Real Madrid

[SimonButtle]

 

We did not defend with a high line. Defending with a high line is when like the opposition's goalkeeper passes it to a centre back just outside the box and then that's where your first line of defenders will press, your last line will be at the half-way line. When Real were attacking, we were sitting a lot deeper. We were just high up the pitch for a couple of their chances because we were attacking and lost the ball. You see how that's totally different, don't you? Then we usually tried to play Ronaldo offside when their first outlet ball came.

 

BTW: Moyes did play with a high line most of the time and we didn't exactly leak goals

We did defend with a high line imo, that's what Martinez's teams do, but im not going to argue with you about it. What i do know is that if we defend the way we have been giving the ball away, then we are going to be on the end of some batterings next season imo. We are NOT a team that can out score other teams. We had a tight solid defence, why is Martinez trying to change it? if it ain't broke don't fix it imo.

[Zoo]

We did defend with a high line imo, that's what Martinez's teams do, but im not going to argue with you about it. What i do know is that if we defend the way we have been giving the ball away, then we are going to be on the end of some batterings next season imo. We are NOT a team that can out score other teams. We had a tight solid defence, why is Martinez trying to change it? if it ain't broke don't fix it imo.

 

Under Moyes we couldn't out-score teams because we had some form of ban on going over the half-way line with more than 3 players. Martinez is playing attractive, positive, attacking football and with that will come a few goals conceded.

 

I'd rather win 7-6 than draw 0-0.

[SimonButtle]

 

Under Moyes we couldn't out-score teams because we had some form of ban on going over the half-way line with more than 3 players. Martinez is playing attractive, positive, attacking football and with that will come a few goals conceded.

 

I'd rather win 7-6 than draw 0-0.

that's ok if you have midfielders and forwards who can regularly score but imo we are not clinical enough across the park to out score teams.

[Cornish Steve]

I'm not sure why everyone assumes there will be more goals against. When RM managed Wigan, they kept blank sheets against many teams,including some of the top teams. Playing a more attacking style does not mean we'll concede more goals. If we only let in 2 against Real Madrid, why think we'll let in 4 or 5 against EPL teams?

[mcirony]

I'm not sure why everyone assumes there will be more goals against. When RM managed Wigan, they kept blank sheets against many teams,including some of the top teams. Playing a more attacking style does not mean we'll concede more goals. If we only let in 2 against Real Madrid, why think we'll let in 4 or 5 against EPL teams?

True but whether down to tactics or players available, they also got seriously trounced 7 or 8 nil a few times!

[SimonButtle]

I'm not sure why everyone assumes there will be more goals against. When RM managed Wigan, they kept blank sheets against many teams,including some of the top teams. Playing a more attacking style does not mean we'll concede more goals. If we only let in 2 against Real Madrid, why think we'll let in 4 or 5 against EPL teams?

Not saying it will be i just think it's a dangerous game to play.

[Bailey]

One thing that was apparent and i'm not sure whether the 'fasting' is affecting him but Jelavic was 10x the player Kone was in the first half. Kone just hasn't shown me anything yet. I want to be proved wrong, just isn't helping.

I feel a bit for him because he wasnt really given the opportunity to do much. He was up against Real's best CB in Ramos and he didnt give him an inch. Kone made some sharp runs, he was looking to link up the play but when he was involved the ball to him was poor or his touch let him down.

 

He has only played 90 mins so far and I thought his first 45 against Blackburn were promising and Im pretty sure he wouldnt be the first player to not shine in 45 mins against RM.

[Steve_E]

We did defend with a high line imo, that's what Martinez's teams do, but im not going to argue with you about it. What i do know is that if we defend the way we have been giving the ball away, then we are going to be on the end of some batterings next season imo. We are NOT a team that can out score other teams. We had a tight solid defence, why is Martinez trying to change it? if it ain't broke don't fix it imo.

 

Some sources (to prove I'm not the only one saying this):

For a side like Wigan who look to win the ball pack in their own half rather than us who win it in the opposition half, this attribute to regain possession and start counter attacks from the back is crucial.

