Starting Again

[Lowensda]

Hypothetically speaking, should David Moyes leave, who would be happy to 'Start Again'?

 

What I mean by that, is start building a 'team' ala Althetic Bilbao or Ajax? We've got some big earners now in our first team squad and some of them just don't seem "hungry" enough for me. They turn up, play, get paid. I understand that this is true for the majority of professional footballers but I'd rather see 'winners' and triers within the squad.

 

A lot has been made of David Moyes and his youth policy, some agree it works, others don't but i'm in a position now, where i'd like us to start afresh. I wouldn't care if we languished mid-table for a season or two, if it meant gelling a new breed of players togther. Ajax have proved it on a much larger scale. Yes, they're an incredibly big club. CL nearly every year, one of the best academies in Europe but so are Everton!! Ok, so we're not CL contenders every year but we've got a great youth set-up and we're always hearing about the great players and kids that we're bringing through, yet rarely get to see them play.

 

Ajax have created a team. A team where each man (or boy depending on how old they are aha) know their positions. They know they have to go out and wear the red and white proudly. They have to prove that they're good enough for the biggest club in Holland and so far, it's working. Positively creating a team combined with youth and experience is hard work, it takes time (look at Villa and Liverpool). They've taken a bashing from their supporters and pundits alike but they're slowly and surely going to create something 'better' than what they had. If Villa survive, they'll be twice the team next season, I have that feeling. The shite on the other hand, seem to slowly be pulling it back from a torrid opening half to the season, it'll only benefit them in the future. If they add some consistancy to their game, they'll be a good (not great (yet)) team again.

 

Marcelo Bielsa, did (or is doing) a similar thing at Athletic Bilboa. Only recruiting Basque players. It's a little inconsistent still but they play some of the best football i've ever seen. If we did "start again" and we were 10th/11th come the end of the season but playing some beautiful, hardworking football, not afraid to "have a go", I think i'd be quite content. It would be building for the future for sure and not a quick fix but I wouldn't mind?

 

This idea has come about from the frustrations of recent showings and last nights "substitutions". I felt like crying.

 

Some of you state that our younger players "aren't good enough yet"...if the comparison is made against our current first team squad, then only one name should really ring out, Steven Naismith. If we're using SN as a marker to judge how good our kids are, then they must be atrocious and we really do have to start again.

 

Some of our kids ARE good enough. I sense they are. The little time I've seen them play for Everton or reading the reports about how well they've done out on loan at their respective clubs, I genuinely believe they are good enough. Lundstrum is the latest youngster to get glowing reviews, yes it's League one but he's bossed their last two games...shown technical ability above and beyond anyone in that team/league. If someone would like to point out "but it's League one"...a League TWO team in Oldham Athletic knocked a nearly full strength Liverpool out of the FA cup and also forced our strongest 11 into a replay. A moto I stand by, "if you're good enough, you're old enough" and with enough opportunities I am genuinely, genuinely convinced that some of our lads would be.

 

5 Who ARE good enough (IMO)

• Barkley - Has been a little inconsistent but had he been given the game time, I think it'd be ironed out and he'd grow consistency in his game. No reason he couldn't be used as a substitute at the end of games, when Ossie or Pienaar grow tired.
  

• Duffy - Shown at Burnley and Scunthorpe respectively, he's a monster and got a great head on his shoulders. Our defense have been shakey at best, set-piece defending have been crying for a fearless defender to throw everything at the ball.
  

• Lundstrum - See above.
  

• Vellios - Not good enough to start but has shown in the times that he has been used as a substitute, he can be a threat. He can bully defenders and get them thinking about turning toward goal. I love Vellios. He's sexy as hell and i think more game time would truly benefit his game.
  

• Oviedo - Ok, not technically a youngster but a decent outlay for seeing out games. Can run...and run. Got technical ability. Just needs to improve on his decision making but the signs are there. Pienaar has been looking very leggy of late, come the end of games and he needs relieving slightly earlier than the 88th minute.
  

