Same old Everton

[Hafnia]

selective (repetitive) evidence again Haf?

 

Im not saying he was perfect, but the evidence is there to show he did things for the good of the club and that shouldnt be forgotten.

 

Its relevant though Matt, these are things he said to the media. You just don't do that. Gerald Ratner wiped millions off the value of his Jewelry buisness with such stupidity.

 

Ever heard a boxer go into the ring saying "the other fella has got all the tools to knock me out, just going the distance will be a great achievement".

[Matt]

 

Its relevant though Matt, these are things he said to the media. You just don't do that. Gerald Ratner wiped millions off the value of his Jewelry buisness with such stupidity.

 

Ever heard a boxer go into the ring saying "the other fella has got all the tools to knock me out, just going the distance will be a great achievement".

Again, Im not saying he was perfect. But I am trying to show that he wasnt as bad as people made out, or at least did more than he gets / got credit for. The only reason I keep having to do this is because youre blinded by your distain and cannot produce a balanced argument!

[GoodisonRoad]

 

Jealousy is a terrible thing .

 

You got me

 

Cant beat a bit of Guy love.

[Hafnia]

Again, Im not saying he was perfect. But I am trying to show that he wasnt as bad as people made out, or at least did more than he gets / got credit for. The only reason I keep having to do this is because youre blinded by your distain and cannot produce a balanced argument!

 

Do I seriously need to repaste the balanced argument I gave about my feelings towards Moyes??? Honestly Matt - stop using my conclusion instead of the argument, time and time again I have to repost the whole critique pros and cons to demonstrate that I do take all into account.

[Matt]

 

Do I seriously need to repaste the balanced argument I gave about my feelings towards Moyes??? Honestly Matt - stop using my conclusion instead of the argument, time and time again I have to repost the whole critique pros and cons to demonstrate that I do take all into account.

Fair enough, my apologies. I just get frustrated listening to the same broken record sound bites whilst ignoring new evidence, that the 1 post in a 1000 where you do show all sides of an argument often gets forgotten

[Hafnia]

Fair enough, my apologies. I just get frustrated listening to the same broken record sound bites whilst ignoring new evidence, that the 1 post in a 1000 where you do show all sides of an argument often gets forgotten

 

Fair enough, I understand that. But in all seriousness I do create an opinion on tangible facts and Moyes did have pros in his favour.

 

The frustration for me is his dilution of expectations - it has had a massive impact on our club. That lot over the park have never accepted that despite not winning the title in years, thats why they expect top transfers, investment etc etc.

[johnh]

Living down in the south I talk a lot of football with the locals. Most support various Premiership London teams. Almost without exception they have a deep respect for Everton and as long as Everton are not playing 'their' club they want Everton to win. Invariably, they hate Liverpool and Man U. The view is that Moyes did a fantastic job with limited resources and that Martinez is doing a lot better than expected, particularly as he has changed the style of play somewhat. The common theme is that 'Everton have been punching above their weight' for several seasons.

We do need a striker but paying big bucks is not necessarily the answer. eg Carroll and Torres. I don't think the big lad (can't remember his name) who got injured in the warm-up, is the answer. Can't head the ball and gets knocked off the ball to easily.

The jury is still out on Lukaku, if he can find the form he showed when he first came then he may be worth a punt, but on current form I wouldn't pay £20m for him.

[MC11]

Living down in the south I talk a lot of football with the locals. Most support various Premiership London teams. Almost without exception they have a deep respect for Everton and as long as Everton are not playing 'their' club they want Everton to win. Invariably, they hate Liverpool and Man U. The view is that Moyes did a fantastic job with limited resources and that Martinez is doing a lot better than expected, particularly as he has changed the style of play somewhat. The common theme is that 'Everton have been punching above their weight' for several seasons.

We do need a striker but paying big bucks is not necessarily the answer. eg Carroll and Torres. I don't think the big lad (can't remember his name) who got injured in the warm-up, is the answer. Can't head the ball and gets knocked off the ball to easily.

The jury is still out on Lukaku, if he can find the form he showed when he first came then he may be worth a punt, but on current form I wouldn't pay £20m for him.

We need to forget about these big lumps upfront.

 

We need a nippy, clinical one on one striker who can make his own goals with runs in behind or turning defenders.

