Same old Everton

[Guest Nikica]

not to cause offence to anyone but I can often spot the younger fans on here... there are certain traits,

 

"McCarthy isn't all that" (younger fans enjoy seeing the likes of Mirallas, Barkley, Coleman play the game like they are in the school yard) - it takes a few years of watching and playing to realise what a valuable job. Its no offence, its just the way the appreciation for the game becomes more in depth as you get older.

 

McCarthy makes the game easier for his team mates. Simple as that.

Wanted to say that this is very true. When I was 15 and played football I just wanted to dribble past people. As I got older I realised how much more important team play is when compared to being a flashy cunt.

 

At age 14 or so I couldn't understand why Barry Ferguson was so highly rated by Rangers fans. But as I got older I began to see what players like he and McCarthy offer in the middle of the park. It doesn't matter how knowledgeable someone is as a youngster, their appreciation for understated players will generally deepen with age and experience. As you say it isn't intended as an offence.

 

I've skimmed the thread and have to say it's been a good read. People know my views on Martinez but as a non-Evertonian I don't think I should get involved here. I just wanted to second Hafnia's point in the quoted post.

[NyarkosLeftToe]

See the problem I have with the bold is this....

 

How can we expect to have consistent champions league finishes if we don't have a pot to piss in?

 

It's all well and good saying he needs time to build his own squad but unfortunately I don't see him having enough money to build a squad capable of consistent top 4 finishes. I just see that as fact.

 

The ability to finish in those top 4 positions "this" season will give us a much better platform to build on.

 

It's been the same for a long time. We just haven't been quite good enough to break in (apart from a one of in 04/05, Without the financial muscle. I can't see us becoming a "consistant" top 4 team and it's hard to see us breaking the top 4 to be honest. This season is probably the best opportunity we have. However it's looking grimmer than ever in league standings. We've got a lot of catching up to do.

 

I'm looking at reality rather than the "bigger picture"

 

 

I do understand fans frustration at us not going out and buying a 20-30 million pound striker or winger each season like some clubs around us do, but, considering we don't have a pot to piss in we are still there or there abouts, I do think if we had the squad fully fit for the majority of the season so far we would have won a few more of the games which we ended up drawing.

 

Martinez said during his first press conference that he sees us in the Champions League in the near future, I thought he was chatting shit and maybe Bill had spiked his pint of Chang before it! But, I don't think he would have taken the job had the board not had a plan to match his ambitions when he first spoke to them.

 

I think as with any new manager you have to give them patience and time to get the squad they want, I think it will take him a couple of seasons personally. In the mean time if we continue to develop the way we are we might even sneak a trophy or with a bit of luck get into the top 4 sooner than expected.

[Hafnia]

You can throw £100m at the squad and buy 5 players - it doesn't make it the right thing to do, unless something is broken - i.e the side that Moyes inherited then wholesale changes don't often work.

 

Look at Spurs this year, Man City a few years back, Sunderland nearly every window. Side need to move into their next image, not jump.

 

Thats where I have been impressed with Martinez, he has brought different styles of player to what we have been used to - comfortable on the ball.

 

I will say this right now IF MARTINEZ WAS HIRED TO REPLACE SAF - UNITED WOULD BE TOP OF THE LEAGUE NOW.

 

He would have taken McCarthy and partnered him with Carrick, had Rooney behind RVP, utilised Kagawa, and basically had them playing football.

[MC11]

You can throw £100m at the squad and buy 5 players - it doesn't make it the right thing to do, unless something is broken - i.e the side that Moyes inherited then wholesale changes don't often work.

 

Look at Spurs this year, Man City a few years back, [\b]Sunderland nearly every window. Side need to move into their next image, not jump.

 

Thats where I have been impressed with Martinez, he has brought different styles of player to what we have been used to - comfortable on the ball.

 

I will say this right now IF MARTINEZ WAS HIRED TO REPLACE SAF - UNITED WOULD BE TOP OF THE LEAGUE NOW.

 

He would have taken McCarthy and partnered him with Carrick, had Rooney behind RVP, utilised Kagawa, and basically had them playing football.

Sorry but I completely disagree.

 

Look where City are now. Spurs are still in with a chance of CL football. They are rolling sides over under Sherwood. Look at their recent league form to ours. Look what financial injection done to Chelsea.

 

Money matters no matter how you paint it. Another example if money mattering is arsenal. They ain't won a dime since 2006 because they hadn't spent. It's only this season they splashed out on Ozil.