His figures in terms of clearances is way down on Jags/Distin, although this is perhaps more down to Wigan’s style of playing out of danger and the fact that under Moyes we played a very high line meaning opposition counters and clearances from our backline were more likely.

http://theexecutionersbong.wordpress.com/2013/07/10/introducing-evertons-new-signings-antolin-alcaraz-joel-robles/

 

 

A feature of our play has been a territorial game plan manifested by a high defensive line meaning we spend a higher percentage of time ( 32%) in the opposition half than anyone in the league.

http://theexecutionersbong.wordpress.com/2013/05/19/everton-a-z-season-deconstruction-1213/

 

 

 

It is this proposal that leads Brendan Rodgers to the conclusion that the pressing game is the most appropriate solution to recovering possession, rather than Martinez’s more patient and defensive overloading solution.

http://www.eplindex.com/34538/build-possession-philosophy-copying-barcelona-spain.html

 

 

If you want to insist we're defending with a high line then he isn't changing anything. Of course it's not black and white because all teams will sit back sometimes and press high up other times in the same game, but Moyes does so more often than Martinez. I'm starting to feel stupid for repeating this again, so I'm gonna keep it at this post but for the majority of the chances we conceded against Madrid it's not even relevant whether we were defending with a high or deep defensive line as they were almost all counter attacks. Of course we are gonna be high up the pitch when we have the ball in their half, that's inevitable. A football pitch is about 115 yards in length and if you have the ball in the opposition's half, you can't have your centre backs sitting 40 yards behind your midfielders, that does not happen. Under Moyes, we would have been as high up the pitch as well if we wanted to create a chance. We had two centre backs and at the very least Heitinga as well sitting back at the half-way line at all times. That should be enough to contain 1 player. The major problems imo were that when we lost the ball the midfielders and forward didn't transition well enough. Have a look at the game on Av's website.

 

Have a look at the first goal at about 18:10. Where does Khedira pick that ball up when Coleman passes the ball into nowhere, see where Fellaini and Osman are standing when he does. Then see where they are when Khedira is next to Ronaldo at our goal. You can see Osman at least sort of trying, he's just not fast enough. Fellaini is just jogging back. Heitinga is caught slightly out of position because he's moving to the right a bit to provide Coleman with an easy and safe option back, but Coleman fucks up by playing it along the width of the pitch to absolutely nowhere. Otherwise he could have stopped that by just putting pressure on Khedira so that he can't pass it into Ozil. Jagielka and Distin are also not doing the same thing, Distin is tracking back whereas Jagielka decides to push up (which is also why the Madrid player on Jagielka's side has so much space when Ronaldo is in front of goal). Despite the miscommunication between the centre backs, Ronaldo was still offside and that should have been called.

 

The second goal is at about 32:20. Fellaini should press Modric so that he can't play that ball over the top but he's just standing there, perhaps because he's hindered by the ref initially but that's no excuse. It's hard to say exactly what goes wrong in the back line because there's no good high camera angle with a view of it, but we definitely had more than enough people in that back line, we were not storming forward with 11 men. It does look like Baines is chasing back while the rest of the line are trying to push up.

 

Also, people often see possession as über-attacking but then you're not seeing all aspects of it. Like Johan Cruyff once said: "As long as we've got the ball, they can't score". Of course that's going to require players with ability and above all good decision making on the ball. If Coleman simply passes the ball back to Heitinga for example, we retain possession and the first goal doesn't happen.

[Avinalaff]

To me, this is a dangerously high line against Madrid. It is their first goal, and Ronaldo is about to be played through.

 

 

We have 5 defenders on the pitch, yet only 2 are defending, and are ridiculously exposed.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Avinalaff

[Steve_E]

Which is because we had just lost the ball. Heitinga was back behind the ball like a second before that screen shot as well but he got caught out like I said above.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Steve_E

[Romey 1878]

Which is because we had just lost the ball. Heitinga was back behind the ball like a second before that screen shot as well but he got caught out like I said above.

I can feel your frustration growing from here. If give up before you give yourself a heart attack!

[Bailey]

To me, this is a dangerously high line against Madrid. It is their first goal, and Ronaldo is about to be played through.

 

 

We have 5 defenders on the pitch, yet only 2 are defending, and are ridiculously exposed.

 

As Steve_E says thats not a ridiculously high line, you will be hard pressed to see anything different when a team is attacking. The problem as you rightly point out is that we create a 3 vs 3 situation because of our poor decision making.

[Zoo]

I can only echo what Bailey & S_E have said. I've been really happy with pre-season and fail to see any major issues.