 

Lukaku is a static target who forever has his back to goal. He's going to be a fantastic CF one day but I don't think he's what we need. We need someone with good technique and skill.

 

I know I am asking a lot and they dont come cheap but that really is the description of what this side needs. Of the Di Natalie mould but younger of course.

 

There is always the option to have a lump on the bench.

Edited February 24, 2014 by MiguelCotto

[markjazzbassist]

We need to forget about these big lumps upfront.

 

We need a nippy, clinical one on one striker who can make his own goals with runs in behind or turning defenders.

 

 

agreed (i just agreed with cotto, is the world ending??). but seriously i don't think the big guys work well in the RM system. I fast clinical striker who links up well would be best in my opinion.

[Bailey]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/everton-fc-analysis-blues-try-6738716

 

Seems that this article fits nicely in here

 

Really good article. Nicely written too.

 

hes a long term fan.

 

I thought if we finished top ten i would be happy. With a new manager and the heart of our midfield changed, i knew there would be a transition period... i actually hoped we would start again and build from scratch, looking more down the line than this season.

 

Now after such a great start i am feeling a bit deflated. But thats all i am. I still prefer watching us play these tight triangles. I do wish we would mix it a bit sometimes though and have more crosses coming into the box, but we need a striker or a cahil for that. I dont understand why we dont put more crosses in when Naisy is playing as that lad has heart if nothing else.

 

I agree with this thread title, we are heading back to the "same old Everton" of the 80's. we need to keep building and we might actually end up there.

 

Trevor Steven was one of my favourite players along with Sheedy. Watching Sheedy go into tackles with McMahon was the highlight of every derby. We have Reidy replaced with McCarthy and maybe Barkley could in a way replace the magical left of sheedy by bringing cratf to our centre. I am still waiting to see if McGeady can get up to pace and start being more direct as a winger though.

 

Look, if we finish top six and manage a wembley appearance then would you have taken that at the start of the season? i would have and still think we can do it. Spurs are starting to slip and i am still waiting for the reds to have a bad run.

 

I thought we might too, but like Martinez and the players have said he is trying to get the team to adapt slowly rather than throw everything at them at once. Its in those situations where teams drop like a stone. I think he has handled the transition brilliantly all told. It sure as hell hasnt been perfect and in some games we have reverted to type a little but our away performances at the Emirates, Old Trafford and Stamford Bridge so far have been about as good as I can remember for a very long time. That team against Chelsea only had one of our star attacking players in the first 11 and bar the first 5ish mins we bossed them for the rest of that half. We completely nullified their threat and we tore a couple of chunks out of one of the best defensive teams in the league with some really top class moves. If Osman had scored the 20 yarder he ran on to it would have eclipsed the Larissa strike by far because the amount of link up play and movement was really impressive against a compact defensive formation.

 

If we had thrown in the towel, set up to defend and play for a point then I would also be on here with the 'same old Everton' crap but the players and manager arent accepting failure. We went to Stamford Bridge, to White Hart Lane and even to Anfield to win. Yes we havent picked up a point in those 3 games but we at least tried to bring all 3 home with us, like we did at The Emirates and Old Trafford. We are a work in progress and whilst this summer will be another difficult market (which I hadnt thought about until reading this thread) its not like its something we could have avoided.

[Newty82]

That Metro link...thats a free rag aint it? Load of shite that article.

 

You know what is really getting to me, really getting right up my anfield, is how much debate is going on around how Martinez hasn't actually improved our situation. Why? Because right now we sit in 7th. And thats it. We are in 7th now, therefore Martinez hasnt improved us at all. Bollocks.

 

Forget the previous era, its gone. How much longer are we going to make stupid petty tit for tat comparisons? Forget it, its gone. Done. Finished.

 

Now we have a fresh young inspirational manager. 9 months into his new job. Hardly put a foot wrong. But a drop in form, a drop in league places, just a slight one, and now its no different to before.

 

How unfair is it that one mans job after 9 months is being compared to another mans job of 10/11 years? Regardless of who they are, thats shit.

 

At the end of this season we could be in 4th, with the FA Cup in our hands. Why is that potential outcome so bad?

