marcopaulo Posted January 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 when are we allowed to start questioning whether or not he should leave without gettin whinged at? cos i feel the time is coming soon...his soundbites are embarrassing as are his team selections and tactics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanchesterCity Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 Anyone who loves their club will eventually come to a point where they look at the manager and wonder if it's time (or a leading star player of the past). I suppose it's like divorce. It's not a question of not being a loyal fan, or not offering the 'right' support to the team / manager, it's simply trying to look at the best interests of the club, and casting your eye over EVERY aspect, and in once in a while, that will include the manager. Having such a good record with Everton buys him a lot of respect and a fair amount of leeway, but it doesn't make anybody bigger than the club and exempt from scrutiny. And, if time and again you find yourselves having to resort to past achievements rather than current ones, then it's time. Usually because of the emotional attachment, the decision is prolonged 2 years more than it should be.... rather like divorce again. Folks (afterwards) end up saying ... we went too long with them, the signs were there... etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 It's frustrating watching us play at the moment. We really have little class in attack. Fed up seeing Neville jogging around, looking like he wants to appear active, yet not really contributing. There is too much distance between our players in order to keep passing play flowing and sharp. We need closer positional play, and better group movement. I don't see where it will come from. Sell a few guys and get some kids in that can be moulded, as it seems like Moyes is trying to teach old dogs new tricks, and he's wasting his time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted January 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 moyes is one of the old dogs i think though avin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 moyes is one of the old dogs i think though avin We were playing great stuff though not too long ago. What changed? We lost Pienaar, Arteta, and a little earlier Lescott. Yak went too, but he wasn't really scoring any way, as as much as we played superb football for 6 months, we couldn't buy a goal. A few of the players are older, but some are better now than they were then, such as Distin, Hibbert, Osman, maybe even Fellaini. If Moyes were to leave, who could get this current squad playing again? I think it's too tired, and has lacked investment. If it does happen that Moyes leaves, I think he will leave feeling he never really had the chance to perform on a level field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutmegwolf203 Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 We were playing great stuff though not too long ago. What changed? We lost Pienaar, Arteta, and a little earlier Lescott. Yak went too, but he wasn't really scoring any way, as as much as we played superb football for 6 months, we couldn't buy a goal. A few of the players are older, but some are better now than they were then, such as Distin, Hibbert, Osman, maybe even Fellaini. If Moyes were to leave, who could get this current squad playing again? I think it's too tired, and has lacked investment. If it does happen that Moyes leaves, I think he will leave feeling he never really had the chance to perform on a level field. It's hard to call for someone's job but, I have to believe that another mind would have at least looked at their options differently. So many valid things can be said about not being a level financial playing field but even the move of taking Neville back out of the squad (as you mentioned him being one of the old dogs) and replacing him with someone more capable would have made a difference. Of course, without knowing everything that goes on with the team it's hard to make accurate assessments. But my opinion is Neville has no business playing, I don't think Moyes believes he's wasting time as you say, he believes he's picked the best option. Someone made a good point about Gueye certainly playing well enough for a start, so why did the midfield have to get reshuffled? We know he wasn't injured because he came on anyways. No ill feeling towards Moyes at all really but...the man just can't pick a team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 I turned off the telli with 2 minutes to go. Couldnt bear to watch the final whistle. I was kinda hoping to miss out on an equiliser too. You know how you sometimes feel that if you werent watching the team might have wom the game. Thats the way I felt last night. (maybe its just me and no-one ever feels that way) Its deffo time for change, I havent critisised DM before, well not that much and not seriously, but something is wrong. He seems to not care about the club. About his own reputation as a manager. He was on top of the world a couple of years ago. SAF's replacement. Greatest manager in the league. Performed miracles with the club. We all worshiped him. (which makes it harder to critisise him now) but he is off his f*ing rocker now. Neville? Sahara? (My new nick name for him because of the dry spell he is in) Cahill? Osman on wing? Heitinga in midfield? (instead of playing him next to Jags with Distin on bench and Osman in middle) Id actually prefer Ani on the left wing. Why didnt