[Hafnia]

Sorry but I completely disagree.

 

Look where City are now. Spurs are still in with a chance of CL football. They are rolling sides over under Sherwood. Look at their recent league form to ours. Look what financial injection done to Chelsea.

 

Money matters no matter how you paint it. Another example if money mattering is arsenal. They ain't won a dime since 2006 because they hadn't spent. It's only this season they splashed out on Ozil.

 

Disagree all you like. Its been said many times, throwing money and buying 5-6 players with egos upsets the apple cart. Teams are built, not thrown together. Look at Liverpool when they bought diouf, salif diou etc - it doesn't work, the alpha male clashes create tension.

[GoodisonRoad]

Sorry but I completely disagree.

 

Look where City are now. Spurs are still in with a chance of CL football. They are rolling sides over under Sherwood. Look at their recent league form to ours. Look what financial injection done to Chelsea.

 

Money matters no matter how you paint it. Another example if money mattering is arsenal. They ain't won a dime since 2006 because they hadn't spent. It's only this season they splashed out on Ozil.

 

They were fortuntate to beat us with 1 shot on target and they were beaten last night in the Europa league by Dinipro. I dont think theyve "rolled" anyone over.

 

Money matters when you have situations like City and Chelsea, because they can afford to get it wrong. Just look at the money they've spunked up the wall on utter shite; Torres (Chelsea), Jo (City), Maicon (Free i know but he would have been on a decent wage), Kalou the list can go on. But the frustration is simply they can afford to spunk £20-£25 mill on a player and for him to be a complete waste of space because they can afford to just go and do it again and eventually... it will click.

 

Every player we sign, we have to look at a possible return on them. The frustration for me is that our progress is constantly knocked back as clubs with money can go out and add to what quality they already have in their team. For us, it feels a little like we have to take a step back in order to take 2 steps forward (sell Fellaini, bring in McCarthy and Barry). I think we will get there eventually, but it will take time.

Edited February 21, 2014 by GoodisonRoad

[MC11]

Disagree all you like. Its been said many times, throwing money and buying 5-6 players with egos upsets the apple cart. Teams are built, not thrown together. Look at Liverpool when they bought diouf, salif diou etc - it doesn't work, the alpha male clashes create tension.

Of course it works. Look at Chelsea and City. Liverpool have picked up cups along the way. Been in numerous finals.

 

Chelsea and City both bought 5-6 players in title winning seasons.

Edited February 21, 2014 by MiguelCotto

[Ant1979]

Of course it works. Look at Chelsea and City. Liverpool have picked up cups along the way. Been in numerous finals.

Chelsea and City both bought 5-6 players in title winning seasons.

Can I ask you a serious question, not meant as an insult or an attack? If what you're saying is correct, then surely we are doing fantastic against the financial muscle of at least 6 teams who spend massively more than us. So why the negativity? Surely you should be praising Everton at every opportunity for keeping close to the big spenders, if you believe that big spending is the only route to success?

[Hafnia]

Of course it works. Look at Chelsea and City. Liverpool have picked up cups along the way. Been in numerous finals.

 

Chelsea and City both bought 5-6 players in title winning seasons.

 

Of course it doesn't work - look at the player attrition levels (turnover) at those clubs... its a patch up methodology that does not provide sustained results.

 

Player acquisition needs to be specific and deliberate, this is not Football manager 2014... Look at Bayern and Barca versus Real, Chelsea and City.

 

New players need to integrate into the existing culture, not come in numbers and form a new one.

[MC11]

Barcelona have arguably the best youth system in the world. That's their core. They have also spent numerous 7 figure fees on players.

 

Bayern Munich spent £50m this season on two players alone. They have also spent various 7 figure fees on players over recent seasons. Their youth system has brought through the likes of Kroos and Sweinsteiger.

 

They are both also the biggest clubs in their league and have been for a long long time.

 

Chelsea and City on the other hand have only just started winning things and competing regularly through financial muscle. If you're going to compare the four clubs then it's money that's brought City and Chelsea in the same bracket as those two clubs. Nothing else.

 

The fact that it's brought them both league titles suggests that money will give you a better finish than 4th place. Which is all a we're "currently" hoping for from Everton. Money will give us a much better platform to compete year in year out.

 

The way things are going we will always be hovering below unless we get 3-4 top quality youth players through or we spent big money on top players.

 

This is why I don't see the bigger picture of building a better squad. To do so you need big money.