 

It seems that in some quarters Martinez saying boldly that he will get CL football, rather than saying it is not possible, is being turned against him.

 

Positivity rules the day for me. Fuck all wrong with setting your sights high. Its called ambition.

 

One last thing. Enjoy Martinez while we have him. I guarantee that he will be with a major European club in the future.

[pete0]

It seems that in some quarters Martinez saying boldly that he will get CL football, rather than saying it is not possible, is being turned against him.

 

Positivity rules the day for me. Fuck all wrong with setting your sights high. Its called ambition.

 

One last thing. Enjoy Martinez while we have him. I guarantee that he will be with a major European club in the future.

Would that not be with us!

[Newty82]

Would that not be with us!

I was thinking that as I wrote it. Haha!!!

 

It could be taken the wrong way. But I mean...well...finances, stadium, ownership etc. Who knows? But you know for sure that teams like Barca and Real Madrid, as an example, aint going downwards anytime soon!!!

[Hafnia]

That Metro link...thats a free rag aint it? Load of shite that article.

 

You know what is really getting to me, really getting right up my anfield, is how much debate is going on around how Martinez hasn't actually improved our situation. Why? Because right now we sit in 7th. And thats it. We are in 7th now, therefore Martinez hasnt improved us at all. Bollocks.

 

Forget the previous era, its gone. How much longer are we going to make stupid petty tit for tat comparisons? Forget it, its gone. Done. Finished.

 

Now we have a fresh young inspirational manager. 9 months into his new job. Hardly put a foot wrong. But a drop in form, a drop in league places, just a slight one, and now its no different to before.

 

How unfair is it that one mans job after 9 months is being compared to another mans job of 10/11 years? Regardless of who they are, thats shit.

 

At the end of this season we could be in 4th, with the FA Cup in our hands. Why is that potential outcome so bad?

 

It seems that in some quarters Martinez saying boldly that he will get CL football, rather than saying it is not possible, is being turned against him.

 

Positivity rules the day for me. Fuck all wrong with setting your sights high. Its called ambition.

 

One last thing. Enjoy Martinez while we have him. I guarantee that he will be with a major European club in the future.

 

 

I think part of the issue is that a few people have been proved wrong by Martinez and proved wrong that we couldn't prosper without Moyes.

 

Its a bit sad, so many thought that Moyes was the be all and end all for us and stability. Some are dealing with this by trying to some way justify their stance by saying "yeah but..."

[MC11]

That Metro link...thats a free rag aint it? Load of shite that article.

You know what is really getting to me, really getting right up my anfield, is how much debate is going on around how Martinez hasn't actually improved our situation. Why? Because right now we sit in 7th. And thats it. We are in 7th now, therefore Martinez hasnt improved us at all. Bollocks.

Forget the previous era, its gone. How much longer are we going to make stupid petty tit for tat comparisons? Forget it, its gone. Done. Finished.

Now we have a fresh young inspirational manager. 9 months into his new job. Hardly put a foot wrong. But a drop in form, a drop in league places, just a slight one, and now its no different to before.

How unfair is it that one mans job after 9 months is being compared to another mans job of 10/11 years? Regardless of who they are, thats shit.

At the end of this season we could be in 4th, with the FA Cup in our hands. Why is that potential outcome so bad?

It seems that in some quarters Martinez saying boldly that he will get CL football, rather than saying it is not possible, is being turned against him.

Positivity rules the day for me. Fuck all wrong with setting your sights high. Its called ambition.

One last thing. Enjoy Martinez while we have him. I guarantee that he will be with a major European club in the future.

He has improved the brand of football in the sense that we now move the ball across the back four rather than 50% of the time going direct.

 

However it's just plain fact that he hasn't taken us to the next level just yet. It is the same scenario as last season. We have fallen away from the top 4. We will have to wait till the end of the season to make a proper judgement on things.

[Shukes]

Question.

If out team had stayed the same as last year and we had kept Moyes..... Where so you think we would have finished?

 

Do you think.K we would have improved or struggled to keep with the teams above and around us?

[Newty82]

He has improved the brand of football in the sense that we now move the ball across the back four rather than 50% of the time going direct.

 

However it's just plain fact that he hasn't taken us to the next level just yet. It is the same scenario as last season. We have fallen away from the top 4. We will have to wait till the end of the season to make a proper judgement on things.