[Bailey]

 

Some sources (to prove I'm not the only one saying this):

 

 

 

If you want to insist we're defending with a high line then he isn't changing anything. Of course it's not black and white because all teams will sit back sometimes and press high up other times in the same game, but Moyes does so more often than Martinez. I'm starting to feel stupid for repeating this again, so I'm gonna keep it at this post but for the majority of the chances we conceded against Madrid it's not even relevant whether we were defending with a high or deep defensive line as they were almost all counter attacks. Of course we are gonna be high up the pitch when we have the ball in their half, that's inevitable. A football pitch is about 115 yards in length and if you have the ball in the opposition's half, you can't have your centre backs sitting 40 yards behind your midfielders, that does not happen. Under Moyes, we would have been as high up the pitch as well if we wanted to create a chance. We had two centre backs and at the very least Heitinga as well sitting back at the half-way line at all times. That should be enough to contain 1 player. The major problems imo were that when we lost the ball the midfielders and forward didn't transition well enough. Have a look at the game on Av's website.

 

Have a look at the first goal at about 18:10. Where does Khedira pick that ball up when Coleman passes the ball into nowhere, see where Fellaini and Osman are standing when he does. Then see where they are when Khedira is next to Ronaldo at our goal. You can see Osman at least sort of trying, he's just not fast enough. Fellaini is just jogging back. Heitinga is caught slightly out of position because he's moving to the right a bit to provide Coleman with an easy and safe option back, but Coleman fucks up by playing it along the width of the pitch to absolutely nowhere. Otherwise he could have stopped that by just putting pressure on Khedira so that he can't pass it into Ozil. Jagielka and Distin are also not doing the same thing, Distin is tracking back whereas Jagielka decides to push up (which is also why the Madrid player on Jagielka's side has so much space when Ronaldo is in front of goal). Despite the miscommunication between the centre backs, Ronaldo was still offside and that should have been called.

 

The second goal is at about 32:20. Fellaini should press Modric so that he can't play that ball over the top but he's just standing there, perhaps because he's hindered by the ref initially but that's no excuse. It's hard to say exactly what goes wrong in the back line because there's no good high camera angle with a view of it, but we definitely had more than enough people in that back line, we were not storming forward with 11 men. It does look like Baines is chasing back while the rest of the line are trying to push up.

 

Also, people often see possession as über-attacking but then you're not seeing all aspects of it. Like Johan Cruyff once said: "As long as we've got the ball, they can't score". Of course that's going to require players with ability and above all good decision making on the ball. If Coleman simply passes the ball back to Heitinga for example, we retain possession and the first goal doesn't happen.

 

I have just had a quick look back at the goals again and cant help but think your being quite harsh on Felli! There was no way Felli could have made up the same ground to get near Khedira from his starting position. If Osman had sprinted to Khedira as soon as he picked up the ball he could have tried to put in some type of challenge but he didnt, and once he thought 'oh shit' he quickened up slightly but only broke into a quick jog, whereas Felli didnt change pace at all. Heitinga was caught out and couldnt have reacted in the time but like you say Jags and Distin are on completely different wave lengths (as they are for the chance just after we hit the post and the 2nd goal).

 

For the 2nd goal there is also no way Fellaini would have been able to close down Modric. Too far away to start with and then hampered by the ref. Unfortunately the clip I watched doesnt show quite why the move broke down and we lost possession in the first place but from then on, Modric has an easy through ball, Distin, Jags and Baines aren't working together and we let them through.

 

Whats worse is that them 3 dont have any excuses. They have played together for long enough now and I very much doubt that anything has changed since Moyes left regarding how they defend in those types of situations. I remember them doing the same thing against Utd letting RVP through about 3 times unmarked. The other thing I have noticed with Distin in particular is that he is coming out of the line unnecessarily on a number of occasions which was more prevalent in the Juve game.

[Steve_E]

 

I have just had a quick look back at the goals again and cant help but think your being quite harsh on Felli! There was no way Felli could have made up the same ground to get near Khedira from his starting position. If Osman had sprinted to Khedira as soon as he picked up the ball he could have tried to put in some type of challenge but he didnt, and once he thought 'oh shit' he quickened up slightly but only broke into a quick jog, whereas Felli didnt change pace at all. Heitinga was caught out and couldnt have reacted in the time but like you say Jags and Distin are on completely different wave lengths (as they are for the chance just after we hit the post and the 2nd goal).

 

For the 2nd goal there is also no way Fellaini would have been able to close down Modric. Too far away to start with and then hampered by the ref. Unfortunately the clip I watched doesnt show quite why the move broke down and we lost possession in the first place but from then on, Modric has an easy through ball, Distin, Jags and Baines aren't working together and we let them through.