 

So with those in mind, who would I release? By the way, this is my opinion and not influenced by others.

• Heitinga - Sell, for whatever we can get. Massive earner, needs to get off the books.
  
• Neville - From playing, assistant coaching, fine. No more playing please.
  
• Fellaini - Get the money for other youngsters, good ones!
  

 

Who would I drop?

• Howard - Great back up keeper, I shit myself every time a ball goes into the area.
  
• Distin - Just not showing enough for me, reliable yes but seeming less and less like his former self.
  
• Pienaar - Controversial I know but as a 'Winger' or Wide player, he's just not been the same player as last year. Could it be fatigue? Possibly. I just don't get him atm.
  
• Jelavic - Yes, it might be a 'blip' but Mirallas looks far more dangerous as a striker, his finishing it clinical. I want to see Super Kev upfront...get back to Olympiakos goal scoring.
  

 

What do we need?

• A wide man. A proper one. Not a striker playing on the wing. Or a CM playing on the wing. A proper winger. Someone with pace and tekkers, would be delightful.
  
• Striker. Still need one, not sure who we could get but someone dangerous, like Wolfswinkel or Lukaku.
  

 

I've forgotten what else I wanted to say and even if I could, I've forgotten how to structure sentences, so this is a problem. But to summarise I'm willing to start again, take two years to mount a serious push at the "glass ceiling" which is the top 4. Take time to encourage our youth, to get them playing football and give our team a 'driving spirit' to succeed. I want Everton to be dangerous, to not just 'look for a point' ever, I want to approach matches to win...ruthlessly. I'd rather we went all out for a win and lost 5-4....just go out for blood. I want hunger and desire to be bought back into the team, i'm missing the grit and determination. When we were in Europe, we had it, we wanted to win because we hadn't experienced it before (that team)...I want that again. I want to win.

[GoodisonRoad]

Don't think there is anything there I could disagree with Ten, very well put. I especially agree about Vellios! () I think he needs and deserves a lot more game time than he's getting, I don't think he's come on once and just "blended" in as it were, he always seems to be involved in an attack whether its finishing it or getting a flick on or what ever, and he's got pretty good feet too. I've said it before, he reminds me a lot of Lewandowski, the way he plays.

 

I, like you think a big shake up is needed If we are looking at the long term here, we need to get youth players more game time and start building our team around the likes of Barkley, Vellios and Lundstram. I really can't see Moyes doing that, so IMO I think it would be a good time for him to go, I just hope we get the right guy for the job to start us off in a new era and "evolve" the club a bit. Sadly I can't see that happening either.

[pete0]

http://www.evertonfc.com/evertontv/home/8390

I'd add McAleny and Junior to the fringe players who should have had more first team opportunities. Also any right back at the club, Jags there was just wrong, up there with Walter playing Steve Watson upfront.

 

I'd get rid of Jags over Heitinga as he's older and would bring in more revenue. If the new manager is any good he should be able to get the best out of Heitinga, rather than play it safe with the old English dog style of Jags. Chelsea's John Terry aside I can't think of many defenders like Jagielka in the top European sides.

[Lowensda]

More Lads I missed out (disgracefully) - Thanks for reminding me Pete.

 

These lads should be benching it regularly or if not soon.

 

Stones, Garbutt, McAleny, Junior, Kennedy....is that him as number 10 in that highlight reel? Awesome.

 

GR - You'd never tell we have a slight bro'mance on him (Vellios) aha

[GoodisonRoad]

GR - You'd never tell we have a slight bro'mance on him (Vellios) aha

 

Dont know what your talking about mate!

[Steve_E]

McAleney had a serious injury, hasn't he?

[pete0]

McAleney had a serious injury, hasn't he?

http://www.tribalfootball.com/articles/everton-u21-coach-stubbs-conor-mcaleny-back-very-best-3838951

 

Been fit for a couple of months.

[Romey 1878]

Can't really add anything to what's already been said tbh, I agree with it all.

 

I think we need to be a bit more careful than Villa and go more the Liverpool route I.E. blend the youth with experience.