And there it is people. Right there. The contradiction.

 

You start the whole bloody thread, slating this and that. Right?

 

Now read your last sentence above! 'We'll have to wait until the end of the season to make a proper judgement'. Ex fuckin actly!!!

 

Jeeeeeeeeez.

[MC11]

Here here behave.

 

Of course the proper judgement comes at the end of the season. But right now we are "Same old Everton" we've dropped off the pace - just like last season. Until that changes we are on a level playing field in terms of position and the cup run.

 

If you want to really get into it, tell me how he's done a better job than Moyes so far. Forget the football, let's talk about the business end of things. League position and cup runs.....

Edited February 25, 2014 by MiguelCotto

[NYBlue]

Question.

If out team had stayed the same as last year and we had kept Moyes..... Where so you think we would have finished?

 

Do you think.K we would have improved or struggled to keep with the teams above and around us?

 

I think we'd probably be 6th or 7th at the end of the season, played really well at times and also played bad at times. We'd have lost at the grounds at all of the "big 4" having played for a point in each encounter. Got knocked out of the cup away to a league one outfit. Barkley would still be knocking on the door and we still wouldn't have a good striker and be listening to the same crap from Moyes that we heard non-stop towards the end.

 

Compare to now after Martinez has been in the job for only 9 months with an improvement in our overall style of play and I think we're in a good place. of course if certain things had gone for us then we'd be in a better place but I honestly was slightly worried that we would be towards the bottom of the table.

 

Plus, there is the positivity in the interviews and press conferences. Listening to Moyes press conferences at United makes me appreciate Martinez even more.

Edited February 25, 2014 by NYBlue

[Hafnia]

Here here behave.

 

Of course the proper judgement comes at the end of the season. But right now we are "Same old Everton" we've dropped off the pace - just like last season. Until that changes we are on a level playing field in terms of position and the cup run.

 

If you want to really get into it, tell me how he's done a better job than Moyes so far. Forget the football, let's talk about the business end of things. League position and cup runs.....

 

He has got the fans believing in Everton as being a club that plays beautiful football once more. School of science and all that???

 

I find this whole "he is in the same league position argument so no we haven't improved" - thats pathetic and pedantic.

 

A team could finish 5th, improve 30% the next season and still not break into top 4... thats what you fail to appreciate. There is a clear difference in top 4 this year.

 

If the Everton side of this year under Martinez had to play the Everton side of last year under Moyes this years team would win convincingly IMO.

[MC11]

He has got the fans believing in Everton as being a club that plays beautiful football once more. School of science and all that??? I find this whole "he is in the same league position argument so no we haven't improved" - thats pathetic and pedantic. A team could finish 5th, improve 30% the next season and still not break into top 4... thats what you fail to appreciate. There is a clear difference in top 4 this year. If the Everton side of this year under Martinez had to play the Everton side of last year under Moyes this years team would win convincingly IMO.

 

You're shying away from the business end again aren't you. Points cup runs, where has he trumped last season (so far)? He's got every chance to but it's going to be tough.

 

Capital One Cup:

 

Both 3rd round knockouts.

 

Fa Cup:

 

At the quarter final stage where we went out last season. Against a top side away from home, where we played the best we have all season and came out with a draw. That's a big ask IMO.

 

League Position:

 

Absolute similarities to how it went last season.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like his positivity it's refreshing but Moyes was a realist. It's alright talking the talk but doing it is a whole different matter. Of late we haven't took anywhere near enough points.

Edited February 25, 2014 by MiguelCotto

[Hafnia]

You're shying away from the business end again aren't you. Points cup runs, where has he trumped last season (so far)? He's got every chance to but it's going to be tough.

 

Capital One Cup:

 

Both 3rd round knockouts.

 

Fa Cup:

 

At the quarter final stage where we went out last season. Against a top side away from home, where we played the best we have all season and came out with a draw. That's a big ask IMO.

 

League Position:

 

Absolute similarities to how it went last season.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like his positivity it's refreshing but Moyes was a realist. It's alright talking the talk but doing it is a whole different matter. Of late we haven't took anywhere near enough points.

