the pitch tactics and attitude do not work

 

Then that must ultimately come to a conclusion:

 

Change his way, or go.

[Bailey]

I think Baines is your best asset (but leftbacks aren't really at the center of things), but clearly both are considered the very lifeblood of the team at the moment.... and some would say... you can't put a price on that (as an Everton fan).

 

What I'm struggling to understand between the Everton fans is:

 

Many of you believe he's a great manager, and yet you think he's not playing players in their best position, or to their strengths. IF he's a great manager (and knows more about the game than we do) then it's hard to understand how could be be so wrong.

And if he IS so wrong, then should he be managing Everton at all?

 

If I am honest I cant answer this because I really dont know. Moyes is synonomous with Everton and I cant imagine the club without him in someways BUT I personally dont think he is doing the basics of his job well at the moment (or for the last 12months (maybe more)).

 

Put it this way, based on performances, transfers (loans) etc etc over the last 12-18months, should he still be managing Everton? Probably not. Should he still be manager over his whole tenure? Then probably yes.

 

He has certainly had his hands tied, but recently he hasnt got the best out of what he does have, which ironically is what made him so successful in the first place!

[marcopaulo]

Then that must ultimately come to a conclusion:

 

Change his way, or go.

 

i'm not disagreein

[Hafnia]

If you judge moyes in the same way that economists track the economy, then he is in recession. Year on year he is showing as negative, confidence has dropped. You soon forget the boom years when you are eating beans on toast.

 

He needs to call out his paymasters, he won't though. They put him on £70k a week. He's being noble and will go out on his shield (kenwright)

[pete0]

If you judge moyes in the same way that economists track the economy, then he is in recession. Year on year he is showing as negative, confidence has dropped. You soon forget the boom years when you are eating beans on toast.

 

He needs to call out his paymasters, he won't though. They put him on £70k a week. He's being noble and will go out on his shield (kenwright)

More like stagflation

[Avinalaff]

Then that must ultimately come to a conclusion:

 

Change his way, or go.

 

Oi !

 

Stop stirring mate.

[chicagoblue]

Howard

 

Shame there's no chant for him except "USA, USA, USA!"

 

Bolton kit sure is ugly.

 

When I went to USA games my favourite was always (to the tune of Mary Poppins):

 

Tim Timeree

Tim Timeree

Tim, Tim, Teroo

We've Got Tim Howard

And he says Fuck you!

 

could he say anythin else? its his fuckin fault did he take the blame for it? has he taken the blame for playin as romey so brilliantly put it an et impressionist? has he taken the blame for bein more negative than -932 and playin 7 defenders in one game? has he taken the blame for standing by the laziest, fuckwitty, wankshaft, bag of useless shite, soppiest french baguette when he couldn't score in a brothel with a 12 inch dick and a wallet the size of a whale omelette? infact that's probably an insult to bread cos a fuckin baguette might chase the ball down more...FUCK ME

 

Well said, sir.

 

--

 

Pretty down about all of this. I think I'll go read the rumours and pretend like we have money.

[marcopaulo]

Oi !

 

Stop stirring mate.

 

he's entitled to his opinion and was just replyin to what i said

[Avinalaff]

he's entitled to his opinion and was just replyin to what i said

 

Bad enough Everton fans moaning at Moyes without City fans doing it. He's entitled to his opinion, but a little tact wouldn't hurt.

[FanchesterCity]

It's not an opinion. It's a logical conclusion in response to someone else's assertion.

 

MY view is that Moyes is a great manager and that Everton's troubles lie firmly at the feet of the board.

 

I would keep Moyes, and find him 20 million, which I believe he'd use well and get Everton in the top 6-8.

[TheOutlaw]

We simply wasn't good enough. First half we had a positive start but second half was just terrible.