Edited February 21, 2014 by MiguelCotto

[bluenosetoffee]

The expectations from me have always been the same "Champions League qualification".

 

The squad was improved, dead wood shipped out and decent younger talent brought in. So I suppose I expected more once I'd seem what was on the books. The first 3 games where shite. I remember West Brom at home and thinking this is going to be a long season.

 

At present Martinez hasn't eclipsed Moyes for me. It's all very similar, except the football seems to be a lot better. That's not to say we didn't play good stuff under Moyes.

 

We are a lot better than we were than when Moyes was in charge. Moyes did a lot for Everton and transformed our team to what it is today but with Moyes in charge we were never consistent enough for my liking....

When Moyes was in charge there were games where we played absolutely brilliant, then there were a lot also where we played absolute garbage. Hoofing the ball up field and didn't look like scoring....

 

With Martinez it seems as though even if we do lose a game, draw or win we are playing the same football week in week out. Possession, passing and pressing football. Now when I get frustrated it isn't because we are playing rubbish and hoofing the ball it is the fact we can't get the ball in the back of the net when having possession....

[MC11]

Can I ask you a serious question, not meant as an insult or an attack? If what you're saying is correct, then surely we are doing fantastic against the financial muscle of at least 6 teams who spend massively more than us. So why the negativity? Surely you should be praising Everton at every opportunity for keeping close to the big spenders, if you believe that big spending is the only route to success?

It's a decent achievement. But it's not success though is it. I want us to win trophy a. Be competing at the very very top of the league. Finishing 5th, 6th, 7th just isn't success.

[MC11]

We are a lot better than we were than when Moyes was in charge. Moyes did a lot for Everton and transformed our team to what it is today but with Moyes in charge we were never consistent enough for my liking....

 

When Moyes was in charge there were games where we played absolutely brilliant, then there were a lot also where we played absolute garbage. Hoofing the ball up field and didn't look like scoring....

 

With Martinez it seems as though even if we do lose a game, draw or win we are playing the same football week in week out. Possession, passing and pressing football. Now when I get frustrated it isn't because we are playing rubbish and hoofing the ball it is the fact we can't get the ball in the back of the net when having possession....

We played some great stuff under Moyes and I've witnessed some crap this season too. Let's be honest It hasn't all been wonderful but you can't expect it week in week out.

[Ant1979]

It's a decent achievement. But it's not success though is it. I want us to win trophy a. Be competing at the very very top of the league. Finishing 5th, 6th, 7th just isn't success.

I think everyone on this forum wants success and trophies. But how do you propose the club goes about things any different to what they are already doing? That's what I don't understand

[MC11]

I think everyone on this forum wants success and trophies. But how do you propose the club goes about things any different to what they are already doing? That's what I don't understand

"Same old Everton" pretty much sums it up. We will always be falling short without financial investment.

[Hafnia]

Barcelona have arguably the best youth system in the world. That's their core. They have also spent numerous 7 figure fees on players.

 

Bayern Munich spent £50m this season on two players alone. They have also spent various 7 figure fees on players over recent seasons. Their youth system has brought through the likes of Kroos and Sweinsteiger.

 

They are both also the biggest clubs in their league and have been for a long long time.

 

Chelsea and City on the other hand have only just started winning things and competing regularly through financial muscle. If you're going to compare the four clubs then it's money that's brought City and Chelsea in the same bracket as those two clubs. Nothing else.

 

The fact that it's brought them both league titles suggests that money will give you a better finish than 4th place. Which is all a we're "currently" hoping for from Everton. Money will give us a much better platform to compete year in year out.

 

The way things are going we will always be hovering below unless we get 3-4 top quality youth players through or we spent big money on top players.

 

This is why I don't see the bigger picture of building a better squad. To do so you need big money.

 

You aren't reading my posts clearly - its not the "money" aspect I am talking about, spend £100m on one player - thats absolutely fine. To go and spend £100m on 6 players and expect results is just madness.

 

Teams are made over time not just transfer windows. Additions must be integrated. Its not always about collecting the best player in every position.

 

You never seen the Everton team of 84-85... individually player by player other clubs would have had more valuable teams. We had aging players in Gray and Reid, great youth graduates like Steven, Stevens, Ratcliffe, some bargains like Bracewell, Sheedy - mixed in they were formidable and would be a match for any team of any british era.

 

To make my example count...we signed Lineker, a quality striker, worth a fair few bob, top goalscorer but he changed the dynamic of the team - we weren't as good or harmonious.