 

Realist?? Penknives to gun fights, trying to hold on to 1-0 leads, surrendering to a shocking Liverpool team at wembley. Telling people that top10 is a great achievement for a club like Everton??? Here's the reality - Moyes was a negatively, tactically limited dour manager who's self serving nature earned him a fortune from this club.

 

I think you are a WUM.

 

Fans like you don't deserve to have a manager like Martinez, probably best off supporting a Sam Allardyce team.

[Shukes]

You're shying away from the business end again aren't you. Points cup runs, where has he trumped last season (so far)? He's got every chance to but it's going to be tough.

 

Capital One Cup:

 

Both 3rd round knockouts.

 

Fa Cup:

 

At the quarter final stage where we went out last season. Against a top side away from home, where we played the best we have all season and came out with a draw. That's a big ask IMO.

 

League Position:

 

Absolute similarities to how it went last season.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like his positivity it's refreshing but Moyes was a realist. It's alright talking the talk but doing it is a whole different matter. Of late we haven't took anywhere near enough points.

your not gonna get fans on this site with that M. they care more about the football side than the business side. Thats why this is the only site i actually stay at.

 

I see you original point in that we have been through the same scenario many times, going on a run, building expectations and then falling short. But at the same time i think you have to have an appreciation for the football we are playing and the roots that are being built. Roots can grow! thats what we have now.. the possibility of growing where under Moyes we seemed to be stagnating. And trust me you can look back at my posts.... i was a Moyes fan.

 

I really feel that with the same team and manager we would have struggled this season. You have to imporve every year just to maintain. If you stay the same you fall behind, and i for one was worried that we would struggle this season. What i have witnessed is fresh optimism. A change in the way we play and are percieved by others.

 

I think this is where our fans are at the moment, we feel like we are on the verge of something special. I actually think that someone is going to get hit by us soon... i wouldnt be suprised if WH take a whacking on saturday.

[MC11]

Realist?? Penknives to gun fights, trying to hold on to 1-0 leads, surrendering to a shocking Liverpool team at wembley. Telling people that top10 is a great achievement for a club like Everton??? Here's the reality - Moyes was a negatively, tactically limited dour manager who's self serving nature earned him a fortune from this club. I think you are a WUM. Fans like you don't deserve to have a manager like Martinez, probably best off supporting a Sam Allardyce team.

All Martinez has changed is possession based and building play from the back four. I'd love to see the stats on chances created to last season, because up front it really has been a similar scenario. Under Moyes we really did play some decent stuff having Fellaini in the side did not help at all in terms of build up play. Moyes was cautious because he knew what he had. He was limited in areas.

 

Let's get one thing straight. I believe in Martinez philosophy - it's the way to go. But I think he's going to struggle to go beyond without real hard investment into his squad.

 

Martinez also has a much better squad at his disposal IMO.

[Matt]

your not gonna get fans on this site with that M. they care more about the football side than the business side. Thats why this is the only site i actually stay at.

 

I see you original point in that we have been through the same scenario many times, going on a run, building expectations and then falling short. But at the same time i think you have to have an appreciation for the football we are playing and the roots that are being built. Roots can grow! thats what we have now.. the possibility of growing where under Moyes we seemed to be stagnating. And trust me you can look back at my posts.... i was a Moyes fan.

 

I really feel that with the same team and manager we would have struggled this season. You have to imporve every year just to maintain. If you stay the same you fall behind, and i for one was worried that we would struggle this season. What i have witnessed is fresh optimism. A change in the way we play and are percieved by others.

 

I think this is where our fans are at the moment, we feel like we are on the verge of something special. I actually think that someone is going to get hit by us soon... i wouldnt be suprised if WH take a whacking on saturday.

This is where I disagree, because as Ive said, we played some great football under Moyes, who invested in the youth system (even if most didnt make it to the 1st team) a fair bit - we have the likes of Stones and Green brought in under his instruction - setting up roots

 

I also agree with Miguel, possession passing back and forth across our 18 yard box isnt pretty to me, its boring. The intricate play we see in the opposition half without end product because we miss a striker, could also be seen often as well under Moyes, as could the trianlge play. Im convinced we wouldve finished between 5-7th under Moyes as well.