[Bailey]

Yep I agree too and given the status of the club, I think it is the only way we could move forward in the long term (IE cant afford big wages or transfer fees & we need to buy players cheaper and sell them on at a bigger price).

 

We have already shown that we have a nose for a good young player and a good academy. The likes of Baxter, Mustafi and Wallace might never quite make it to the Premiership but we simply cant afford to let these players go on a free.

 

We definitely need a gradual shake up. The dead wood needs to make way and the young players need to be given a chance.

[Avinalaff]

To start again, you'd have to presume what we have doesn't work, and I think that would be far from the truth.

 

The only thing stopping us from being successful is the money of the teams above us. The answer for me isn't to try and match them, which is what those in favour of take over investment want, but to bring those money teams back down to the rest of us.

 

How long off are we before somebody pays a billion for a player?

 

It has to stop, and clubs like ours are the epitome of doing everything right, and starting again isn't the way forward, as no matter what we do, we will not compete against money sides, as even if we found 11 players who together, were the best team in the world, the money teams would take them from us piece by piece, one way or another.

[SimonButtle]

I said ages ago about doing this sort of thing from the point of just helping us clear the debts, i think it's a great idea. All id add is that imo we would need to sign more than a winger and a striker, probably another center back, pace through the middle and most importantly another goalkeeper. If we are going to build a new team then lets start at the back with a good keeper.

[Dalziel Kane]

Why should we start again, are the majority of the players we have already not good enough ? Ok, there's some dead weight, but a full clearance seems unnecessary. As mentioned, we don't have the finances to compete with some of the other names in the league but for now I just want to see the season out and see where it gets us, before any talk of greater adjustments. Moyes has yet to make a decision, and some players futures remain unclear but only want to concentrate on the remainder of this season and there's still everything to play for. Never was one for a spring clearout.

[Droobie]

Good OP... i'm wondering though, if Moyes goes, and we drop & sell the players mentioned - is the remaining team good enough to stay in the EPL? I would hate to lose our manager, then clear out 50% of the senior team and then be fighting for relegation. This isn't Football Manager where we can take gambles like that. I think it would be too risky to make wholesale changes with the current owner & board. Perhaps if we had a billionaire sugar daddy - yes.

[Bailey]

 

It has to stop, and clubs like ours are the epitome of doing everything right, and starting again isn't the way forward, as no matter what we do, we will not compete against money sides, as even if we found 11 players who together, were the best team in the world, the money teams would take them from us piece by piece, one way or another.

 

At least then we would be richer as well! ¦)

 

[Dalziel Kane]

Even if we had the best XI in the world or the team of Hungary '54, I don't even think we would get very far with Moyes dour tactics and defensive strategies, and safety first policies etc. If we were to start again for arguments sake, Moyes would have to be in the percentage of dead wood that was taken out of the club, but it's all about opinions. May not be for everyone, but I believe that's the position we have ourselves.

[GoodisonRoad]

It has to stop, and clubs like ours are the epitome of doing everything right, and starting again isn't the way forward, as no matter what we do, we will not compete against money sides, as even if we found 11 players who together, were the best team in the world, the money teams would take them from us piece by piece, one way or another.

 

I know what you're saying Av, but i think your looking at it a bit differently.

 

Using Leon Britton as an example, he's a player who fits into Swansea's system perfectly and he is the centre of their passing game. Say Lundstram comes in and does a similar thing for us in a few years and he's playing really well and City offer us £20million for him, we accept and go and buy another youngster or a like for like or what ever. There's no guarantee Lundstram is going to be a success for City because he was a success for us, though this is all hypothetical of course. We then gradually build ourselves up (levelling out the money we receive between buying replacements/investing in youth and paying off our debt) until we're in a financial position to say "no" to the big teams, thats the only way we're going to continually challenge the "big teams" without a billionaire owner. I know this all seems like im living in "football manager land" but it can work, there is no reason why it cant, it wont be easy and it will take a while but in the long term its the only sustainable way unless you have an owner with deep pockets.