[Ant1979]

"Same old Everton" pretty much sums it up. We will always be falling short without financial investment.

Can't force someone to invest though? I don't get being negative regarding something that's outside of the chairman's and the manager's control? They can only work within the financial constraints of the club. Roberto is convinced we can make top 4 without a sugar daddy, and I'm certain it will be entertaining to watch him try.

[MC11]

You aren't reading my posts clearly - its not the "money" aspect I am talking about, spend £100m on one player - thats absolutely fine. To go and spend £100m on 6 players and expect results is just madness.

 

Teams are made over time not just transfer windows. Additions must be integrated. Its not always about collecting the best player in every position.

 

You never seen the Everton team of 84-85... individually player by player other clubs would have had more valuable teams. We had aging players in Gray and Reid, great youth graduates like Steven, Stevens, Ratcliffe, some bargains like Bracewell, Sheedy - mixed in they were formidable and would be a match for any team of any british era.

 

To make my example count...we signed Lineker, a quality striker, worth a fair few bob, top goalscorer but he changed the dynamic of the team - we weren't as good or harmonious.

It's not though is it....

 

Chelsea in 04/05 bought 8 players in and got rid 14. Won the league.

 

City in 11/12 bought 6 players in and got rid of 8. Won the league.

 

Massive changes and a league title in the same season.

Edited February 21, 2014 by MiguelCotto

[MC11]

Can't force someone to invest though? I don't get being negative regarding something that's outside of the chairman's and the manager's control? They can only work within the financial constraints of the club. Roberto is convinced we can make top 4 without a sugar daddy, and I'm certain it will be entertaining to watch him try.

But that's the whole point isn't it. Until someone with money buys us out I just can't see us doing any better than we are.

 

There is now 7 teams battling it out for 4 places. 6 of them are financially stronger than us.

[Ant1979]

But that's the whole point isn't it. Until someone with money buys us out I just can't see us doing any better than we are.

There is now 7 teams battling it out for 4 places. 6 of them are financially stronger than us.

But then like I said what do you expect us to do about it? All we can do is live within our means, grow the commercial side of the business, develop through youth, hopefully gain a top 4 place and then build on that. I see where your frustration lies, but as these are all things outside of our control all we can do is try to support the team in a positive manner? I just don't see the point in being negative when those are facts that we just can't change.

[JoeQuince]

Cotto, If you want Everton Football Club to have some investment, please go out and find it. It sounds as if you'd rather support Chelsea or City. You clearly don't believe in our players, manager, chairman or board. You are in a fantasy world, waiting for someone to buy us out. What's the point in supporting Everton if you AREN'T SUPPORTING EVERTON? I'm sure the team would love to hear your halftime speech: "Alright, lads. You're giving 'em your best. That's excellent. But, sadly, none of you are good enough. I don't believe you will win this one. Your names and price tags just aren't big enough. Bill hasn't gotten us any investment yet, so we still don't have Messi. It's not really worth trying today or next week. It just won't happen for us until we get some cash in the coffers."

[MC11]

Cotto, If you want Everton Football Club to have some investment, please go out and find it. It sounds as if you'd rather support Chelsea or City. You clearly don't believe in our players, manager, chairman or board. You are in a fantasy world, waiting for someone to buy us out. What's the point in supporting Everton if you AREN'T SUPPORTING EVERTON? I'm sure the team would love to hear your halftime speech: "Alright, lads. You're giving 'em your best. That's excellent. But, sadly, none of you are good enough. I don't believe you will win this one. Your names and price tags just aren't big enough. Bill hasn't gotten us any investment yet, so we still don't have Messi. It's not really worth trying today or next week. It just won't happen for us until we get some cash in the coffers."

Ii go the game every week . I've had a season ticket for 12 years. How is that not supporting Everton? I believe in the manager, I believe in 11 or so players. Our first 11 is good enough to get in the top 4 continuously the squad isn't though.

 

I don't believe in the board. I don't believe they can take us to the next level. There's nothing wrong with a supporter voicing reality and wanting more.

 

We don't need millions upon millions we need the ability to add two or three quality players to the squad each season. We haven't got the money to do it. If you can't see it you are blind.

 

Do you truly believe Martinez will continuously get us in the champions league under this board? If you do your living in a fantasy world. If you don't then you must be happy to float along with 5th and 6th place finishes.

 

I also find it highly offensive you questioning my support of my "local" team. It seems the Americans on here like to question peoples support. It's not the first time it's happened.