 

The big change, the one Im most grateful for, is Martinezs optimism and his mentality towards our club. Thats the biggest change and this season Ive never once dreaded going behind, Anfield excepted, because I knew we would never give up. Whilst we never gave up under Moyes too (last season we were only 2nd to Utd from coming from behind to win, usually at the last minute) it was always stressful watching it. Martinez has given me a renewed confidence in the team again, partly because hes so damn charismatic, but mostly because he fears noone, and we shouldnt fear anyone. Forget Carpe Diem, he plays Carpe jugulum!

 

That for me makes up for the pissing about passing that drives me nuts. I understand the "I accept playing pretty and losing rather winning ugly" but I dont accept it. Moyes knew how to win ugly, Martinez needs to learn that, to adapt sometimes to the game rather than relentlessly trying to impose our style all the time. There has to be a balance - 80% imposing our style but 20% kicking lumps, hoofball, etc. when required. When he does get that balance, something I completely believe he will do, we will lose him to the likes of Barcelona.

[Matt]

All Martinez has changed is possession based and building play from the back four. I'd love to see the stats on chances created to last season, because up front it really has been a similar scenario. Under Moyes we really did play some decent stuff having Fellaini in the side did not help at all in terms of build up play. Moyes was cautious because he knew what he had. He was limited in areas.

 

Let's get one thing straight. I believe in Martinez philosophy - it's the way to go. But I think he's going to struggle to go beyond without real hard investment into his squad.

 

Martinez also has a much better squad at his disposal IMO.

Ive been told by Optastats that my application for data has been accepted, but not sure what form it will come in. I will share as soon as I can, because I partly agree with you and its been bugging me all season the amnesia of some how we perfomed under Moyes.

 

I still think Martinez has improved us dramatically though.

[MC11]

Here's the stats from Squawaka last season and this season. The season has not ended but there's not many differences to be fair.

 

The chances created is below last season on average though.

Edited February 25, 2014 by MiguelCotto

[Newty82]

Here here behave.

 

Of course the proper judgement comes at the end of the season. But right now we are "Same old Everton" we've dropped off the pace - just like last season. Until that changes we are on a level playing field in terms of position and the cup run.

 

If you want to really get into it, tell me how he's done a better job than Moyes so far. Forget the football, let's talk about the business end of things. League position and cup runs.....

Im a nice calm laid back type of guy...but you are testing me here!!!

 

So, you want me to 'get right into it'? I've said it before, how the hell can you compare a 10/11 year era to a 9 month one?!!! You say to talk about 'the business end, cup runs and league positions'....Martinez hasnt had a full season yet!!!For fucks sake...how can that be compared?!!! Tell you what a fair comparison is...in 10 years time!!!

 

Im no Moyes hater by the way. But Im sick of the constant shitty little comparisons. Thanks Moyes for what you did...for the first 7/8 years...but it was no 'golden era'. We still won fuck all. Thanks for doing what any football manager is supposed to do.

 

The things I have noticed so far under Martinez is the more positive approach, the 'can do' attitude rather than the 'ooooh, might do, its going to be really difficult, probably cant' attitude. And thats from the players too. The football is a work in progress, and is progressing nicely. The average attendances are as high as they have been for many years.

 

Honestly, I just cant see why some of you are trying to pick this apart after just 9 months. Its not proper support and Im glad its in the minority.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Question.

If out team had stayed the same as last year and we had kept Moyes..... Where so you think we would have finished?

 

Do you think.K we would have improved or struggled to keep with the teams above and around us?

I reckon we would probably have been about 7th in the league, we would probably have pathetically capitulated in the league cup and maybe even made it to the QF of the FA Cup

 

We would have started out with CL aspirations but they would have evaporated rapidly at the first sight of a few injuries

 

The possession stats wouldn't have been as good though !

[Hafnia]

I reckon we would probably have been about 7th in the league, we would probably have pathetically capitulated in the league cup and maybe even made it to the QF of the FA Cup

 

We would have started out with CL aspirations but they would have evaporated rapidly at the first sight of a few injuries

 

The possession stats wouldn't have been as good though !

Add in that:-

 

Barkley would be at Tranmere, Heitinga would be Gibson's cover, Deulofeu would be at Lazio, fellaini would be strolling round the goodison pitch and we would be doing the same old dance.