 

Whats worse is that them 3 dont have any excuses. They have played together for long enough now and I very much doubt that anything has changed since Moyes left regarding how they defend in those types of situations. I remember them doing the same thing against Utd letting RVP through about 3 times unmarked. The other thing I have noticed with Distin in particular is that he is coming out of the line unnecessarily on a number of occasions which was more prevalent in the Juve game.

 

For the first goal, Fellaini couldn't have stopped Khedira setting up the move, but he could have tried to run back. Khedira ends up in our box while Fellaini doesn't end up in the picture.

 

For the second goal, Fellaini should have been much closer to Modric to start with. He should have shifted more towards Modric much earlier.

 

And I agree that it's nothing new.

[Bailey]

 

For the first goal, Fellaini couldn't have stopped Khedira setting up the move, but he could have tried to run back. Khedira ends up in our box while Fellaini doesn't end up in the picture.

 

For the second goal, Fellaini should have been much closer to Modric to start with. He should have shifted more towards Modric much earlier.

 

And I agree that it's nothing new.

 

Yeh I agree that both him and Osman should have made an effort to get closer to him. I am hoping that if it was a competitive match that both of them would have tried a bit harder.

 

I still think the 2nd one is harsh though. I know what your saying and now that I have seen the full replay (thanks Av!) I do agree that he could have at least made Modric aware of his presence, however I think its pushing it to suggest it would have made any difference to Modric being able to play that ball comfortably.

 

At least I am pretty happy now that we know where we need to improve with a few more pre-season games to work on it and hopefully time in the transfer market to bring in another one or two bodies (and maybe let one or two go as well). Our midfield trio and two centre backs need to start working together properly because too often against Madrid they were working against each other. Whether that be creating space for a pass, dropping in to cover, play off side or tracking runners they need to start thinking a little more about what they are doing.

[Cornish Steve]

I'll bet you that RM has shown videos over and over that reveal where the problems lie. It doesn't really matter that we were exposed in preseason: The true test is whether we learn from it and do things differently the next time around.

[MikeO]

I'll bet you that RM has shown videos over and over that reveal where the problems lie. It doesn't really matter that we were exposed in preseason: The true test is whether we learn from it and do things differently the next time around.

 

Yup....also I have a feeling that Grant Holt will cause us slightly less grief than Ronaldo and Ozil.

[efc1111]

 

Yup....also I have a feeling that Grant Holt will cause us slightly less grief than Ronaldo and Ozil.

 

He's playing for Wigan now so you're probably right Ricky van Wolfswinkel on the other hand is supposedly quite rapid.

[Zoo]

We need to watch RVW, he was very impressive last season for Sporting.

[MikeO]

 

He's playing for Wigan now so you're probably right

 

Had no idea.

 

In my defence (after Googling it) it happened on the first day of my holiday and given limited 'net access I was wasn't really searching for Norwich/Wigan stories .

[Zoo]

Well he scored at the weekend so you should have noticed then .

[Cornish Steve]

 

Ricky van Wolfswinkel on the other hand is supposedly quite rapid.

 

I thought he was known for his habitual laziness.

[MikeO]

Well he scored at the weekend so you should have noticed then .

 

Barnsley v Wigan didn't have me on the edge of my seat checking result/scorers I'm afraid .

[mcirony]

I think everyone has to remember that our players aren't match fit yet and I think consciously or subconsciously they have been preserving some energy early in the games. It's all about mental and physical sharpness too. Hopefully come the start of the season everyone will have an extra yard and a bit more awareness.

[MikeO]

Robert Elstone in his latest blog, on the tour....

 

"...besides not getting the ‘bounce of the ball’ at The Dodgers’ Stadium – maybe things are more predictable than I thought (said as diplomatically as I can), it’s been a great success."

 

http://www.evertonfc.com/evertoninteractive/a-land-of-dreams

[Romey 1878]

Robert Elstone in his latest blog, on the tour....

 

"...besides not getting the ‘bounce of the ball’ at The Dodgers’ Stadium – maybe things are more predictable than I thought (said as diplomatically as I can), it’s been a great success."

 

http://www.evertonfc.com/evertoninteractive/a-land-of-dreams

 

 

Saying without actually saying it that maybe things were set up.

[Lowensda]

It was set up. It was in American. It's all a show baby...