Ani get a chance? He scored in the last game. We were unlucky with injuries, but still, why bring on Cahill? He is another person that I find hard to critisise btw. I love him, he has been a hero for so long. He does not deserve this. He should not become a person that the fans get dissappointed with. He deserves more. - Still he really is wank at the moment. Should be a hero somewhere else. I hope he does go, and I hope he proves everyone wrong. I hope that we regret ever selling him. I hope people forget how bad he was at the end. Saha is pretty much the same, but he has nowhere near the same status for me as Cahill. Be gone. Good bye. Its time to play the youngsters. Ive said it before and I didnt feel that many of you agreed. I dont think Everton will be relegated, but I feel that next season is in jeopardy and we need to give the youngsters time to settle into the prem, right now, in preperation for next season. Its going to be a battle to avoid relegation next season. I can feel it in my bones. Give Barkley, Maggie, Vellios etc as much time as possible now. Saha, Cahill, Neville (why the hell didnt we accept the offer from Spurs) should all step down from now on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted January 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 We were playing great stuff though not too long ago. What changed? We lost Pienaar, Arteta, and a little earlier Lescott. Yak went too, but he wasn't really scoring any way, as as much as we played superb football for 6 months, we couldn't buy a goal. A few of the players are older, but some are better now than they were then, such as Distin, Hibbert, Osman, maybe even Fellaini. If Moyes were to leave, who could get this current squad playing again? I think it's too tired, and has lacked investment. If it does happen that Moyes leaves, I think he will leave feeling he never really had the chance to perform on a level field. the players are older..these things happen..cahill, saha and neville for sure cannot do it anymore...osman can't do it on the wing which has been proven time and time and time and time again..if we all know it why doesn't moyes? if we can all see how shit neville is why can't moyes? as haf said if barkley is no better than that then sell him now for whatever hype he still has left Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted January 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 that example only works if the team look to give a shit bluesky..i can take a bad result on the chin if it doesn't go our way on the night as long as it looks like the lads are tryin...but it didn't..they just don't look to give the slightest iota of a fuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 we have no third or fourth gear - seriously seriously worrying. What does Moyes do with them in training? Does he make Barkley play in a pair of Doctor Martins? - because in all seriousness I have watched him in pre season, seen his impact early on in the season and if moyes things he's not quite right in training, I want to know why... there is no way whatsoever he should not have had any game time. Moyes has gone from being untouchable with the fans to being questionable - and in many case untenable. I have thought he was questionable a good while ago, now.... well let's just leave that eh. He should have apologised to the fans for that last night and refunded their admission - it was that bad. Farce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 To summarise our attacking qualities - Our Keeper (Tim Howard) has scored as many goals as our 'strike' partnership this season (Cahill, Saha) and more goals than Tim Cahill has achieved in over a year. As highlighted earlier, it took Tim 17 minutes to touch the ball...as a centre midefielder...arguably the most involved position on the pitch...oh friggin dear. I'll pack your gear sunshine.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 To summarise our attacking qualities - Our Keeper (Tim Howard) has scored as many goals as our 'strike' partnership this season (Cahill, Saha) and more goals than Tim Cahill has achieved in over a year. As highlighted earlier, it took Tim 17 minutes to touch the ball...as a centre midefielder...arguably the most involved position on the pitch...oh friggin dear. I'll pack your gear sunshine.... I will help you mate, sad to see a great idol falling like he is. I really don't know what to say after that, there is so much but im not sure where to start tbh, It was good to see 2 up front finally but if they are going to get no service and just run in front of each other all the time then it's pointless, and Saha should not be starting, he has got to that point were he is just tripping over the ball every time he is in a shooting position, but to start with Neville and Heitinga against Bolton who are bottom of the league. That is just breeding negativity to the players and fans, and i have no idea what Moyes's thinking was with it, Osman wasted out on the left then got injured eventually. Also Rodwell, who made that decision, because it was a fucking stupid one, and if it was the physio or Moyes then either needs a kick up the arse, because clearly he was'nt fit, and im starting to think we should cash in with him, as he clearly is injury prone. If Phil Neville ever starts another game for the club then Moyes needs his head reading, the guy is useless and whilst he may be good in the dressing room he is crap on the pitch and he is costing us games at times with his multitude of misplaced passes and he