 

I'll tell you now. I was born an Evertonian. My whole family are Evertonians, we go to as many games as our lives let us. We continuously put money into the club via season tickets, Everton attire purchases and match day programmes, drinks, food etc etc.

 

If you're based in America I doubt you do as much as me. I also have an opinion that it probably doesn't matter as much to you as it does to me. Just like me supporting the lakers but not being emotionally involved with them. But please don't question my support of the club, it's offensive

Edited February 21, 2014 by MiguelCotto

[MC11]

But then like I said what do you expect us to do about it? All we can do is live within our means, grow the commercial side of the business, develop through youth, hopefully gain a top 4 place and then build on that. I see where your frustration lies, but as these are all things outside of our control all we can do is try to support the team in a positive manner? I just don't see the point in being negative when those are facts that we just can't change.

How long can we roll along without stepping back though. How long can managers like Moyes and Martinez come in and keep us knocking on the champions league door. Where is the next level coming from. There is no money.

[Hafnia]

It's not though is it....

 

Chelsea in 04/05 bought 8 players in and got rid 14. Won the league.

 

City in 11/12 bought 6 players in and got rid of 8. Won the league.

 

Massive changes and a league title in the same season.

 

So thats 2 teams 3 titles won in total - United won 5 in the same era... were they making clear outs? No. SAF assembled "a team" - made deliberate adjustments not wholesale changes. Didn't just keep changing personnel having trouble makers infiltrate the team.

 

Look at Tevez - in the united team he conformed to the culture, in the City team he tried to influence the culture.

 

Continued player recycling does not work in delivering sustained results.

[MC11]

Chelsea have won 3 titles alone. 4 FA Cups, 2 League Cups, 1 Chàmpions League and 1 Europa League. Since being funded. Numerous finals, second place finishes. Consistent Champions League qualification.

 

City will no doubt follow suit.

 

The point is we don't even need half the investment.

[Ant1979]

How long can we roll along without stepping back though. How long can managers like Moyes and Martinez come in and keep us knocking on the champions league door. Where is the next level coming from. There is no money.

But as I said, not having the money to challenge city and Chelsea isn't something we can change. So I prefer to be positive and give Roberto time to try and back up his ambitions for the club

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

You can throw £100m at the squad and buy 5 players - it doesn't make it the right thing to do, unless something is broken - i.e the side that Moyes inherited then wholesale changes don't often work.

 

Look at Spurs this year, Man City a few years back, Sunderland nearly every window. Side need to move into their next image, not jump.

 

Thats where I have been impressed with Martinez, he has brought different styles of player to what we have been used to - comfortable on the ball.

 

I will say this right now IF MARTINEZ WAS HIRED TO REPLACE SAF - UNITED WOULD BE TOP OF THE LEAGUE NOW.

 

He would have taken McCarthy and partnered him with Carrick, had Rooney behind RVP, utilised Kagawa, and basically had them playing football.

 

 

So the likes of Arteta, Piennar, Baines , Coleman. Manny Fernanez, and Gibson arent comfortable on the ball?

[JoeQuince]

But as I said, not having the money to challenge city and Chelsea isn't something we can change. So I prefer to be positive and give Roberto time to try and back up his ambitions for the club

Exactly. Just because money is a clearly viable solution doesn't mean it is the ONLY solution. We would all welcome the ability to spend more. But, finding a solution by using the cards we are dealt and doing things our own way is also something to look to. How much more proud would we be to achieve consistent champions league football through our own means? I for one am happy our club isn't run by some billionaire, wherever he or she may come from, but by somebody who cares deeply about the club. I'm happy that the club has retained it's integrity (there've been a few confounding scenarios for sure) in a climate of idiotic spending and rash decisions. We are seeing improvement already in this season. So, be positive and give the manager and club some time to let the current project come to fruition.

[Hafnia]

 

 

So the likes of Arteta, Piennar, Baines , Coleman. Manny Fernanez, and Gibson arent comfortable on the ball?

I'd go further I believe there was carsley, gravesen, valente, etc etc who were comfortable on the ball. Moyes signed players who were quite capable of playing the game to a more progressive style. Did we play progressive football though??? My prev post should have said play not player. Edited February 21, 2014 by Hafnia

[MC11]

Carsley and Gravesen (until he was loaned back) wernt Moyes signings.

 

Last season we played some really good stuff. Villa away.

Edited February 21, 2014 by MiguelCotto