[Steve_E]

Dortmund and Feyenoord are good examples of teams turning to their youth setups (because they had to due to financial trouble) to great success as well. Feyenoord just beat PSV this weekend with 6 players in their starting eleven being 21 or under and products of their academy. 10 of their starters were Dutch btw.

[mcirony]

Why is it that everyone in the football world thinks Everton is the model football club, except for Evertonians?!

 

Arsenal have been trying to build a 'team' for 8 years and it hasn't worked, even though they have more money and draw than us to get the best youngsters in the world. Liverpool might be building a 'team' but remember we are ahead of them in the league and as soon as summer comes I think Rodgers will splash the cash he couldn't spend last summer.

 

I'm all for blooding in some youth but to say we need to start again is preposterous given its taken us this long to get where we are with the funds we have. Our starting eleven on its day is a match for anyone and I wouldn't fancy gambling on a 'team' that might get dispatched ala Villa every week.

[Matt]

 

5 Who ARE good enough (IMO)

• Barkley - Has been a little inconsistent but had he been given the game time, I think it'd be ironed out and he'd grow consistency in his game. No reason he couldn't be used as a substitute at the end of games, when Ossie or Pienaar grow tired.
  

Im still not sure. When Ive watched him (mostly for England youth) hes tried to be too clever. It all comes with experience though, which is what youre getting at, but to say hes ready now? Dont agree, at least not on what Ive seen.

• Duffy - Shown at Burnley and Scunthorpe respectively, he's a monster and got a great head on his shoulders. Our defense have been shakey at best, set-piece defending have been crying for a fearless defender to throw everything at the ball.
  

I think were going to be forced into giving him an opportunity. Ive got a very good feeling about him and hope he shines.

• Lundstrum - See above.
  

Glowing reports from lower leagues indeed, but isnt this his 1st loan spell? I know he gets rave reviews in the reserves as well, but its a big step up and he needs to do it for the next season too.

• Vellios - Not good enough to start but has shown in the times that he has been used as a substitute, he can be a threat. He can bully defenders and get them thinking about turning toward goal. I love Vellios. He's sexy as hell and i think more game time would truly benefit his game.
  

This lad is good enough, and Im sure wouldve proved it if he had been given as many chances as Vic has had.

• Oviedo - Ok, not technically a youngster but a decent outlay for seeing out games. Can run...and run. Got technical ability. Just needs to improve on his decision making but the signs are there. Pienaar has been looking very leggy of late, come the end of games and he needs relieving slightly earlier than the 88th minute.
  

After the weekend against Reading, i started to think where he could come in. What I would like to see is him, Pienaar and Mirralas all interchanging behind the striker, though Oviedo would mainly play left or right rather than the central position. His pace seems impressive, but until hes played a few full games, I wouldnt be surprised to see hes just giving his all for the 20mins he gets every now and again.

 

So with those in mind, who would I release? By the way, this is my opinion and not influenced by others.

• Heitinga - Sell, for whatever we can get. Massive earner, needs to get off the books.
  
• Neville - From playing, assistant coaching, fine. No more playing please.
  
• Fellaini - Get the money for other youngsters, good ones!
  

Id still sell Vic given the chance, despite his workrate and form improving, otherwise completely agree. Im starting to think we play better football without Felli (even though I think hes a great player, verging on world class)

 

Who would I drop?

• Howard - Great back up keeper, I shit myself every time a ball goes into the area.
  

I agree, but for who? Who could we buy for a reasonable price to replace him?

• Distin - Just not showing enough for me, reliable yes but seeming less and less like his former self.
  

Disagree here, at least 1 more season in him

• Pienaar - Controversial I know but as a 'Winger' or Wide player, he's just not been the same player as last year. Could it be fatigue? Possibly. I just don't get him atm.
  

I remember there was a debate on here before he went to Spurs. Hes not a winger, and for that reason alone I wouldnt let him go. Id put him in the middle behind the striker, like Ossie he will make things happen and let him interchange with Kev & Bryan. Good feet, good work ethic (not as good as Ossie in that sense for me) but not got the pace.