is often joined in that club with Hibbert who seems to only have the long pass in his collection, passing over 6 yards seems to be too difficult for him What gets me the most about last night is that looking at the conditions why would you play hoofball in that? you have to play along the ground and try to keep control, and thats down to Moyes and the players, you can't blame Blue Bill for that, time for Moyes and the Players to stand up and be counted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 Sell a few guys and get some kids in that can be moulded, as it seems like Moyes is trying to teach old dogs new tricks, and he's wasting his time. That's a bit of a turnaround from you, Av. Not that long ago you were against playing kids and sticking with the decisions Moyes makes because he obviously knows what he's doing. I'm glad you've seen the light . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memmaclub Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 I think we have to gamble on youth for the rest of the season. We have to give players like Barkley drenthe even vic a run of 10 games. And see if they can cut it. I don't think the defence is in too bad a shape. But midfield should be gaye Ozzie felli drenthe With anichbe staq or Vellios up front. Two quick wingers a solid DM to hold the ball up and play a bit and issue to pull the strings. I think with vic getting on the ball and running at ppl and Vellios as a tall poacher type we may actually learn to play the right way. Change Barkley for Ozzie and rodwell for felli no probs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 Osman on the wing - that is a clear indication that Moyes has absolutely no idea what he is doing at the moment - IMO Gueye on the left, Osman in the middle, neville on the bench or in reserves - two defensive midfielders with no ability to create, have no movement or ability to beat a man. Just dour, pathetic rubbish. If Moyes hadn't stabilised this club in the early days and pushed top 4 - he would be sacked by now. A new owner that comes in could spell his departure. Regardless of his lack of finances, that squad is better than this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodisonRoad Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 (edited) No words can describe how bad we were last night. I dont think Bolton had a single International in their team apart from Cahill. We had about 7, after Jack and Cahill came on. Surely something has to be wrong there? Personally, i think it's the way they were set out tactically, as opposed to the players not giving a shit, and i just echo everybody else's concern when i say some of the tactical decisions again were baffling to say the least. I also hope that because we played 4-4-2 last night and were shite, Moyes hasnt taken this as a massive "Told you so" to all the fans giving him stick for playing 4-5-1 because yesterday we played with 2 defenders as our "creative influence" in the middle of the park, but we had an experienced centre midfielder, who on his day is probably the best creative player we have, and is proven to play his best in the centre of the park on the left? What else could you possibly expect? On an other note, i think something has to be going on with Barkley, wether its he is already lined up to be sold, or he has had a falling out with Moyes, i have no idea, but i think his last game was a substitute appearance against Man Utd?? Either David Moyes is a moron and thinks he can have an impact against Utd, but not against Bolton, WBA, Norwich or Swansea, Orrr Something is wrong behind the scene's, i.e he has fallen out with Moyes, or he is going to be sold, so we dont want to risk injury. Edited January 5, 2012 by GoodisonRoad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 On an other note, i think something has to be going on with Barkley, wether its he is already lined up to be sold, or he has had a falling out with Moyes, i have no idea, but i think his last game was a substitute appearance against Man Utd?? Either David Moyes is a moron and thinks he can have an impact against Utd, but not against Bolton, WBA, Norwich or Swansea, Orrr Something is wrong behind the scene's, i.e he has fallen out with Moyes, or he is going to be sold, so we dont want to risk injury. I have serious, serious concerns regarding this. Capello already knows everything about Barkley, he's played in competetive Under 21 level football for England which is a high standard. Moyes has issues about his defensive abilities apparently? Well I have more concerns about Moyes managerial capabilities - the lad can play, he is raw but talented which is more than I can say for the majority those that moyes stays loyal with... My gut feeling is that Barkley may be a 'big shot' in training - respects no reputations and maybe showboats a bit. He ain't gonna like that is he davie? After all he was an honest, centre half jobber. I had a suspicion that he clamped down on Rooney's youthful spark and that was what caused friction between them. - Again - just a gut feeling. If he is everything Phil Neville isn't then get him in now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanchesterCity Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 Lots has changed... a) Better players have left Current players have got older c) Other teams have improved, some significantly d) The club's 'state' has started to become a genuine issue - making it a less attractive place to come, and less able to afford the quality Everton would normally expect. e) The