• Jelavic - Yes, it might be a 'blip' but Mirallas looks far more dangerous as a striker, his finishing it clinical. I want to see Super Kev upfront...get back to Olympiakos goal scoring.
  

Super Kev looks most dangerous cutting in off the wing, which is why id leave him there. Jela? Didnt rate him at Rangers, was pleasently surprised by his form last season and convinced he can get it back - if we play to his strength, ie to his feet and not having him chasing down the flanks.

 

What do we need?

• A wide man. A proper one. Not a striker playing on the wing. Or a CM playing on the wing. A proper winger. Someone with pace and tekkers, would be delightful.
  

Think weve finally got that (see above with Pienaar and Oviedo). Id be going for keeper first and foremost.

• Striker. Still need one, not sure who we could get but someone dangerous, like Wolfswinkel or Lukaku.
  

Agreed, but those 2 and similar are going to be waaaaaaay out of reach financially

Nice write up Ten. Just wanted to concentrate on the players part though. Not trying to put a dampener on your approach either, just a bit tired!

[SimonButtle]

Why is it that everyone in the football world thinks Everton is the model football club, except for Evertonians?!

 

Arsenal have been trying to build a 'team' for 8 years and it hasn't worked, even though they have more money and draw than us to get the best youngsters in the world. Liverpool might be building a 'team' but remember we are ahead of them in the league and as soon as summer comes I think Rodgers will splash the cash he couldn't spend last summer.

 

I'm all for blooding in some youth but to say we need to start again is preposterous given its taken us this long to get where we are with the funds we have. Our starting eleven on its day is a match for anyone and I wouldn't fancy gambling on a 'team' that might get dispatched ala Villa every week.

But thats just it, it's not. Or is it more a case of the managers stale tactics and lack of ideas, because the playing squad individually probably is good enough to compete week in week out when everyone is fit.

 

I do like the idea of starting over with fresh ideas and a clean slate though.

[Guest]

Romantically the thread sounds great but i dont want to see the blues in league one. You only have to look at the clubs that have had a nightmare season and went down and look where they are. As Alan Partridge said "Revolution not evolution" no it was the other way round, "exactly!"

Edited March 4, 2013 by Tricky Trev

[Zoo]

Romantically the thread sounds great but i dont want to see the blues in league one. You only have to look at the clubs that have had a nightmare season and went down and look where they are. As Alan Partridge said "Revolution not evolution" no it was the other way round, "exactly!"

 

Spot on.

 

Whilst it sounds good on paper that we could have a squad just like Dortmund or Feyernoord in reality I don't think its going to happen. The only reason those teams could establish top, young stars was because they were already known world-wide and could afford to pump major bucks into their academy systems, we do not have that money and never will until we win some silver-ware and start making a name for ourselves.

 

Whilst this sounds a really good way to go I just don't think it would ever happen in reality and I fear the risk of relegation is too great if we ever went down that route.

[Bailey]

I dont think Ten was plumping for the 'lets sell all our big names and bring in unknown youngsters' approach! Will we get relegated if we sell Fellaini and Heitinga? Will we feck... Will we get relegated if we use Pienaar, Howard, Distin and Jelavic as squad players instead of automatic starters? Will we feck...

 

The OP isnt about an overnight revolution, or even a one season revolution (like Villa). Its about letting players go who potentially cost more than they bring to the team and giving certain young players a chance to actually break into the first team squad and challenge those that are already established in it.

 

We already have a very good academy and a very good scouting network in place which has been proven to compete with the top names in European football. Unfortunately we dont have the same pulling power as some clubs but thats why we need the real lure of 1st team football to hook them in.

[mcirony]

You also need to consider squad depth, if we get rid of a few players to bleed in youth, who's backing up the youth? Even the fittest and most experienced players suffer from fatigue.

[BedfordBlue]

Anyone would think we are fighting relegation. We are 6th in the league 2 Pt's behind 5th and an outside chance of champions league and have a decent chance off making the FA cup semi-finals.

 

Why the hell do we need to start again.

[Bill]

^

Anyone would think we are fighting relegation. We are 6th in the league 2 Pt's behind 5th and an outside chance of champions league and have a decent chance off making the FA cup semi-finals.

 

Why the hell do we need to start again.

 

This +1

[Quinn31]

^

 

This +1

We're only competing with teams that spend about twice as much money in wages, have a shot at a European place, have a good shot at a FA Cup Semi-final, and are above Liverpool, but hey, a bad run of games obviously means the entire squad needs to go. Our squad has a few members that should go, or become squad players instead of everyweek starting 11 players, but if anything, we need to strengthen the squad depth-wise.

[Lowensda]

Not quite what I was getting at, but please continue.

 

It's a debate, it was an option. At this present time we have an ever aging squad, with ever rising wages and we are forever rising up the table, right? Wrong. We are always going to be in and around the 5th/8th mark, especially with the squad we have. But we're not gaining anything from hovering underneath the perennial glass ceiling.

 

If we want to push on, or if you want EVerton to push on (which might be the more important of the two), we have to try something different.

 

It's not about the quick fix (i'm pretty sure I mentioned that) so it's certainly not a 'knee jerk' reaction to "a bad run of games" as you put it. This is a reaction to something 'better' than where we are now.

 

Everton are falling slowly and surely into more debt, racking up the red, until one day the financial infrastructure of the club buckles. How will we get out of this mess. Wait to find a Genius billion playboy philanthropist (courtesy of Tony Stark) to come in and spunk a load of money on has been's and 'egotistically, tiny willys' with little or no return on his investment, before pissing off to Asia or wherever, to shack up with some Lady Boy called Krystal and settling down on the island of Koh Hae with his pug and rediculous looking beachside mansion.

 

Or....(as we'll probably find out soon enough)

 

We start selling the big earners, those who don't warrant the giant paypackets (i.e. Heiting and Fellaini), pay off some of those debts and start raising the confidence and ability of our youngsters. So instead of sitting on the kids as a 'stop gap'...start a project. Start building a team. Start buying kids or youngsters who "fit the system". Who will eventually gel together and be something better than what we had before. Only then, can we really push on. We've seen in Europe over the last couple of years, footballing teams win games. They beat the 'big clubs'. They invest wisely and start creating winning ways.

 

With the money we save, on not burning, start investing in the club again. Into a stadium project? Into regenerating the local area. I know ArabMegaBucksBollox is loaded and yes, he's pretty much got unlimited funding but he's creating a project at City and there's no reason as to why we can't do it. Look for people who are actually capable of bringing in money through different revenues, not just reliant on future TV money all the time. Bigger and better sponsorship deals! Start investing a little in the worldwide market, start trying to infiltrate some of the nations that have more recently shown an interest in our club (Australia - Tim Cahill, USA - Howard, Donovan, Belgium - Fellaini, Mirallas). We can do it, if the people behind the scenes REALLY wanted it.

 

We will have to sell off our top players soon, it'll happen. It's not a case of 'if', it's a case of 'when'...and if its sooner, rather than later, I fucking hope it's the push the club needs to implement a bigger and better plan for the future.

 

I'm not being over the top and i'm not getting ahead of myself. It's a marathon, not a sprint. If we keep sprinting financially and continue to just 'tread water', there will come a time that we'll tire and drown. It's time to slow down, build up momentum and smash through that finish line which is the league's glass ceiling. It'll take tears and tantrums. It'll be frustrating but excited. It'll make you love and loathe Everton FC all at the same time but hopefully and I'm being hopeful...we'll get our rewards.

[Bailey]

Spot on Ten.

[Zoo]

Today has proved (for me) that what J is saying is the way to go. The only players out there who seem to give a fuck are Baines, Mirallas and Jelavic. I'd be happy to have a massive over-haul in the summer of the shite that we have (which is fucking plenty) and start again with players that want to play for the shirt.

 

I'd die for Everton - it seems like those who wear the shirt don't feel the same way.