fans are losing patience, partly due to performances, and partly in frustration at the club in general f) At some point, Everton and Moyes' lack of spending (and I don't mean mega bucks spending) was going to come home to roost. You can get away with it for a couple of years, but not forever. At least two former competitors (Spurs and City) have really moved forwards (forget about how / why), and that's had a knock on effect of nudging Villa and Everton out of the top 6. Teams like Stoke have started to establish a brand of football that's not pretty but is effective and are now candidates for nudging better footballing sides, like Villa and Everton even further into mid-tabledom. The situation of 3-4 years ago simply isn't the situation now. Everton fans don't seem to be the type to welcome negative football, and prefer to see a bit of skill, positive thinking and entertainment (but not gung-ho craziness). Sadly, without a decent forward lineup, that's not happening and it's upsetting so see (for Everton fans). If folks accept that the situation's changed for Everton, all that's left is to say "ok, we're now a club in mid-tabledom BUT..." and start looking at the positives from there... 1) Whilst you're unlikely to magically become a top 6 side again without investment, you ARE a club that is normally associated with being at the top, so once the investment comes in, there's every hope you'll get back there. 2) Whilst crowd numbers are down, you're not alone (Villa) in this, and STILL, you're a very well supported club. Most clubs don't get the crowds Everton do, even when a lot of the fans are voting with their feet. They'll be back once the 'feeling' around the club improves. 3) Moyes' got an incredible track record for getting the most out of players. A few recent performances aside, and in the knowledge that you don't have money to spend, isn't Moyes just about the best man to have in such a situation? You just have to (sadly) lower the expectation a little and be thankful you're not in freefall like City, Newcastle, Leeds etc once were. 4) There are younger players at the club coming through that show a lot of promise, and a few more established players that are still the envy of many clubs. Maybe not littered with them as you once were, but you do still have 3-4 that fit the description. It gives you options that other clubs don't have - to sell for a fair whack, or keep. 5) You have a chairman that appears to accept he can't give Everton what they need and is attempting to find a new owner for the club. If you put the issues with BK to one side and just work on the basic premise of selling to a better equipped owner, this is a positive (as opposed to a chairman who just won't accept it's time to go and takes you down with him). Is it truly THAT bad? Yes it's bad for Everton by their usual standards, but it's not THAT bad in the grand scheme of things. It's just mid-table blues (pardon the pun), inconsistent performances and players that aren't really the usual Everton standard. My honest gut feeling is that the BK situation / lack of money is simply a cancer in the club that spreads negativity and sooner or later starts affecting club and fan morale, and ultimately player/team performances. When the club looks to be making no real effort to progress on the pitch, then the players will eventually lost motivation. Imagine Moyes as your manager at work, telling you that you won't be promoted or given a pay rise this time, but 'soon'.... for a while, if he's good, he can still fill you with hope... and you work even harder to secure that promotion / pay rise. Eventually though, after a couple of years, those talks stop working. You know the money's not there. He explains that the money isn't there, and you accept it's not HIS fault, it's the club. After another two years of THAT, you no longer care whose fault it is, the fact remains, you're stuck in a dead end job. Maybe, just maybe, that's what happens at clubs when there's no significant investment for 4/5 years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 to try and bring a little positivity to us all, it was a dire performance against Notlob last season which sparked our rise up the table.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodisonRoad Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 I have serious, serious concerns regarding this. Capello already knows everything about Barkley, he's played in competetive Under 21 level football for England which is a high standard. Moyes has issues about his defensive abilities apparently? Well I have more concerns about Moyes managerial capabilities - the lad can play, he is raw but talented which is more than I can say for the majority those that moyes stays loyal with... My gut feeling is that Barkley may be a 'big shot' in training - respects no reputations and maybe showboats a bit. He ain't gonna like that is he davie? After all he was an honest, centre half jobber. I had a suspicion that he clamped down on Rooney's youthful spark and that was what caused friction between them. - Again - just a gut feeling. If he is everything Phil Neville isn't then get him in now. Unfortunately, this is also a feeling i share. I remember in that Interview Barkley gave a few weeks (or months) ago that he was asked about training and he started talking about how he had megged Cahill and how he was doing this and that, he wasnt being cocky about it, he was just explaining how he loved to be able to get the chance to do those things, and i think that showed a great attitude in the lad, and may be the reason he hasnt spat his dummy out as of yet. But i think a big part of why he isnt playing is basically because of his unpredictability. And that, as we all know is what David Moyes has nightmares about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodisonRoad Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 to try and bring a little positivity to us all, it was a dire performance against Notlob last season which sparked our rise up the table.... But didnt we get a draw in that game? 2-2 with a late beckford goal, great goal as i remember aswell. And Notlob werent bottom of the league last year, they actually looked a decent outfit. Sorry, but today isnt the today to be optomistic. Que Avin.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 But didnt we get a draw in that game? 2-2 with a late beckford goal, great goal as i remember aswell. And Notlob werent bottom of the league last year, they actually looked a decent outfit. Sorry, but today isnt the today to be optomistic. Que Avin.... meant the game at the Reebok were we were so bad, not the draw at Goodison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodisonRoad Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 meant the game at the Reebok were we were so bad, not the draw at Goodison. Ahh, apologies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_E Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 Why can't we just line-up like this: http://www.footballuser.com/306442/Everton Play possession-based football. We have players who can pick passes in the middle. We have pace and skill out wide. Why not fucking play 'm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 Why can't we just line-up like this: http://www.footballu.../306442/Everton Play possession-based football. We have players who can pick passes in the middle. We have pace and skill out wide. Why not fucking play 'm? YES PLEASE!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 Why can't we just line-up like this: http://www.footballu.../306442/Everton Play possession-based football. We have players who can pick passes in the middle. We have pace and skill out wide. Why not fucking play 'm? YES PLEASE!!!! Genuinely thats how i'd like him to play them from now on...if he's going to persist with Saha, give him support in LD and RRD, otherwise drop the c**t. Waste of space. I've said that formation for a while now, with both 'wingers' on their alternate feet so that they have to drop inside and support. Crosses are pointless with Saha, it needs to be at his feet, that formation would work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted January 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 for me rodwell isn't injury prone...he's just still injured simple as that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 Can some one please explain what the feck Moyes was thinking last night? I really can't imagine what logic he was using when picking that side. 442 with Heitinga and Neville, was one meant to fill in as a box-to-box role or just there to lump it to two players to do it alone? If Moyes was playing footy manager he'd be sacked in the morning after that, pity he weren't jus playing a computer game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 Moyes playing 4-4-2 last night was like asking a petulant child to make you a cup of tea, they make it, bring it to you and when you taste it you realise they have put salt in it so that you don't ask them to make one again. I'm sure it wasn't a case of that - but if he thinks he has listened to the fans he ain't. In my anger i've been on several forums and the overwhelming feeling is: Neville is finished Cahill is finished Osman is not a winger Heitinga is not a midfielder Saha is lazy and should be sold Barkley not playing is a joke So why we applaud your 4-4-2 gesture Davie, can you now get to work on these issues - maybe a 4-4-2 made up of the correct players in the right positions may work??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beard Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 (edited) Moyes playing 4-4-2 last night was like asking a petulant child to make you a cup of tea, they make it, bring it to you and when you taste it you realise they have put salt in it so that you don't ask them to make one again. I'm sure it wasn't a case of that - but if he thinks he has listened to the fans he ain't. In my anger i've been on several forums and the overwhelming feeling is: Neville is finished Cahill is finished Osman is not a winger Heitinga is not a midfielder Saha is lazy and should be sold Barkley not playing is a joke So why we applaud your 4-4-2 gesture Davie, can you now get to work on these issues - maybe a 4-4-2 made up of the correct players in the right positions may work??? I have to agree with what Haf has said. It was though he played the 4-4-2 to prove a point. The point being that the 4-4-2 set up, with out of form players in out of position roles, he sent out was worse than the 4-5-1 set up he normally puts out. It was cringeworthy to see the bottom side play us off the park by players adapting to the gale force winds, i.e passing the ball on the floor. The number of times we hoofed it to Stracquilursi was embarassing, Nothing to take from that game apart from Moyes realising that we probably play the worst football right now in the Premiership. Edited January 6, 2012 by StevO fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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